Hi Cameron and any interested people,
Here are a few verses and situations that I feel indicate a past great trib. Some I may have listed before on this site.......
The great tribulation is a time of distress, time of trouble, which is a once in creation occurance and it happens just before the parousia which is the coming of the son of man on the clouds as I use the word.
The Olivet lists a sequence of events as follows:
1)abomination appears in the Holy Place
2)there is a flight of the people
3)the great tribulation
4)a celestial display which includes
5)The parousia
Since Jesus made a prophecy that day about the destruction of the temple and He is replying to a question asked by His deciples, it is fitting to consider the Holy Place in that very temple. The temple they just walked out of.
Hebrews 9
. 2A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place.
That Holy Place no longer existed after 70 AD so if the abomination was going to appear in that Holy Place it had to be prior to 70 AD.
Jesus instructed His followers to flee Judea to avoid this great tribulation that would come. Judea ceased to exist in 70 AD as well.
In 2 Thess 2 we see mention of a man of lawlessness...
3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
I consider this to be the abomination that is set up in the holy Place of the temple or as Luke refers to an army surrounding Jerusalem. I see this as a abomination that causes desolation and there was indeed damage caused to that very temple in 70 AD.
Further to that Paul tells us it is a 'man' so here we have this verse:
7For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.
Here the man of lawlessness is being held back at the time of the writing. That means it has to be revealed in his(,man of lawlessness) lifetime or he will be dead and not much of a man of lawlessness.
My read on the verse is that the Holy Spirit is holding back the invasion or rebellion by the Roman army until the time is right for the great tribulation.
When this abomination appears the people are suposed to flee to avoid the great tribulation. Josephus records people leaving Judea and going to a place called Pella in the mountains before 70 AD.
You are all familiar with the argument of winter travel being easy today for pregnant women and winter travel is no hardship any more, plus there is no 'sabath day walk' rule that is going to affect anyone any more. All those things Jesus asked for prayer for to help HIs followers out of Judea had their complications then but not now.
The Great Tribulation..........
I understand that many here consider the Great trib to be separate from the wrath, but for this discussion it doesn't matter. The wrath follows the trib as I understand it and they would all have to be over before the parousia. Personally I consider them to be the exact same thing, but let's use the local understanding here.
Because the wrath is in there as well it is proper to look at who might suffer that wrath of God.
Here is one group Christ isn't too happy with....
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
The temple that is removed in 70 AD is mentioned again...
16"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.
It gets downright emphatic at times.....
33"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Then the audience is again positively identified...
36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
These verse further cement the obvious....
37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'
Following the Great Tribulation is the celestial display which includes the parousia.
Verses which indicate that Jesus returns in the first century are........
Of course the "all these things hapen before this generation passes .........verse
Matthew 10
23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
We have discussed this a bit but the literal of the verse and the chapter say that the apostles won't get thru certain cities before He comes.
John 21
23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
A rumor developed that Jesus had said John would never die. Jesus never said that, Jesus had said if He wanted John to live until He returned......Jesus knew the parousia was within this generation.
Paul said,"15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep."
Paul included himself or some he was writing to a being eligible to be alive at the parousia.
Paul also wrote," 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,....."
The requirment of sleeping in the dust is over at the parousia, Paul stated that WE will not all sleep. That means that someone, either Himself or some reading that letter at that time in history had to live until the parousia.
Another verse that spells out that Jesus would come many years ago is in John's letter to the church in Thyatira.
Rev 2
Many in THyatira were following Jezebel which was not good. However, some were holding on to better lifestyles and were a bit more pleasing to God. Jesus said to them,"25Only hold on to what you have until I come."
So that leaves us wondering, did Jesus come to these people in their lifetime or are those people still holding? John can't write a letter to Thyatira anymore because there is no such place.
These are a few of the verses that I used to determine when the Great tribulation was. There are verses which obviuousl haven't happened yet like....
the seas never turned to blood.....no three evil frogs appeared.............I highly doubt there was hundred pound hailstones, but all these things I consider to be the hyperbole, the ssymbolic and the words just used to impress, or please or demonstrate.
The WORD was with God in the beginning................
Cocerning full preterism, I don't qualify to be a card carrying on of them either because I consider my second coming experience to be a future event. Full preterists have a page somewhere with 101 verses that indicate a past Olivet. I'll look for a link.
The stuff I put up is not cut and pasted from any full pret or partial pret site. It is just the results of my own 40???????????years of fumbling thru the bible.
noble6
