The Great -You have to take it- debate

[RichardBurger]

The Great -You have to take it- debate:

It is said that faith is not faith unless it has works as a result. Many use the statement “you have to reach out and take it†as an example of having to do the work of taking the free gift of salvation. --- That is the way a man might see it. However;

“Faith is the substance of things not seen:†Heb 11:1-2
1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. NKJV

How can you reach out, with human hands,, and take something that is not seen with the human eye? A child of God does not reach out and take the free gift of salvation, by God’s grace, by physical human actions (works).

An example: ----- A friend of mine knows I need a car to get me to the store and back so he puts his car in my driveway with gas and keys in it. He then calls me to tell me about it. --- I don’t have to look in the driveway to see if there is a car there because I trust in my friend. He wouldn’t tell me it was there if it wasn’t. In other words I have faith, trust, and confidence in my friend. --- The car is a gift, given to me by a friend. It is there ready for me to use. But I don’t need to use it right now. My friend has been a wonderful friend and now I am going to tell everyone I know about him.

----- My friend is Jesus. The car is His salvation. ---

This is important:
What if my wife tells me “how can I be sure the car is there unless I go and see.†If I listen to her and go see then I have lost my faith, trust, confidence in what my friend told me. My efforts to go and see has not proved my faith. It has proven my lack of faith.

What if my wife tells me I need to go and pay my friend some money for the rental of his car and I do as she asks? Now I have replaced my friends offer of a gift with a payment and that makes his gift a paid for item. It is no longer a gift.

I believe, I have faith, I trust, I have confidence, in the work that God’s Son, Jesus, accomplished on the cross. When I pass from this life into the next, His work on the cross will allow me to be in heaven with my heavenly Father. It is then that I will need to use His free gift of salvation. It is always mine to use when it becomes necessary.

Doing work necessitates a payment for that work. If a person thinks that God owes them something for what they physically do, then to them, God owes them a payment. It is work that creates a debt that must be paid to the worker. This is law.

Jesus’ work on the cross was under law and has resulted in God giving Him all power and authority. That is the payment for the work that Jesus did on the cross. Jesus did that work for us, so that we can become children of God “â€by faith in His work.â€â€

Today we are not saved under the law of debt and payment. We are saved by God’s grace given to us by the work of His Son on the cross. Given to us because He loves us enough to make a plan of salvation that saves sinners and all men are sinners.

 

[Nathan]

Very nice. I used to not understand the idea behind the "the free gift is yours for the taking".

It was not till I fully understood what Paul says in Ephesians, that we are saved through faith, and that it...faith...in its self...is not even something we do or we produce in us, it is a gift from God.

But, it is a real gift, that we have here and now. Faith is what we have now, salvation is what we will 'trade' our faith in for in the kingdom.

God puts, notice what I said, God puts the faith in us. We either choose to believe and use that faith, or we choose to disregard that faith.

Works, deeds, fruit...are the signs of what is in us. If it is Gods 'implanted' faith, it will produce good fruit. There are no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts' about it. The scripture references are out of this world on the fact that we will see 'evidence' of the faith in us.

If the faith is not in us. If it did not take root. If we choose to rather follow our own 'sight' or dare I even say our own 'faith'? If that is the case, it too will produce 'evidence' of that choice. Bad fruit.

Simple really.

But I know that is not what you are stating. I believe you are stating that some think we 'do' something in order to 'earn' it?

I think you might have miss quoted Hebrews 11:1.

KJV "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

ESV "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

See that? The faith that we have is that one day Jesus will come again, we will inherit eternal life, and we will live for ever with Him in eternity.

The evidence of those things we have not seen yet, ie; Jesus, eternal life, the kingdom made with out hands...the evidence of these things is the fruit that bears in our lives.

For instance. If we say we have this faith, the faith that God gives us, because we just believe it [which is all true], and we hate our brother for whatever reason, how can we say we believe in the goodness of God, who we have not seen, but not show it to others?

To use your example. Your right, if you have to go out there to see for yourself that the car is there, you have just doubted the fact that he gave it to you.

However, God says "I want you to use this car RIGHT NOW. Use it, go help the homeless person down the road go to the doctor. Go drive those kids to church on Sunday morning. Take your wife out to dinner and show her the kind of love I have for you. Its yours, but hey, hang on to it...do not trade it for something else...keep it and one day its going to be worth even more than you can ever imagine!!!"

"You think this car is great...yea...its brand spanking new...but there is something much better than that...I can't even describe it to you...there is no way I could even show it too you...just keep what I have given to you for now, and later give it back and you will not be disappointed...but USE the car now...do not keep it all kept up inside a garage waiting for me to come back..."

ESV 2Corinthians 6:1-2 "Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says, "In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Does using the car say you do not have faith that a greater car is going to be given? On the contrary, He said to use it, so if you did not use it then you would not be trusting that something better is coming.

God does not give us nothing now. He gives us faith that carries us to the eternal reward, salvation. I am sorry but you do not have a car of salvation sitting in the driveway. You do indeed have a friend named Jesus, He has handed you...notice...HE HAS HANDED YOU...the keys to the car of faith. Are you going to drive it on to salvation?

 

[RichardBurger]

Very nice. I used to not understand the idea behind the "the free gift is yours for the taking".

It was not till I fully understood what Paul says in Ephesians, that we are saved through faith, and that it...faith...in its self...is not even something we do or we produce in us, it is a gift from God.

But, it is a real gift, that we have here and now. Faith is what we have now, salvation is what we will 'trade' our faith in for in the kingdom.

God puts, notice what I said, God puts the faith in us. We either choose to believe and use that faith, or we choose to disregard that faith.

Works, deeds, fruit...are the signs of what is in us. If it is Gods 'implanted' faith, it will produce good fruit. There are no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts' about it. The scripture references are out of this world on the fact that we will see 'evidence' of the faith in us.

If the faith is not in us. If it did not take root. If we choose to rather follow our own 'sight' or dare I even say our own 'faith'? If that is the case, it too will produce 'evidence' of that choice. Bad fruit.

Simple really.

But I know that is not what you are stating. I believe you are stating that some think we 'do' something in order to 'earn' it?

I think you might have miss quoted Hebrews 11:1.

KJV "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

ESV "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

See that? The faith that we have is that one day Jesus will come again, we will inherit eternal life, and we will live for ever with Him in eternity.

The evidence of those things we have not seen yet, ie; Jesus, eternal life, the kingdom made with out hands...the evidence of these things is the fruit that bears in our lives.

For instance. If we say we have this faith, the faith that God gives us, because we just believe it [which is all true], and we hate our brother for whatever reason, how can we say we believe in the goodness of God, who we have not seen, but not show it to others?

To use your example. Your right, if you have to go out there to see for yourself that the car is there, you have just doubted the fact that he gave it to you.

However, God says "I want you to use this car RIGHT NOW. Use it, go help the homeless person down the road go to the doctor. Go drive those kids to church on Sunday morning. Take your wife out to dinner and show her the kind of love I have for you. Its yours, but hey, hang on to it...do not trade it for something else...keep it and one day its going to be worth even more than you can ever imagine!!!"

"You think this car is great...yea...its brand spanking new...but there is something much better than that...I can't even describe it to you...there is no way I could even show it too you...just keep what I have given to you for now, and later give it back and you will not be disappointed...but USE the car now...do not keep it all kept up inside a garage waiting for me to come back..."

ESV 2Corinthians 6:1-2 "Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For he says, "In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation."

Does using the car say you do not have faith that a greater car is going to be given? On the contrary, He said to use it, so if you did not use it then you would not be trusting that something better is coming.

God does not give us nothing now. He gives us faith that carries us to the eternal reward, salvation. I am sorry but you do not have a car of salvation sitting in the driveway. You do indeed have a friend named Jesus, He has handed you...notice...HE HAS HANDED YOU...the keys to the car of faith. Are you going to drive it on to salvation?

IMHO you got it half right. If I ""have"" to drive it then I have to do works.

In my opinion I already have salvation. It is a free gift. There is nothing I HAVE to do to obtain salvation, I already have it. In the story it is setting in the drive way ready for me when I need it.

In the example I said I was going to tell others about my friend and His gift. My witness is all that I will do. I will witness for His gift, not my work of driving the car.

 

[Nathan]

IMHO you got it half right. If I ""have"" to drive it then I have to do works.

In my opinion I already have salvation. It is a free gift. There is nothing I HAVE to do to obtain salvation, I already have it. In the story it is setting in the drive way ready for me when I need it.

In the example I said I was going to tell others about my friend and His gift. My witness is all that I will do. I will witness for His gift, not my work of driving the car.

You are correct!!! You do have salvation by faith...

You do not have hard core possession of it right now...or else you would not need faith.

Faith is the evidence of things...not...seen...

Jesus tells us to use our faith...your mistaking the car in the driveway for salvation when the car is really faith.

But I know, its your story, tell it like you want.

You do not have to work for salvation...anyone that tells you different is a lier.

But if you do not hold fast to the faith He has given you...well...

1Corinthians 15:1 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain."

Hebrews 3:6 "...And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Revelation 2:25 "Only hold fast what you have until I come."

These are all "actions". How do you hold a cup of coffee? Do you believe you are holding it? Or do you have to 'pick it up'?

Ok...so someone puts it into your hand...do you not move your muscles to 'keep' a hold of it? If you do not...what would happen?

No. There is nothing we can do to make God want to give us this gift. There is nothing we can do to earn it. And there is nothing we can do to repay it.

All...all...all...He wants us to do is hold fast to the faith He gave us. Using it as He directs us.

Galatians 5:13 "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

Service requires action.

So back to your story. If your friend calls up and asks you to go and run an errand...are you going to? Or are you going to tell him, "sorry, but if I go out and look at the car, much less drive it, then I wont believe you gave it to me".

You are going to witness for his gift huh? How are you going to do that? If you go outside your going to see the car...lol. Just playing with you.

Seriously. How are you going to witness? What are you going to witness about?

 

[RichardBurger]

You are correct!!! You do have salvation by faith...

You do not have hard core possession of it right now...or else you would not need faith.

Faith is the evidence of things...not...seen...

Jesus tells us to use our faith...your mistaking the car in the driveway for salvation when the car is really faith.

But I know, its your story, tell it like you want.

You do not have to work for salvation...anyone that tells you different is a lier.

But if you do not hold fast to the faith He has given you...well...

1Corinthians 15:1 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain."

Hebrews 3:6 "...And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope"

Hebrews 3:14 "For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

Revelation 2:25 "Only hold fast what you have until I come."

These are all "actions". How do you hold a cup of coffee? Do you believe you are holding it? Or do you have to 'pick it up'?

Ok...so someone puts it into your hand...do you not move your muscles to 'keep' a hold of it? If you do not...what would happen?

No. There is nothing we can do to make God want to give us this gift. There is nothing we can do to earn it. And there is nothing we can do to repay it.

All...all...all...He wants us to do is hold fast to the faith He gave us. Using it as He directs us.

Galatians 5:13 "For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

Service requires action.

So back to your story. If your friend calls up and asks you to go and run an errand...are you going to? Or are you going to tell him, "sorry, but if I go out and look at the car, much less drive it, then I wont believe you gave it to me".

You are going to witness for his gift huh? How are you going to do that? If you go outside your going to see the car...lol. Just playing with you.

Seriously. How are you going to witness? What are you going to witness about?

In all my dealings with people my witness is to the cross. My witness is that everyone who places their faith, trust, confidence and hope in the work of Jesus (God) on the cross will be saved. I state this in all my writings. I have been doing it for many years and will continue to do so in spite of those that try to put me under works. I am free in Christ and I want others to be just as free. I know the results of those that teach works and sinlessness in the flesh.

A tragic story:

When I was about 25 years old I worked for a factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee. One night when I was working the third shift the security guard came and told me that a man was at the gate wanting to talk to me.

It was a fellow worker at the plant who worked on the first shift and he was very distraught about Christianity. He said he wanted to be a Christian but it just didn't seem to work for him.

I found that he had been talking to some Christians that were telling him that if he was a Christian he would stop sinning. He wanted to stop sinning but he said he couldn't because he still had those fleeting thoughts of sin in his mind and, of course he was told that if you think it you have done it in your mind. He wanted to know what I believed about it.

I told him that Jesus came to save those that could not save themselves; to do for them what they could not do, that to believe in Jesus is to believe in what He did on the cross and to trust that it has saved you.

I also told him that I still sin (I was being honest) and that everyone sins. He said what he had been told by other Christians, that if he sinned he was not a Christian and that I must not be one either since I said I still sinned. A week later this young man killed himself.

It is obvious that this young man had emotional problems. It is also obvious that the Holy Spirit was convicting him of his sins so that he would turn to Jesus. But I saw, first hand, what the message of the self-righteous does to those that are seeking to be a Christian. They don't go in themselves (because they still sin too) and they prevent others that would go in from doing so, all because they want to see themselves as better, and more righteous, than others.

Matt 23:11-13
11 "But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 "And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
(NKJ)

If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.

But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.

Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.

 

[Nathan]

If I show anything to the world let it be the love of Jesus Christ for mankind and what He has done on the cross for all that will place their trust (faith) in Him.

But the religious want to make a show that they do not sin any longer.

Now if you wish to say that I should have told him I no longer sinned in the flesh because God has changed me, then I would be bearing false witness just as those that did it to him and those that do it today.

That is a tragic story, I seriously do not like the fact that these things happen.

But the story does not end on the cross brother. That is where it only begins for us who believe. Jesus died for our sins...but He was buried...and He rose again...

To deny these facts are to deny the Gospel. I am not sure if you truly realize that the entirety of the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection. Not just the death.

To just believe in one, and not the others is not true belief. That is the cruel joke that is misleading a lot of people into self righteousness.

His death justifies us before God. He paid our debt on the cross. But...He was buried...

Just as He was buried, we too were buried with Him...Romans 6:4 "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

And as the Paul describes...we were buried so that we too might walk in newness of life. He did not die to JUST pay our debt, but to show us the way. Payment of our debt was what we needed. But no where does the Gospel say it stops there.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures".

Romans 4:22-25 "That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."[speaking of Abraham] But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

See, its not just belief of a Savior who died on a cross, but one who rose again. Delivered for our trespasses....raised for our justification...

Romans 6:9-11 "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

See, we have to consider ourselves dead to sin, but also alive to God. To live for God, just as Jesus did. But we do all this in Christ. For without Him it is impossible.

I will never make show that I do not sin any longer. But I will not conceive of the idea that sin has dominion over me. Christ rose from the dead in order to secure the fact that I would be free from sin. Not just the penalty of it, but the chains that it causes.

You should never lead someone to think that they will never sin. If we could NEVER sin, we would not need a Savior making intersession. But thats just it...He lives forevermore to make intersession for us.

We sin, but as His child we CANNOT stay in sin. It is impossible because His Seed remains in us. Read 1John sometime.

I am sorry, truly am, to hear about your coworker. I hope that God is still able to use you to impact others around you.

 

[sherri2]

If salvation was just a 'free gift' through faith - ie believing that we'd just recieved it when we said the right prayer - it would be better to knock all christians on the head the moment they made that decision in case they lost it. Because the bible does make it very clear that a christian can lose their salvation.

I like martin luther, but the bible is my final word on what salvation and faith are. Not him. (and the protestant theology on salvation in general that developed from his ideas.)

 

[RichardBurger]

If salvation was just a 'free gift' through faith - ie believing that we'd just recieved it when we said the right prayer - it would be better to knock all christians on the head the moment they made that decision in case they lost it. Because the bible does make it very clear that a christian can lose their salvation.

I like martin luther, but the bible is my final word on what salvation and faith are. Not him. (and the protestant theology on salvation in general that developed from his ideas.)

If I understand you correctly you believe that in order to have salvation you have to work for it by your efforts. Hope it works out for you.

Heb 4:1-3 (NKJ)

1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.

2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.

3 For we who have believed ""do enter that rest,"" as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:9-11 (NKJ)

9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.

Note verse 10

10 For he who """"has""" entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (unbelief = disobedience, see Heb 3:11-12 and Heb. 4:2,3)

I have entered God's rest and ceased from my works (see verse 10).

 

[Neo]

Ok, here is a reality check for that story with modern faith. What if you friend told you that if you did not use the car or believe that he left the car their then something terrible would happen to you for all of eternity? That is the case today for a lot of "believers". They believe out of fear or "just in case". They have fear based faith which is not real faith at all. (I explain this in detail in my book by the way) Real faith is believing without fear no matter how many people rebuke you or try to convince you otherwise. Real faith is your own ideals and not going along with the crowd because you were told they were right and if you disagree then you are going to hell.

 

[RichardBurger]

That is a tragic story, I seriously do not like the fact that these things happen.

But the story does not end on the cross brother. That is where it only begins for us who believe. Jesus died for our sins...but He was buried...and He rose again...

To deny these facts are to deny the Gospel. I am not sure if you truly realize that the entirety of the Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection. Not just the death.

To just believe in one, and not the others is not true belief. That is the cruel joke that is misleading a lot of people into self righteousness.

His death justifies us before God. He paid our debt on the cross. But...He was buried...

Just as He was buried, we too were buried with Him...Romans 6:4 "We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life."

And as the Paul describes...we were buried so that we too might walk in newness of life. He did not die to JUST pay our debt, but to show us the way. Payment of our debt was what we needed. But no where does the Gospel say it stops there.

1Corinthians 15:1-4 "Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures".

Romans 4:22-25 "That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."[speaking of Abraham] But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification."

See, its not just belief of a Savior who died on a cross, but one who rose again. Delivered for our trespasses....raised for our justification...

Romans 6:9-11 "We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus."

See, we have to consider ourselves dead to sin, but also alive to God. To live for God, just as Jesus did. But we do all this in Christ. For without Him it is impossible.

I will never make show that I do not sin any longer. But I will not conceive of the idea that sin has dominion over me. Christ rose from the dead in order to secure the fact that I would be free from sin. Not just the penalty of it, but the chains that it causes.

You should never lead someone to think that they will never sin. If we could NEVER sin, we would not need a Savior making intersession. But thats just it...He lives forevermore to make intersession for us.

We sin, but as His child we CANNOT stay in sin. It is impossible because His Seed remains in us. Read 1John sometime.

I am sorry, truly am, to hear about your coworker. I hope that God is still able to use you to impact others around you.

Good sermon but you are preaching to the crowd. My saying "the cross" implies the work of God on the cross. His death is obvious, His resurrection is obvious. If He was not raised then the cross is meaningless. -- In any case it is the work of God on the cross that paid for our sins. That is what is important. --- Yes we sin in the flesh and will until we die. But "IN CHRIST" we are sinless in the spirit. Our works of the flesh do not make us sinless in the flesh.

You said: "And as the Paul describes...we were buried so that we too might walk in newness of life. He did not die to JUST pay our debt, but to show us the way. Payment of our debt was what we needed. But no where does the Gospel say it stops there."

-- So you are implying that we have to do something in order to complete our salvation. That is progressive sanctification and salvation by works of the flesh. I don't believe that at all.

1 Corinthians 6:11-12
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Glorify God in Body and Spirit
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

My sanctification and justification is a done deal because it was accomplished by the Spirit of God. My works will not make me MORE sanctified and MORE justified. To think my sins can cause me to be lost is being brought back under the power of the law of sin and death and I will not do that.

 

[Nathan]

Well...it was not a sermon, its the truth. I understand your heart. I really do. I seriously know what your saying. But it can misguide people.

Salvation does not belong to you. No where will you ever find that it is something given to you, for you to keep until the last day. It is waiting for you. It is Jesus.

Revelation 7:9-10 "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

-- In any case it is the work of God on the cross that paid for our sins. That is what is important. ---

I am sorry, but it is all important. You can not have one without the other. Its like saying that your brain is more important than your heart, or lungs, or the blood that flows through your veins. You have to have them all to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL.

-- So you are implying that we have to do something in order to complete our salvation. That is progressive sanctification and salvation by works of the flesh. I don't believe that at all.

No, absolutely not! We do nothing, He does everything. He completes our salvation. There is progressive sanctification, however. BUT it also is nothing of our own doing, again, He does ALL THE WORK. We obey...simple obedience.

Romans 6:16-19 "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

It is a one step in process, not a multiple process, but it does not begin and end in one fell swoop. The righteous requirement of the law was taken away with one fell swoop, but our sanctification is a process.

Romans 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get[not fruit YOU produce, but fruit you GET...from God] leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life."

We were set free from sin in one fell swoop, we became slaves of God in one fell swoop, there is now a process that takes place in us that GOD does, not us.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blamless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; He will surely do it."

If it had already happened there would not be words of future tense used.

My sanctification and justification is a done deal because it was accomplished by the Spirit of God. My works will not make me MORE sanctified and MORE justified. To think my sins can cause me to be lost is being brought back under the power of the law of sin and death and I will not do that

Very true, your justification is a done deal. You now have peace with God because of the work on the Cross. Your sanctification is not a done deal yet. It is as long as you have faith, thats all you need, your works wont do anything for you, but you have to have faith. Your sins can not cause you to be lost, but if you turned again and presented yourself to be a slave of them then you would not be lost, you would know exactly who you had left. You can never be "lost" again. But you can walk away from the grace and power that works in you.

1 Corinthians 10:1-13 "For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses...all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ...these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did...We must no put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents...they were written down for our instruction...Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall...God if faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability...He will provide the way of escape..."

There is a lot more in there than that, but I will let you study it. All that is required from us is obedience. To say that all we have to have is faith is ludicrous, obedience is REQUIRED not optional.

On the note of "possession" of salvation at the present time, and what faith does for us...

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."

We DO NOT posses salvation as of yet. But, what we do have is the Spirit of God living in us. It is HIS promise of what awaits us when we get there. He gave Him to us, we did not earn Him, nor can we do anything to keep Him. But we can decide to give or "sell" it for the worldly desires while here on earth. Its a free gift, not earned, not kept, but not ours, the Spirit is HIS GUARANTEE to us. Our faith is OUR GUARANTEE to Him. Its that simple.

Hebrews 10
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope..."
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..."
"Therefore do no throw away your confidence..."

Hebrews 12
"For the moment all discipline seems painful...but later it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousnes..."
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord..."
"See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; That no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble...no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal..."
"When he desired to inherit the blessing he was rejected for he found no chance to repent...though he sought it..."

Esau sought repentance with his own merit. Repentance is a gift from God. He sold that which God had given to him...God gave it to him...remember the story...

Birthrights can not be "lost"...they can be sold...

 

[RichardBurger]

Well...it was not a sermon, its the truth. I understand your heart. I really do. I seriously know what your saying. But it can misguide people.

Salvation does not belong to you. No where will you ever find that it is something given to you, for you to keep until the last day. It is waiting for you. It is Jesus.

Revelation 7:9-10 "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"

-- In any case it is the work of God on the cross that paid for our sins. That is what is important. ---

I am sorry, but it is all important. You can not have one without the other. Its like saying that your brain is more important than your heart, or lungs, or the blood that flows through your veins. You have to have them all to be FULLY FUNCTIONAL.

-- So you are implying that we have to do something in order to complete our salvation. That is progressive sanctification and salvation by works of the flesh. I don't believe that at all.

No, absolutely not! We do nothing, He does everything. He completes our salvation. There is progressive sanctification, however. BUT it also is nothing of our own doing, again, He does ALL THE WORK. We obey...simple obedience.

Romans 6:16-19 "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

It is a one step in process, not a multiple process, but it does not begin and end in one fell swoop. The righteous requirement of the law was taken away with one fell swoop, but our sanctification is a process.

Romans 6:22 "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get[not fruit YOU produce, but fruit you GET...from God] leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life."

We were set free from sin in one fell swoop, we became slaves of God in one fell swoop, there is now a process that takes place in us that GOD does, not us.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blamless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; He will surely do it."

If it had already happened there would not be words of future tense used.

My sanctification and justification is a done deal because it was accomplished by the Spirit of God. My works will not make me MORE sanctified and MORE justified. To think my sins can cause me to be lost is being brought back under the power of the law of sin and death and I will not do that

Very true, your justification is a done deal. You now have peace with God because of the work on the Cross. Your sanctification is not a done deal yet. It is as long as you have faith, thats all you need, your works wont do anything for you, but you have to have faith. Your sins can not cause you to be lost, but if you turned again and presented yourself to be a slave of them then you would not be lost, you would know exactly who you had left. You can never be "lost" again. But you can walk away from the grace and power that works in you.

1 Corinthians 10:1-13 "For I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses...all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ...these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did...We must no put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents...they were written down for our instruction...Therefore let anyone who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall...God if faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability...He will provide the way of escape..."

There is a lot more in there than that, but I will let you study it. All that is required from us is obedience. To say that all we have to have is faith is ludicrous, obedience is REQUIRED not optional.

On the note of "possession" of salvation at the present time, and what faith does for us...

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of His glory."

We DO NOT posses salvation as of yet. But, what we do have is the Spirit of God living in us. It is HIS promise of what awaits us when we get there. He gave Him to us, we did not earn Him, nor can we do anything to keep Him. But we can decide to give or "sell" it for the worldly desires while here on earth. Its a free gift, not earned, not kept, but not ours, the Spirit is HIS GUARANTEE to us. Our faith is OUR GUARANTEE to Him. Its that simple.

Hebrews 10
"Let us hold fast the confession of our hope..."
"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins..."
"Therefore do no throw away your confidence..."

Hebrews 12
"For the moment all discipline seems painful...but later it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousnes..."
"Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord..."
"See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; That no root of bitterness springs up and causes trouble...no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal..."
"When he desired to inherit the blessing he was rejected for he found no chance to repent...though he sought it..."

Esau sought repentance with his own merit. Repentance is a gift from God. He sold that which God had given to him...God gave it to him...remember the story...

Birthrights can not be "lost"...they can be sold...

So I am to be convienced that I am wrong because you believed as I do and changed that belief to yours. Your claim of superior knowledge is noted.

If you claim to have faith, trust, in God's work on the cross to save you, why is it that you don't have that same faith, trust, in the power of God to keep you a child of God? Seems to me that somehow your faith, trust, is lacking commitment. Perhaps you are one of the seeds that fell on rocks and had no roots.

Romans 6:15-23
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

The key to undersatnding the above is the statements "having been set free." --- If we have been set free and yet we know that we still sin in the flesh, then how are we to see the above? The key is that we have been set free.

To believe that we, by our own efforts to not sin in the flesh, must not sin is to have confidence in the power (will) of the flesh to not sin. That does not agree with Paul who wrote; Philippians 3:2-3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

 

[RichardBurger]

Ok, here is a reality check for that story with modern faith. What if you friend told you that if you did not use the car or believe that he left the car their then something terrible would happen to you for all of eternity? That is the case today for a lot of "believers". They believe out of fear or "just in case". They have fear based faith which is not real faith at all. (I explain this in detail in my book by the way) Real faith is believing without fear no matter how many people rebuke you or try to convince you otherwise. Real faith is your own ideals and not going along with the crowd because you were told they were right and if you disagree then you are going to hell.

If you are judging the faith of others and those others are really children of God you are not their judge, Jesus is, and you are not Jesus. The last part I can agree with. It seems that I am the only one that is giving """ALL"" the Glory for salvation to the work of Jesus on the cross and I don't have many friends on this forum when I do that. Most insist that somehow we are saved by the power of God but not kept saved by the power of God. My story of faith is the correct model.

John 10:3-5
3 To him (Jesus) the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
NKJV

 

[Nathan]

So I am to be convienced that I am wrong because you believed as I do and changed that belief to yours. Your claim of superior knowledge is noted.

I am sorry if you are misunderstanding me. Let me see if I can make my heart clearer. I believed, at one time, what you believed. I also believed, at one time, that "fruit" was something that you produced.

Both times, I had a feeling of uneasiness. Did that mean I did not believe what I did believe? No...I had faith...but it was not a faith based upon the whole truth of what God has said.

The scribes and pharisees had "faith". They had faith in and of themselves, but most importantly they had faith that they were children of the promise made to Abraham. Jesus never denied the fact that they did not have "faith" in those things. What He did deny is the fact that the faith they did have was not TRUE FAITH.

True FAITH, as defined by Scripture, is a belief in EVERYTHING God says. Not just somethings. You cannot pick and choose what you are going to "believe". You cannot say, "I believe that God says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life".

And then turn right around saying, "I do not believe that God says, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him"

They are both from the same chapter in the Bible, its only because we choose to stop reading when we feel good about what we want to believe, that we do not see the entirety of the Gospel.

I do not claim superior knowledge. I claim to study the Bible as a whole, and I make the stand that I choose to not pick and choose which verses I am going to say apply to me, and then with the same breath say the others do not, when they actually do. The Bible is very clear when it lays out who it is speaking to. If it speaks to believers, it says so, if is specifically speaking to nonbelievers it says so. It is not a superior knowledge that gives me information, I am quite stupid in fact, all my life I have been ridiculed as a kid "without common sense". Praise God from whom ALL blessings flow.

If you claim to have faith, trust, in God's work on the cross to save you, why is it that you don't have that same faith, trust, in the power of God to keep you a child of God? Seems to me that somehow your faith, trust, is lacking commitment. Perhaps you are one of the seeds that fell on rocks and had no roots.

I do have that faith. I do not understand why you think that I do not trust God to do the work in me. I am simply saying that as a believer ALL I have to do is obey. Thats it. Nothing more. Just obedience. Simple.

Commitment is not commitment to yourself. It is commitment to Him. It is commitment that says, "even though HE may slay me, still I will trust Him"

Romans 6:16-19 "Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey.....either of sin, which leads to death.....or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."

I am not sure if you got this the first time around. I am also not sure why this is so hard to understand. And I am also not sure why this takes away ANY power from God, or has anything to do with "good works of men". Paul simply and pointedly says that before we were born again we were slaves to sin. Now that we "committed" our "faith, trust, and hope" in Him we are slaves of righteousness. ALL, again, ALL we have to do is obey. Thats it. Nothing more.

The key to undersatnding the above is the statements "having been set free." --- If we have been set free and yet we know that we still sin in the flesh, then how are we to see the above? The key is that we have been set free.

We have been set free. Free from the slavery of sin...not free to sin...

We do still sin in the flesh...but thats the whole point of sanctification..."so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification".

We are free...What does freedom mean to you? Just free from performance? I agree!! We no longer have to "try" to do good things. When we obey, from our heart, those good things...called fruit...come. Not by our works, but by Him working in us.

To believe that we, by our own efforts to not sin in the flesh, must not sin is to have confidence in the power (will) of the flesh to not sin. That does not agree with Paul who wrote; Philippians 3:2-3
2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation!
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
NKJV

No, no, you still misunderstand what I am saying, what the Bible teaches.

It is not by our own efforts. It is by our obedience to God...obedience produces fruit...works do not produce fruit. Our souls...who we truly are...have BEEN sanctified. Our minds/flesh are BEING sanctified by OBEDIENCE.

It is by odedience alone because ONLY GOD CAN DO IT.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 "Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blamless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; He will surely do it."

It is an ongoing process that He does. And it includes all parts of us. You cannot say that because our flesh still sins, that God does not want to sanctify that part of us. Its wrong. He wants to sanctify that part of us. He will if we obey Him.

If you can show me one part, in context, that teaches us we DO NOT HAVE to obey Him now...I would be in for a surprise. Trust me. I have looked for it. I looked for it when I lived in the flesh, and still do sometimes when I fall back into old habits of the flesh. The flesh CANNOT submit [obey] God. It is IMPOSSIBLE. That is why we had to have been born from above.

When we live in the Spirit, letting GOD TRANSFORM OUR MINDS by obedience, then we will be GIVEN power FROM GOD to take control of the FLESH.

Romans 8:7-13 "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you...If the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live."

It takes NOTHING away from God to obey Him. It DOES NOT "lessen" His grace and forgiveness to obey Him.

I think that sometimes, because this life is by faith, we tend to make separations between the "spiritual" and the "physical".

There is indeed a separation. But that is precisely why God sent His Son in human flesh...have you ever wondered why Christ came in human form? And not as His original form?

Romans 8:3-4 "For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

See that little conjunction "and", it signifies the fact that there are not one...but two different reasons why He came in the flesh. One is to provide payment of our sins once and for all. Done deal. We will never be able to do anything to repay or earn that forgiveness.

Two is to condemn sin IN THE FLESH in order that the righteous requirements of the law "might" be fulfilled in us...might...that means we have a choice to obey or disobey...we choose to be slaves of sin...or slaves of righteousness...

Who's slave are you? Are you greater than a slave? Do you not have to obey your master?

 

[Nathan]

If you are judging the faith of others and those others are really children of God you are not their judge, Jesus is, and you are not Jesus. The last part I can agree with. It seems that I am the only one that is giving """ALL"" the Glory for salvation to the work of Jesus on the cross and I don't have many friends on this forum when I do that. Most insist that somehow we are saved by the power of God but not kept saved by the power of God. My story of faith is the correct model.

John 10:3-5
3 To him (Jesus) the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers."
NKJV

Sometimes this can happen when we are looking "around" us instead of looking "above" us...

You cannot base your entirety of faith on one or two different passages. If your friend had indeed told you to drive the car, not just let it sit there, but you choose to not "believe" that part of his gift...does that mean you still have faith?

 

[RichardBurger]

Sometimes this can happen when we are looking "around" us instead of looking "above" us...

You cannot base your entirety of faith on one or two different passages. If your friend had indeed told you to drive the car, not just let it sit there, but you choose to not "believe" that part of his gift...does that mean you still have faith?

That is the heart of it, isn't it? Works required for God's gift.

My friend never told me I HAVE to drive it. If he did then it would be a CONDITION (a law) for me to recieve his FREE give. I would have to do something to pay for his gift. Your idea is not of faith. It is based on what you do and that is a slippery slope because there is no way that YOU can do anything to merit God's grace.

Your idea that a person's faith cannot be based on one or two passages is amazing. It leaves you with having to go through all the scriptures and blend them together and when you do that you will have the scriptures meaning what you won't them to mean, not what God said. Personally, I beleve what John wrote in John 3:16-18 without adding anything to it. I also believe the follwing without adding anything to it.

John 6:53-58
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
NKJV

This is not manmade physical bread. It is the spiritual bread that came down from heaven.

 

[Nathan]

That is the heart of it, isn't it? Works required for God's gift.

My friend never told me I HAVE to drive it. If he did then it would be a CONDITION (a law) for me to recieve his FREE give. I would have to do something to pay for his gift. Your idea is not of faith. It is based on what you do and that is a slippery slope because there is no way that YOU can do anything to merit God's grace.

Your idea that a person's faith cannot be based on one or two passages is amazing. It leaves you with having to go through all the scriptures and blend them together and when you do that you will have the scriptures meaning what you won't them to mean, not what God said. Personally, I beleve what John wrote in John 3:16-18 without adding anything to it. I also believe the follwing without adding anything to it.

John 6:53-58
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven — not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."
NKJV

This is not manmade physical bread. It is the spiritual bread that came down from heaven.

Well...I am not going to try and convince you anymore. But let me leave you with this...

Faith that is based on "partiality" cannot be faith. Faith is not something you muster up. It is a gift from God. But, if you want to take that passage out of context you have that choice if you want...

You must take the entirety of what God has said to build upon faith. Otherwise...what does it matter if people do what they want...I mean...I can be an openly lier, cheat, murderer, adulterer, hater of God, and still find myself in heaven one day because God said, "He is not willing that any should perish..."

See...nothing matters now...party time!!!

Now that would be ignorant...huh...

You are very correct in your thinking...but your study is a little off. We loose a lot of true meaning when we translate the Letters and Scripture of the Bible into English...did you know that the current Bible we have was not written in English??

Its a good thing too...because a lot of arguments and useless debates can be forgone if a basic understanding of the original language is had. God had a purpose for the New Testament being written in Greek.

The English language has reached over 1,000,000 words. Far, Far below the Greek language. And that is just as of 2009.

What we loose is the tense, voice, and mood of the original words used in translation. Translators translated the meaning, but unless you study, you do not know the full definition that is there.

Does it matter? Well...the word Jesus used, "eat"...it is an ongoing process. It is not a one time thing.

Its like me saying I want to eat. Some might clasify that as me saying, "I want to eat right now" where I could mean it as, "I want to eat, and keep eating, and never stop eating".

There is no way to tell unless I specifically say so, its only from assumption one way or the other.

The original language does not leave that to chance, or interpretation, and especially when you take the whole of the writings into consideration. They universally point to one statement, and one statement alone....

You must continue in the faith in order to receive Salvation when He comes again.

It is only when we decide to take things out of context that we misunderstand what our call is. Ok...so that means you just keep on believing...right?

RIGHT!!!...and the proof of that is the fruit you bear...cant leave that out.

The idea that there is no choice, no obedience, to desire, no passion...no love...that we exhibit to our Savior...is based on lies...

Believe what you want...I cannot change your mind...

Studying Greek is not hard at all...it is very simple especially with the technology and resources available today. I would recommend a free help site called "blueletterbible.org". It has a ton of resources for you and is free.

 

[RichardBurger]

Well...I am not going to try and convince you anymore. But let me leave you with this...

Faith that is based on "partiality" cannot be faith. Faith is not something you muster up. It is a gift from God. But, if you want to take that passage out of context you have that choice if you want...

You must take the entirety of what God has said to build upon faith. Otherwise...what does it matter if people do what they want...I mean...I can be an openly lier, cheat, murderer, adulterer, hater of God, and still find myself in heaven one day because God said, "He is not willing that any should perish..."

See...nothing matters now...party time!!!

Now that would be ignorant...huh...

You are very correct in your thinking...but your study is a little off. We loose a lot of true meaning when we translate the Letters and Scripture of the Bible into English...did you know that the current Bible we have was not written in English??

Its a good thing too...because a lot of arguments and useless debates can be forgone if a basic understanding of the original language is had. God had a purpose for the New Testament being written in Greek.

The English language has reached over 1,000,000 words. Far, Far below the Greek language. And that is just as of 2009.

What we loose is the tense, voice, and mood of the original words used in translation. Translators translated the meaning, but unless you study, you do not know the full definition that is there.

Does it matter? Well...the word Jesus used, "eat"...it is an ongoing process. It is not a one time thing.

Its like me saying I want to eat. Some might clasify that as me saying, "I want to eat right now" where I could mean it as, "I want to eat, and keep eating, and never stop eating".

There is no way to tell unless I specifically say so, its only from assumption one way or the other.

The original language does not leave that to chance, or interpretation, and especially when you take the whole of the writings into consideration. They universally point to one statement, and one statement alone....

You must continue in the faith in order to receive Salvation when He comes again.

It is only when we decide to take things out of context that we misunderstand what our call is. Ok...so that means you just keep on believing...right?

RIGHT!!!...and the proof of that is the fruit you bear...cant leave that out.

The idea that there is no choice, no obedience, to desire, no passion...no love...that we exhibit to our Savior...is based on lies...

Believe what you want...I cannot change your mind...

Studying Greek is not hard at all...it is very simple especially with the technology and resources available today. I would recommend a free help site called "blueletterbible.org". It has a ton of resources for you and is free.

Jesus knows those that have faith in Him and HE keeps them by His power. Man's assumption that they have to keep themselves saved by their own power will led them to Hell.

When people are looking at others and judging them as to their faith They are placing themsleves in God' s place. Instead of looking for works (fruits) in others people should look at their own and certainly should not boast about them. I don't.

It is a truth that Jesus came to save sinners but man has made it to be those that CHANGE and all the while they know they have not really changed.

 

[Nathan]

Jesus knows those that have faith in Him and HE keeps them by His power. Man's assumption that they have to keep themselves saved by their own power will led them to Hell.

When you are looking at others and judging them as to their faith you are placing yourself in God' s place. Instead of looking for works (fruits) in others look at your own and when you do don't boast about them. I don't.

It is a truth that Jesus came to save sinners but man has made it to be those that CHANGE and all the while they know they have not really changed.

Its a weakness of mine to keep on rambling even when I said I would stop.....lol.

I couldn't let this go without agreeing with you though...you are correct, very correct.

Jesus does know those whom the Father has given the faith to believe in Him, and He does keep them...with absolutely no help from man.

It is true when you look at others--in order to judge them--you are putting yourself in God's place.

And you are very correct on the point of not looking--for--works (fruit) in others.

You don't what? Look for fruit...or...judge others motives?

Have you ever walked by a fruit tree? How about a grape vine? Ever seen a tomato plant late summer?

I am sure you have seen one of these in your life time. How did you distinguish the type of plant it was? Did you not "look" at the fruit on the plant and say, "hey...thats an apple tree".

Ohhh....you don't "judge" the plant because that tree with apples all over it could really be an orange tree...right...I see now.

Your misinterpretation, misrepresentation, of what I am saying may sway some...your not fooling me. I never said I "judged" people by their fruits...or works.

I have simply made the point time after time that a born again believer will produce fruit.

So...you don't what?

...Judge others...like you do me or others?

...Boast in your fruit...your "I don't do this...I don't do that"...like you...just did?

Let it be known that there is no assumption to be made. It is written down in black and white. He keeps us sinless...we keep the faith.

Just as He is constantly before the throne, making intersession. We are to be constantly using the faith, we have been given, to walk in this life.

"Only let your manner of life be worthy of the Gospel of Christ...with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God" Philippians 1:27-28