The golden rule: The royal law.....

[Georges]

For my friend Unread typo....

From the http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com

GOLDEN RULE, THE:

By this name is designated the saying of Jesus (Matt. vii. 12): "All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them." In James ii. 8 it is called "the royal law." It has been held to be the fundamental canon of morality.In making this announcement, Jesus is claimed to have transcended the limitations of Jewish law and life. The fact is, however, that this fundamental principle, like almost if not quite all the "logia" attributed to Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount, had been proclaimed authoritatively in Israel. In the instructions given by Tobit to his son Tobias (Book of Tobit, iv.), after admonishing him to love his brethren, the father proceeds to urge upon the son to have heed of all his doings and to show himself of good breeding ("derek ereẓ") in all his conduct. "And what is displeasing to thyself, that do not unto any other" (verse 15). Again, there is the well-known anecdote in which Hillel explains to a would-be proselyte that the maxim "not to do unto one's fellow what is hateful to oneself" is the foundation of Judaism, the rest being no more than commentary (Shab. 31a).

As you can see Red....the royal law is Torah....or the essence of Torah...

 

[unred typo]

Georges wrote: As you can see Red....the royal law is Torah....or the essence of Torah…

Yup, that’s right, my friend. I don’t think that there is any law that can be higher than the essence of the Torah, love one another and treat others as you would have them treat you. That’s what Jesus taught. What more do we need?

 

[Georges]

Georges wrote: As you can see Red....the royal law is Torah....or the essence of Torah…

Yup, that’s right, my friend. I don’t think that there is any law that can be higher than the essence of the Torah, love one another and treat others as you would have them treat you. That’s what Jesus taught. What more do we need?

I'm a little confused.....in our PM's I thought you had stated that Jesus' Commandments superceded the Torah....as if they were 2 different set's of commandments.

I submitted that they are one and the same....summed up in "The Golden Rule".

Jesus said....

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

James said...

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Tobit (OT Apocrapha)

5 "Through all your days, my son, keep the Lord in mind, and suppress every desire to sin or to break his commandments. Perform good works all the days of your life, and do not tread the paths of wrongdoing.
6 For if you are steadfast in your service, your good works will bring success, not only to you, but also to all those who live uprightly.
7 "Give alms from your possessions. Do not turn your face away from any of the poor, and God's face will not be turned away from you.
8 Son, give alms in proportion to what you own. If you have great wealth, give alms out of your abundance; if you have but little, distribute even some of that. But do not hesitate to give alms;
9 you will be storing up a goodly treasure for yourself against the day of adversity.
10 Almsgiving frees one from death, and keeps one from going into the dark abode.
11 Alms are a worthy offering in the sight of the Most High for all who give them.
12 "Be on your guard, son, against every form of immorality, and above all, marry a woman of the lineage of your forefathers. Do not marry a stranger who is not of your father's tribe, because we are sons of the prophets. My boy, keep in mind Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our fathers from of old: all of them took wives from among their own kinsmen and were blessed in their children. Remember that their posterity shall inherit the land.
13 Therefore, my son, love your kinsmen. Do not be so proudhearted toward your kinsmen, the sons and daughters of your people, as to refuse to take a wife for yourself from among them. For in such arrogance there is ruin and great disorder. Likewise, in worthlessness there is decay and dire poverty, for worthlessness is the mother of famine.
14 "Do not keep with you overnight the wages of any man who works for you, but pay him immediately. If you thus behave as God's servant, you will receive your reward. Keep a close watch on yourself, my son, in everything you do, and discipline yourself in all your conduct.
15 Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.
16 "Give to the hungry some of your bread, and to the naked some of your clothing. Whatever you have left over, give away as alms; and do not begrudge the alms you give.
17 Be lavish with your bread and wine at the burial of the virtuous, but do not share them with sinners.
18 "Seek counsel from every wise man, and do not think lightly of any advice that can be useful.
19 At all times bless the Lord God, and ask him to make all your paths straight and to grant success to all your endeavors and plans. For no pagan nation possesses good counsel, but the Lord himself gives all good things. If the Lord chooses, he raises a man up; but if he should decide otherwise, he casts him down to the deepest recesses of the nether world. So now, my son, keep in mind my commandments, and never let them be erased from your heart.

and of course Rabbi Hillel....pre-Jesus....

A certain heathen came to Shammai and said to him, "Make me a proselyte, on condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot." Thereupon he repulsed him with the rod which was in his hand. When he went to Hillel, he said to him, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole Torah; all the rest of it is commentary; go and learn."

Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Are we in agreement....the Law of Christ, and the Royal Law are the Torah?

Did I misunderstand or do you consider them different?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Don't mean to hijack your thread, George, but I'm not sure how else to get your attention. I sent you a PM several days ago and also attempted to give you a wave on another thread. To no avail. So, hopefully, this might be third time lucky.

Would you please send me the info regarding Paul that you've been advertising for a while? I would much appreciate it. If sending it via a PM isn't convenient then you will find my email address in the PM that I sent to you.

Thanks.

 

[Georges]

Sorry...I had,'t got the pm's....but I will send it (the pdf) to you (email) in the AM.

So far the only one to have carried on a pm dialog is Unredtypo....He has written me concerning the first 5 chapters....He still defends Paul (I not quite sure how/why) but he has another 13 chapters to defend....Still, I enjoy his pm's...Actually, he is the epitome of how an antagonist (good term) should debate....others should take lessons from his style. I think he may change his mind by the end....there is only so many times you can wink :wink: at something before you are convinced...and maybe more than one sit down reading...

The reason for this thread is based on some of our pm conversation concerning the pdf....

Again, sorry for not sendng it....I honestly didn't get your pm....

Back to the OP.....

 

[unred typo]

George wrote: I'm a little confused.....in our PM's I thought you had stated that Jesus' Commandments superceded the Torah....as if they were 2 different set's of commandments.
I submitted that they are one and the same....summed up in "The Golden Rule".
Jesus said....
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

James said...
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Are we in agreement....the Law of Christ, and the Royal Law are the Torah?
Did I misunderstand or do you consider them different?

I’m sorry if I confused you, George. (Writing to these boards is more my punishment than my calling I guess :wink:…maybe you all need to be punished too. :-D )

We are in agreement that the Spirit of the Torah and the Law of Christ are the same. I suppose where we disagree, and I don’t know why, is that I believe that Jesus took the principle of love in the torah:

15 Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.
16 "Give to the hungry some of your bread, and to the naked some of your clothing. Whatever you have left over, give away as alms; and do not begrudge the alms you give.
17 Be lavish with your bread and wine at the burial of the virtuous, but do not share them with sinners.

And brought it to a higher plane:

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.[/b]

I’m not really sure which of the commands are part of the Torah that are not specifically taught by Jesus. I have asked several of those who believe we are supposed to follow Torah as Christians what those commands are that Jesus didn’t explicitly teach, but so far have not seen an answer.

So I would say that the law of Christ covers the Torah law of love, but the Torah does not reach to the depths and heights of the love taught by Christ. We do agree that the essence of the Torah law is love and that is the same thing that Jesus taught. Is that clearer or does it still seem like a contradiction?

 

[Georges]

George wrote: I'm a little confused.....in our PM's I thought you had stated that Jesus' Commandments superceded the Torah....as if they were 2 different set's of commandments.
I submitted that they are one and the same....summed up in "The Golden Rule".
Jesus said....
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

James said...
Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Are we in agreement....the Law of Christ, and the Royal Law are the Torah?
Did I misunderstand or do you consider them different?

I’m sorry if I confused you, George. (Writing to these boards is more my punishment than my calling I guess :wink:…maybe you all need to be punished too. :-D )

We are in agreement that the Spirit of the Torah and the Law of Christ are the same. I suppose where we disagree, and I don’t know why, is that I believe that Jesus took the principle of love in the torah:

15 Do to no one what you yourself dislike. Do not drink wine till you become drunk, nor let drunkenness accompany you on your way.
16 "Give to the hungry some of your bread, and to the naked some of your clothing. Whatever you have left over, give away as alms; and do not begrudge the alms you give.
17 Be lavish with your bread and wine at the burial of the virtuous, but do not share them with sinners.

And brought it to a higher plane:

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.[/b]

OK...I'm not sure if it is a "higher level" or rather an expounding on Torah concepts (reteaching using the same concept with different terms)...but in any regard...do we agree that Jesus does not negate the Torah? Do we agree, that Jesus builds on a base that is structured on Torah?

I’m not really sure which of the commands are part of the Torah that are not specifically taught by Jesus.

I think that Jesus taught as what was applicable to the situation...I think Jesus taught Torah by his teaching/debate style. As far as commands of the Torah, there isn't much to teach on.....examples like "Thou shall not steal" don't need much of an explanation....

I have asked several of those who believe we are supposed to follow Torah as Christians what those commands are that Jesus didn’t explicitly teach, but so far have not seen an answer.

Not sure what you mean above, but will answer to what I think you mean...Keep in mind, there were no Christians....there were only Jews....Pharisee's and Sadducee's and Essenes....I'm not sure the Nazarenes were considered a group until the Pentecost after the resurrection. So Jesus would have been expounding his Torah teaching on the Jewish masses...those people who should have been involved religiously (and Torah aware) to some extent. I believe Jesus was sent to reach the lost sheep of Israel, so they (Israel) could be the examples of how to live righteously....Actually, that's how it will be in the Messianic Millennium but thats another thread subject.

So I would say that the law of Christ covers the Torah law of love, but the Torah does not reach to the depths and heights of the love taught by Christ.

I can agree with that statement....if you agree that Christ didn't negate, or abrogate Torah...

We do agree that the essence of the Torah law is love and that is the same thing that Jesus taught. Is that clearer or does it still seem like a contradiction?

Clearer and I think we have reached a common ground of understanding.