The Great Apostasy

[Capt. Kirk]

I've been watching the Church for 40 years and have compared it to the Great Apostasy/the
Falling Away of 2.Thess.2.3 ff. for the same amount of time.

I'm trying to come to an understanding of the dynamic involved. Hence, my question:

Do you feel the Great Apostasy is event driven or the result of a process? After two score
years I still don't have a clue. I'd appreciate any input from those who have thought about this.

Thanks

p.s. due to work constraints, I may not be able to participate in your input until Wednesday.
Thanks for understanding. CK

 

[samuel]

I feel its a two part process, or some of both a process and circumstances. One the church is growing weaker from the liberalism that infects it. And Matthew 24 gives us a pretty good view of more, and more persecution that will come on the Professing church as time passes. At present I compare the Church to that of Revelation 3:14, the church of the Laodiceans. We are living in a time the Church is bringing in teachers who will tell them what they want to hear, not necessarily what they should be hearing.

Most of our Churches are well off, and the people up until now, have been living the Great American dream. So the well off, and blind situation fits most very well. I think it is only a matter of a short time, until we will witness a full blown Apostasy. Other Country's are much closer, than the Churches here are. If you take a world wide view of things; its pretty sad.

 

[Capt. Kirk]

Samuel....Appreciate the input.

I tend to think along the same lines as you do. However, there is a hint of an event-driven
situation.

Christ asked parenthetically/rhetorically, "Will there be any faith when I return?"

I'm not a Greek linguist, but I have read those that are and their explanation is that this is
syntax that suggests an answer of "no." This means that, overtly at least, Christianity has
more or less been discredited and that something has "proven" it to be a false doctrine.

I have wracked my brain and the only scenario I come up with refer's to Paul's statement,
"Unless there's a resurrection, we're all lost...." or something to that effect.

Thus, there could be a "body" (notice small case b) found in a tomb with that sign that
says "Here's the king of the Jews." Maybe even a thorny crown. (Repentant thief?)

If it happens, I'll know that 2,000 years ago the Sanhedrin came up with a Plan B to discredit
the resurrection....but it was never implemented. (I guess that should really be Plan b.)

Makes for interesting discussion.

 

[Christian Heretic]

Do you feel the Great Apostasy is event driven or the result of a process? After two score
years I still don't have a clue. I'd appreciate any input from those who have thought about this.

The Process you see that is confusing the issue is the ever growing Laodicean dominance amongst western Christian denominations.

While many so called conservative theologies blame the corruption of the Body of Christ on the so called liberal theologies they are fighting the wrong enemy.

The real enemy in this era is the so called faith movement which delivers a health, wealth and prosperity message which teaches its adherents that all they have to do to obtain health, wealth and prosperity is demand it of God by speaking it, believe in faith that they have it and God must give it to them for God must fulfill that which He has promised to His children in His written Word without fail.

The foundation of these teachings is not even in the Scriptures but comes from the teachings of William Clement Stone and Napoleon Hill in a book written in the 1930s called “Think and Grow Richâ€Â.

I am familiar with a church in the US with over 10,000 members where the leader never speaks about Christ and never offers a salvation message.

This church takes in $70 plus million per yr between church collections and the mail. This church leader sees his ministry as being a Life Coach teaching people how to prosper in this life rather then as a Shepard of God’s flock.

This MAN TEACHES THE SCRIPTURAL PRINCIPLES OF LIFE WITHOUT THE PERSON OF CHRIST BEING INVOLVED because he does not want to be negative.

This church is but one of many today which cater to the fleshly desires of their followers rather then sharing with them the Good News of the Kingdom of God.

These so called faith teachings are the fastest growing groups in today’s Christian Body and this is why our Lord spoke of them as follows.

Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

Mar 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

Those attending these churches do not know that they do not know, they are not just ignorant of their true condition they are convinced that they are not in need of anything and thus are immune to correction. Thus our Lord describes them as follows.

Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth

Being lukewarm is akin to the condition that the Pharisees found them selves in as our Lord walked and preached amongst them.

Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

The Pharisees believed that their righteousness came from their keeping the Law of Moses and that there was no sin in them. Therefore they had no need of the righteousness that Christ was offering them for they already had their own.

The Pharisees like the Laodiceans did not know that they did not know.

While the Laodicean corruption of the Faith is much slower in growth then the Great Apostasy it is in fact the preparer of the ground for the Great Apostasy.

The Great Apostasy itself however is event driven and will begin at a specific and identifiable time. The length of the Great Apostasy is determined by how long after the Great Apostasy begins that our Lord appears too finish His work.

 

[Trump]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul is now getting to the purpose for this second letter. Paul reminded them of his first letter to them, of Christ returning and our gathering back to Him. Because of the misunderstanding that could be drawn from the first letter, he writes the following.

It's important in this final generation that we pay attention for this will happen during our life time. The subject again of this letter is; "our gathering back to Christ".

II Thessalonians 2:2 "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is [the Lord is just] at hand."

Paul doesn't want you to misunderstand what he is about to say. This is why he makes it plain and simple; Paul told them not to confuse what he is saying here with any other teaching, or spirit, or even that first letter from him. This is because there was a confusing part in the first letter where false teachers had crept in and twisted Paul's words. The prime example of this today is the twisting of that first letter by the "rapture theorist", to form the trap that has been set for Christians in this final generation.

Paul is saying, don't let anyone trouble you [confuse you], and tell you that the "day of Christ" is at hand. The "day of Christ [the Lord]" is the day when Jesus Christ will return to earth, and gather His saints to Him. This gathering will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet. This is one of those tradition's of men [false doctrines] that can deceive you.

 

[Trump]

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first. How will we know who he is when he arrives?

 

[Trump]

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is [shall come]."

This beast "thou [John] sawest", was in the first earth age; and is not on this earth now, as it is written in Revelation 12:7. Satan is in heaven being our accuser, and will be cast out to this earth very shortly by Michael.

"And shall ascend out of the bottomless pit; and go into perdition;" Who is he again? He is Satan the Antichrist. Satan is not a man born of woman, but a "supernatural arch angel". In Ezekiel 28 it is written that Satan [Lucifer] is the most beautiful of all God's created beings.

In Isaiah 14:12; "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lu'-ci-fer [day star], son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!" Lucifer then is another name for Satan; he is also called the Dragon, the serpent, and many other names accounting for the roles he plays, and in our generation he will also be called the "Antichrist".

Isaiah 14:13; "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

Satan is saying, I'm going to be God, and be above the sons [stars] of God. The "mount of the congregation" is on mount Zion; and that is "the side of the north" where Jesus Christ's temple will be.

Isaiah 14:14; "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High." Satan is saying again, he is going to be God.

Isaiah 14:15; "Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell [sheol], to the sides of the pit."

Who is this that is going into the pit? Who is this son of perdition? It is Lucifer, who is Satan, the "son of perdition". The "son of perdition" of II Thessalonians 2:3 is none other than Satan himself, coming to earth to play the role of Jesus Christ. Paul then is saying that the true Christ, Jesus Christ, will not return to earth until this "apostasy" takes place first.

Isaiah 14:16; "They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Following Jesus Christ's return to earth, and when the Antichrist [Satan] is safely in the pit; the world will wonder; how could Satan have shook all the kingdoms? They simply can't believe that they were deceived into believing this man to be God. Are you going to be one of those deceived into believing Satan is the Christ, or do you know the difference?

Paul is saying to the Thessalonians that Jesus Christ will not come, or will their be a gathering of the saints until you see the Antichrist [son of perdition] first. It takes a lot of guts to take the word of a false preacher, over Paul, Jesus, John, Isaiah, and a whole host of other prophets and disciples. This "apostasy" [falling away] is caused by the "son of perdition", and you will see him live and in person, very shortly.

 

[samuel]

I think if you consider some event, that would contribute to a great falling away, or apostasy. You might consider the wide teaching, and belief that the church will see no times of trouble. The Lord will come first.

So when the people, finally wake up to the fact! this is not true, it will cause much confusion and rebellion against the church, and even scripture. As it has been taught by their leaders. There is no pre-tribulation Rapture indicated in the scripture, on the contrary, everything points to the Church seeing at least the first half. Some believe all of it, but I see where we are not saved to the wrath of God, and will be out of here, before the judgment of the sinful falls on this old world.

PS. I think if the pre-trib rapture were true, we should already be gone. :o

 

[Capt. Kirk]

(to Samuel)

You're pretty well verbalizing my opinion. Having been personally escorted out of three of
God's "Houses of Worship" and indirectly asked to leave three others in my area, as well
as having been 'banned' from two other "Christian" web sites, I'm very aware of the sad
state of today's church in the U.S. My brother in Virginia can't even find a place to worship
that fits even mediocre Biblical standards....the last three he attended would have a
Sunday sermon without one Scriptural reference!

This is a great forum....most of its members wouldn't be allowed to worship in my area
because you're not 'religious' enough. And I live in Southern California!

The Name it and Claim it movement is hideous. I have yet to meet one of its adherents
who can give me a one sentence definition of Biblical faith. Sad.

 

[samuel]

Religion is the worst!and most fatal sickness, that has ever invaded Christianity. Look at the Pharisees, the most religious men ever, and our Lord called them sons of satan.

 

[Trump]

Religion is the worst!and most fatal sickness, that has ever invaded Christianity. Look at the Pharisees, the most religious men ever, and our Lord called them sons of satan.
Religion is the worst!and most fatal sickness, that has ever invaded Christianity. Look at the Pharisees, the most religious men ever, and our Lord called them sons of satan.

I Corinthians Chapter 3, Paul answers the church at Corinth as to the problems that have crept into their worship. This chapter will address the divisions that are plaguing the congregation in to groups that identify themselves with men. Remember there are four clicks that have formed; the group that says they are of Paul, the one identifying themselves with Apollos, the Jews of the legalizing clan that follow Cephas [Peter], and the group that just doesn't follow any man but claims of Christ. This then is the start of denominationalism, and Paul told us that it is wrong to make divisions in the body of Christ.

Even today we have those that claim to be of Luther, or Calvin, and some claim to be with John or Charles Westley and say they are Methodist, while others claim to be a democracy in their worship. Some identify with Baptism, while others with speaking in tongues, which they have no understanding of; and still others call themselves Unified, Federated, or Reformed. What the name does is single their mind to a small part of God's Word and excludes the rest. The bottom line to all this, is that they have all closed their minds to what Paul is telling us here, and they simply like to pick and chose the selected verses that tickle their fancy.

Each time you have a new group with a new idea you have a new denomination breaking away from its body, and focusing on some other point of the Scripture that they have determined to be more that the others. If you want to understand this third chapter, you cannot let these fractions be your rule of the thumb. You simply cannot understand the entire Word of God if you allow divisions, which is strife enter into any part of studying God's Word. There is only One Word, and that is God's Word, written by the hand of His prophets in the manuscripts, and those words are what is important.

True Christianity frees you from denominationalism. True Christianity which is the studying of God's entire Word delivers you and sets you free from denominationalism. It is that simple.

 

[codenamehsk]

If you want to know about the great apostasy then study the seven churches and the seven seals.
In acts Paul told the church of ephesus that it was going to be in trouble as soon as he leaves. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." Acts 20:28,29

Ephesus 100 AD
This church had the pure gospel which was going to the world with power, symbolized by the white horse [1st seal]. They had the ability to discern between truth and error. "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:" Rev 2:2

Smyrna 100-313 AD
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [/ christians], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Rev 2:9,10
Since the gospel was going to the world with power satan decided to counteract it by persecuting the church. This also depicted by the red horse [ 2nd seal], the red represent the blood flowing from the persecutions.

Pergamos 313-538 AD
This is where the "falling away" began.
"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate." Rev 2:14,15
The 1st church "hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans", but this one had doctrines of the Nicolaitans. This church compromised, so the apostasy began. This is further illustrated by the black horse [3rd seal]. The 1st church had a pure/white gospel, but this one has black/tainted gospel. Here, wheat/Jesus and barley/resurrection were scarce and oil/holy spirit and wine/doctrine were also in trouble.

Thyatira 538-1517 AD
This period is the saddest in history because once you have accepted compromise it grows like a cancer.
"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest (Heb = eao)that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Rev 2:20
Heb = eao eh-ah'-o:- permit or leave alone
During this time christianity married paganism just like Ahab, king of israel (children of god) married Jezebel (a pagan). The 2nd commandment was removed and idolatry was allowed into the church. Men elevated themselves to the position of God [some became vicar of christ] The bible was banned, and it became a mortal sin to read the bible. Hence it is represented by a dead horse [4th seal]. Christians were killed by the sword, by hunger of the word and the kingdoms of this world. During this time the gospel was dead. Christianity was removed from its cradle and replaced by a new religion which denies the divinity of Jesus. This is the great apostasy, no other apostasy in history can compare to this one. It is shocking to see people overlook this period. A period known as the dark ages.

The following churches brought the light into the world with the reformation.
Sardis 1517-1798 AD
Philidelphia 1798-1844 AD
Laodicea 1844- 2nd coming of christ

 

[Joshleet]

We need to take the Second Letter to the thessalonians as a prophetic warning. They percived that they were already in the day of the Lord. I see this scenario being played out in the end time.

• Certian events are going to occur PRIOR TO The reign of the false Messiah, that will appear to be full prophetic fulfillment. The Ezekiel 38 war will be accepted as the final Battle. When this occurs, the false messiah will have events he can point to (event driven) to proclaim all is fulfilled. This would certianly create the opportunity for the "falling away"!!! Re -read the Sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, and ask yourself the following question. Is this truly the day of the Lord, or is this a group of People who hide from God, Who are only proclaiming what they are seeing, and experieincing (event driven) accepting this as full prophetic fulfillment?

As you go through the sixth seal, ask yourself some more questions... Is Jesus returning Here? What is God sitting on, a horse or a throne? Why do these folks hide from God?? What kind of a relationship do they have with our Lord? What other events occur in the sixth seal? According to Joel 2:30, when does the blood red moon event occur, in relation to the day of the Lord? If the blood red moon event occurs BEFORE the day of the Lord comes, then why are those who hide from God proclaiming IT IS the day of the Lord? What is the "strong delusion" the Lord stated he would briing on those that "love not the truth"?

 

[Vic C.]

.. I have wracked my brain and the only scenario I come up with refer's to Paul's statement,
"Unless there's a resurrection, we're all lost...." or something to that effect....

Here you are:

1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

One of the best chapters in the NT.


Anyway, I'm sort of inline with the way you and Samuel are thinking. But... if what codenamehsk says above is true, than the Apostasy started in 1844, for the Laodicean church was the "cursed" church, or church age. New age thinking will infiltrate the Church in ways we never thought possible.

Reminds me of a verse from a song by "Casting Crowns":

What if the life that we pursue
Came from a hunger for the truth
What if the family turned to Jesus
Stopped asking Oprah what to do

from "What if His People Prayed"

 

[Joshleet]

The decisions and actions mankind makes and takes in the end time will be event driven. The great apostacy will be no different. Mankind will have a very good reason for this to occur. Just like the believers in II thess, they thought they had already entered the day of the Lord. It will be no different in the end time.

• The conclusions mankind makes (including the church) will be the greatest factor that leads to the falling away. Put yourself in this scenario. You have Just witnessed an incredible Battle in the middle east. At the climax of this battle, many what we would deem "supernatural entities" have manifested themselves, This alone will send one into a hasty conclusion to what is truly happening. The amount of destruction brought on the world (1/2 of humanity) has been horrific! Truly this has been the day of the Lord, Correct? And truly thisd MUST be the returned Messiah!!!!! [list:wiwp9vxi]

The Lord stated he would return at an "hour that ye think not". He also promised that he would "keep" us from the "hour of temptation". How do we reconcile these two statemwnts? There is only one way.. The church will enter into a period of time most will think all prophecy has been fulfilled, and this IS the returned Messiah. If this is true, this would be considered entering into the Day of the Lord. This would not only be an "hour of Temptation" to a believer, but also create an "hour that you think not" the son of man cometh. Nobody wuld be looking for the Lord to return, if you think you are already at the marriage supper, and the Lord has returned. Jesus warned us about this...

Matthew 24:6 And ye shall here of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, BUT THE END IS NOT YET.

We must be very careful and discerning about events when they occur, as we enter into these final days. If we are not, then we will find ourselves DECIEVING OURSELVES INTO ACCEPTING CERTIAN EVENTS THAT WILL ONLY APPEAR TO BE FULL PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT. [/list:u:wiwp9vxi]

 

[turnorburn]

Joshleet says:

We must be very careful and discerning about events when they occur, as we enter into these final days. If we are not, then we will find ourselves DECEIVING OURSELVES INTO ACCEPTING CERTAIN EVENTS THAT WILL ONLY APPEAR TO BE FULL PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT.

Things are just heating up the worst is yet to come, if you have been putting it off you had best make time to get right with God

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


turnorburn