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The Hindu Trinity: The Original Trinity

Do you believe that Trinity was taught by Jesus?


  • Total voters
    6
B

Brother

Guest
In the whole Bible we do NOT find a clear-cut statement that Jesus says he is God. We also do NOT find the word "Trinity." All what we find that Jesus was worshipping his God and was asking people to worship God alone. Historians states that Jesus was not worshipped during his life time nor did he call people to worship him. Historians also declare that the idea of Trinity was only invented three hundred years after Jesus.

For those who wish to argue the verse of John 10:30 where Jesus says: "I and the Father are one." This verse does not imply Jesus divinity because in the same sense Jesus referred to his disciples (that Jesus and his disciples and God are one); Jesus said: in John 17:21-23 : "that they [i.e. the disciples] may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one; I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one . . ."
It is clear here that Jesus did not mean the oneness of divinity but the oneness of propose as one group not as one god. Jesus meant by saying this that who follows the disciples does follow him and who follows him does follow God. Thus, Jesus said, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14:6) Jesus meant here that he was an example for the people that they should follow his teachings to live rightly. So Jesus was the way to God, which definitely means that God was the aim, and to find that aim is through following Jesus as Moses was the example and the way for his people. So Jesus and Moses were not God but they were the way to God. Jesus never said that he was God. Instead, Jesus declared that God is greater than he; Jesus said, "the Father is greater than I." (John 14:28)

Some may argue that Jesus was called SON OF GOD which means that he was God in a Trinity. Actually many were called SONS OF GOD prior to Jesus like in the book of Job (in the Old Testament) the angels were called SONS OF GOD (Job 2:1). Solomon was called SON OF GOD and so was David and others. This term "SON OF GOD" was so common in the language of Jesus (the Aramaic) which signifies godly person who is closed to God but this term (SON OF GOD) never meant that this person is God himself! However, God, in the language of Jesus, was the father of all people and not of Jesus alone; Jesus said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." (John 20:17) So Jesus clearly stated that God is his Father and the Father of his disciples. Jesus also stated that he had his God, so Jesus himself was not God himself. Otherwise God has a God!

God is not three, He is only ONE:
“And one of the scribes [the Jews] came, … asked him, which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord.†(The Holy Bible, Mark 12:28-29) (If God is three or three in one or one in three then Jesus would clarify it.)
“Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.†(The Holy Bible, Matthew 4:10)
“And it came to pass in those days, that he [Jesus] went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.†(The Holy Bible, Luke 6:12)


TESTIMONIES OF THE HISTORIANS, BIBLICAL SCHOLARS AND ENCYCLOPEDIAS THAT THE DESCIPLES OF JESUS DID NOT WORSHIP HIM:

"They [the disciples] did not regard his [e.g. Jesus] death as a divine, tragic, or saving event. And they did not imagine that he had been raised from the dead to rule over a transformed world. Instead, they thought of him as a teacher whose teachings made it possible to live with verve in troubled times. Thus they did not gather to worship in his name, honor him as a god, or cultivate his memory through hymns, prayers, and rituals."
- The biblical Scholar Burton L. Mack, "The Lost Gospel"

"The earliest followers of Jesus were not even called ‘Christians’ . . . They were called ‘Nazarenes’. They believed that Jesus was the ‘Christ’ in the Jewish sense of that term . . . They did not believe that Jesus was a divine being . . ." - Hyam Maccoby, a Domus Exhibitioner in Classics at Balliol College, Oxford, "Revolution in Judea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance."

"Unitarianism as a theological movement began much earlier in History; indeed it antedated Trinitarianism by many decades. Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."
- Encyclopedia Americana, (1959) Vol. 27, p. 294

TESTIMONIES OF THE HISTORIANS, BIBLICAL SCHOLARS AND ENCYCLOPEDIAS THAT JESUS DID NOT TEACH THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY:
“To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.†- Yale University Professor E. Washburn Hopkins, "Origin and Evolution of Religion."

"What is most embarrassing for the church is the difficulty of proving any of these statements of dogma from the new Testament documents. You simply cannot find the doctrine of the Trinity set out anywhere in the Bible." – Tom Harpur (a Christian Scholar), "For Christ's Sake."

"The Old Testament is a strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there or even in any way shadowed forth, is an assumption that has long held sway in theology, but is utterly without foundation." - Anthony Buzzard, "Who is Jesus?"

“. . . scholars generally agree that there is no doctrine of the trinity as such in either the Old Testament or the New Testament.†- The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism (1995)


TESTIMONIES OF THE HISTORIANS, BIBLICAL SCHOLARS AND ENCYCLOPEDIAS THAT THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY WAS INVENTED MORE THAN THREE HUNDRED YEARS AFTER JESUS:

“It [the Trinity] did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.†- The Illustrated Bible Dictionary

"Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon [i.e the Trinity], and nowhere in the New Testament does the word 'Trinity' appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord." - Arthur Weigall (a Christian Historian), "The Paganism in Our Christianity."

"The trinity of God is defined by the church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief." - Dictionary of the Bible by John L. McKenzie, S.J. p. 899

"There is the recognition on the part of exegetes and Biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics, that one should not speak of Trinitarianism in the New Testament without serious qualification. There is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians that when one does speak of an unqualified Trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to, say, the last quadrant of the 4th century. It was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma 'One God in three Persons' became thoroughly assimilated into Christian life and thought ... it was the product of 3 centuries of doctrinal development." - The New Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIV, p. 295

Actually the idea of Trinity was taken from Hinduism:
“[In Hinduism,] All the gods and goddesses, each of which has numerous aspects, are regarded as different forms of the one Supreme Being.†- Columbia Encyclopedia

"In the so-called Hindu Trinity (the Trimurti or ‘three-form’ of God, consisting Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) Brahma is associated with creation, Vishnu with sustaining, and Shiva destruction, just as in Christianity, the Father came to be associated with creation, the Son with redemption, and the Holy Spirit with sanctification." - The encyclopedia of Man, Myth & Magic

“All that converting the Hindoos to Christianity does for them," says Robert Cheyne, "is to change the object of their worship from Krishna to Christ." Of Krishna's gospel, the "Bhagavad-Gita," Appletons Cyclopedia says, "Its correspondence with the New Testament is indeed striking." The parallels between Krishna and Christ to be found in the Hindoo scriptures and the Christian Gospels are too numerous and too exact to be accidental. The legends of the one were borrowed from the other. It is admitted by Christian scholars that Krishna lived many centuries before Christ. To admit the priority of the Krishna legends is to deny, to this extent, the originality of the Gospels. To break the force of the logical conclusion to be drawn from this some argue that while Krishna himself antedated Christ, the legends concerning him are of later origin and borrowed from the Evangelists. Regarding this contention Judge Waite, in his History of the Christian Religion, says: "Here then, we have the older religion and the older god. This, in the absence of any evidence on the other side, ought to settle the question. To assume without evidence that the older religion has been interpolated from the later, and that the legends of the older hero have been made to conform to the history of a later character, is worse than illogical -- it is absurd." - John E. Remsberg, "The Christ"
 
Q: i have been confronted by a friend who doesn't believe in the trinity. can you give me some passages to prove the existense of it?

A: First start with passages that emphasize that there is but one true God. Passages that make this point would include Deuteronomy 6:4 and Isaiah 45:22 (and many, many others!). It's important that people understand that when we teach the Trinity we are not speaking about three separate Gods.

The place to go after that is to show them a basic passage such as Matthew 28:19 which mentions the three distinct persons within the one God. Notice in particular the part of that passage that shows the unity (the first point above) even in the midst of the distinction of the persons (this second point). Jesus speaks of baptizing in "the name" (NOT "the names"!)of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. In this subtle and yet significant way, that passage emphasizes both the unity of the one "Godhead" and at the same time the very real plurality of the persons. (Of course, how God can be truly one and yet truly three will forever go beyond our ability to comprehend! I wonder how much it may be troubling your friend that he/she is trying to figure out that which forever will go beyond our understanding!)

Perhaps it would also be good to be prepared with a passage such as Matthew 3:13-17 (the baptism of Jesus) which shows us that the three persons are clearly distinct persons as we see them all active at the same time at Jesus' baptism. Sometimes false teachers in the church have distorted the doctrine of the Trinity by teaching that these three names (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) are nothing but different "modes of activity" as one person plays three different parts at different times. That's impossible as Matthew 3 (and other passages) shows.

Finally, consider the literally hundreds of passages that show the Son and the Holy Spirit to be fully God in every way (not 1/3 of God, but wholly God every bit as much as the God the Father). Among such passages we would include: Colossians 2:9 (notice "all [not one third] the fullness of the deity" lives in Christ!), Acts 5:3-4 (notice that lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God!), Revelation 22:12-16 (here Jesus uses for himself clear terms of eternal and infinite deity!).

How else can we understand these passages (and so many, many others like them!)without ending up teaching multiple "Gods" unless we maintain the unity in diversity and diversity in unity that is the doctrine of the Trinity! Certainly, we will forever struggle to come up with adequate ways of expressing the awesome truth of what Scripture clearly paints before us about our awesome Triune God. Even though it is true that the word "Trinity" itself is not used per se in the Scriptures, the teaching is clearly able to be shown in many places in the Scriptures!
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Brother,
You can't separate the Word of God from the Father. God's Word is the Father. What God intends, what He commands, what He creates, what He wills is manifest through His Word. And that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
God's Word is the very essence of the Father. After all, it's HIS Word. God's Word created the universe, through His Word, By His Word and for His Word. His Word became flesh to become like us, to experience the temptations of this world.
Hebrews teaches us that Christ, God's Word, becomes the ultimate High priest for us, without beginning or end. And such a high priest suits us and judges us.
All men will bow to His Word, to Christ. All things consist through His Word, Christ.
God's Word in the flesh can only speak what is willed by the Father Himself. The Word of God comes from the Father, sent by the Father.. God's Word in the flesh cannot speak anything else but the Father's intention, His will. And it is His will that His Word be glorified to sit at the right hand of the Father Himself. His Word was all, His Word is all, His Word will be all from everlasting to everlasting.

Why is this so difficult? Christ claimed to be the resurrection, an event, something to take place. (the Father's intent). Christ claimed to be the way, (The will of God), the Truth (for God cannot lie) and the life (God's grace)
How can God's Word become flesh? The same way the Father's will, The Father's truth and the Father's grace to give life became flesh. By His will through His Word.
 
Its funny how people can argue about the Trinity, yet condemn a man like Arnold Murray in other posts about it. People haven't resolved this issued and won't till Christ/God returns.

__Heres a few things to think about. God's the God of the Law. Law in its most strict sense forbids him from being flesh and God at the same time. ( I know its contradictory ). Christ being spirit and man was able to fulfill the Law! He knew it was impossible for man to. The Rich man told Christ he was good and wise, but he rebuked him by saying only God is good and wise. Yet there's not a one of us who couldn't make this same statement and feel it's true. Yet Christ rebuked him, and said if you consider me wise you might as well call me God. But theres none good or wise but God.
__If Christ is the Word of the 1st verses of the Gospel of John then he's the closest thing to God we'll ever experience. The word Deacon comes from the root meaning of the word 'DECAY'. The only way we can experience God is in a limited state. We don't have the facility's to do it in the sinful flesh. God is beyond space (Matter) and Time (Distance). He's ZERO Kelvin (the Immovable Object) and faster than the Speed of Light (Tachion's) The Irrestible Force.
__The Trinity is the closiest thing we'll ever get to a Complete Godhead! The Druids, The one's who spoke to Paul in the 29th Chapter of Acts. Told him of there religion, Paul recognized immediately the connection betwween them and the practices of Judaism. The ancient Celtic Church was pure and untouched by Rome in it infancy. They believed that there was 1 God the Father and a God the Son and a God the Spirit. But over them, a greater God the God of One. Anyway. the point I'm trying to make is that you can't make your idea of God fit in a box. And you can't prove or disprove your ideas or others completely.
__If you really that interested in these notions of God maybe you should study the names of God, like “The Lord is My Banner†thats here at this link http://havennyc.com/resources/pdf/names_banner.pdf or how about the 1-42 Names of God in Hebrew. All the same God with different attributes! Yet not the same. Yet all God! Or when in the scriptures when God is spoken of "The Kingdom of God" or ""The Kingdom of Heaven", which are two totally different references to parts of <God's> possesions and plan!

Anyways, thats all I gotta say, but u'll never nail this argument to the tree. Its like searching for a Unified Field Theory. Even if you could think it up, i'd be impossible to do without blowning up the whole universe trying to prove it!
 
ÃÂoppleganger said:
Its funny how people can argue about the Trinity, yet condemn a man like Arnold Murray in other posts about it. People haven't resolved this issued and won't till Christ/God returns.

....

Anyways, thats all I gotta say, but u'll never nail this argument to the tree. Its like searching for a Unified Field Theory. Even if you could think it up, i'd be impossible to do without blowning up the whole universe trying to prove it!

Well put. Human minds trying to fully understand the scope of God. I believe in the Trinity, but not because I understand it.

Maybe that is why our Creeds most often state, "I believe" not "I understand"
 
Please note the following.

1 Corinthians 12

12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.
13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one bodyâ€â€whether Jews or Greeks, slave or freeâ€â€and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.
14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.
17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?
18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.
19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?
20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"
22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,
24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,
25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.
26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.
28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?
30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.
And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Ephesians 5

23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body
, of which he is the Savior.

John 17

20 My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
23 I in them and you in me.
May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.


The scriptures above are important, because they point to the nature of the Godhead. Now if Jesus (who is Christ) is the head of the Church, and the Church is the body of Christ, this means that Jesus, along with the entire Church, make up Christ. In other words, Christ is not a single entity, rather Christ is the multitude of beings composed from the Church – for which Jesus forms the head.

Also, if Christ is in a man, and that man becomes Christ by virtue of being a member of Christ, then if any man has a part of the Godhead in him, that man is a member of that part of the Godhead as well. Therefore if the Father is in a man, then that man is the Father, by virtue of the fact of the Father’s presence is in him. That is why Jesus said repeatedly that he and the Father are one: because members of the Father were in him, and those members of the Father and Jesus were one.

Therefore all men who have faith, are like Jesus. Each one is Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the Father. The Godhead therefore is not made up of 1 or 3 beings: the Godhead is made up of countless beings who make up the Father, the Holy Spirit, and the Son; and form a grand union and are hence all one.
 
Brother said:
In the whole Bible we do NOT find a clear-cut statement that Jesus says he is God.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

How could He be an event? How could He say this BEFORE He was crucified? This He did say without question. How can that be so?
The spiritual does not follow the laws of the physical. Trying to equate things spiritual with what we know and experience every day is impossible.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...

What Word? Who's Word?
What became flesh?
 
Fnerb said:
Well put. Human minds trying to fully understand the scope of God. I believe in the Trinity, but not because I understand it.

Maybe that is why our Creeds most often state, "I believe" not "I understand"

Why is it then that those who do understand and who therefore cannot 'believe', are slated by those who 'believe' but don't know why? :-?
 
I 'think' that the answer lies somewhere in the 'place' one finds oneself 'in the world'. For the world LOVES those that LOVE the world. They ARE able to 'find a place' within it once they surrender themselves TO IT.

I accuse or judge NO ONE. I am simply stating that it seems apparent to me that there are ONLY two ways a person can travel; forward or backwards. And the 'way of the world' is certainly not to BE UNDERSTOOD except by those that live 'in it'.

A MAJOR part of my 'questioning' this 'trinity' to start with was the utter LACK of anyone that accepts it to understand it. Their answer is basically, 'That's JUST the way it IS'. Even if it doesn't make sense they insist that it is the ONLY way.

I am amazed that this could be so. It would be like exposing a 'cave man' to a 'light switch'. He flips it and a light comes on. He flips it again, the light goes off. For lack of 'understanding' he begins to believe that the power lies 'in the switch itself'. Doesn't understand it but KNOWS that 'if he flips the switch' the light goes on or off. It's a 'magical switch' and THIS HE KNOWS, but other than this ONE FACT, his understanding is void.

MEC
 
I was waiting some one to give us serious refute to what i have stated above. Let me repeat it again with emphasis:
"In the whole Bible we do NOT find a CLEAR-CUT statement that JESUS SAYS he is God. We also do NOT find the word "TRINITY." All what we find that Jesus was worshipping his God and was asking people to worship God alone. Historians states that Jesus was not worshipped during his life time nor did he call people to worship him. Historians also declare that the idea of Trinity was only invented three hundred years after Jesus."

The idea of Trinity as much as it is 4th century man-made, it is a confused theology. We read here the first two replies and find that the confusion started already.In order to answer a serious question which to expose the reality of confusion (Are the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit three distinct persons or are same one person?), Fnerb says they are "three distinct persons within the one God." That means the Father, the Son (or Word) and the Holy Spirit are not same persons which means that the Father is not the Son (Word) nor the Holy Spirit. PotLuck disagree. He said, "You can't separate the Word of God from the Father. God's Word is the Father."
And here I do not have any comment!! God is not Lord of confusion. If He told us that He is ONE then he is ONE. Fnerb said that God is "truly one and yet truly three"
God never said that He is three or that He is three in one or one in three!! Nor did Jesus say so. When they asked Jesus about the first of all commandments, Jesus replied that God is ONE (and he never said three or one in three or trinity). Regarding to Matthew 28 : 29, it does not refer to a three persons in one divinity. Instead, it does not tell any thing. It is more similar to some one telling you that his school's certificate has signature of the school's manager as well as a teacher of mathematics and a teacher of English Literature. Then we can say that the certificate was certified in the name of the manager, the math's teacher and the literature's teacher. Ofcourse the three are NOT one manager.
Another comment made by Potluck that Jesus said, "I am the resurrection, and the life."
Again this is not a CLEAR-CUT statment. Jesus was a teacher sent by God. Jesus clearly stated, "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7 : 16)
So, Jesus clearly telling us that he is not God, if he is God then his doctrine would be his own. But it actually it is of the one who sent him. Jesus also said, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." (John 8 : 28)
These two statements actually say to us that Jesus was a Prophet of God, because Moses who was also a Prophet of God said the same thing!! " And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind." (Numbers 16 : 28)
Thus Jesus was the way to lead us to God, as he said, "I am the way." (Ofcourse God is not the way, He is the porpuse and the destination of the way). Therefore, who follows Jesus finds life, truth and resurrection as Jesus is. So, when Jesus said that he is the resurrection, that does not mean he is God! I wish to find a CLEAR-CUT statement (and not just hints or confused way of thinking) for Jesus to declare that he is God (and still I wait the answer).
What about John 1:1? It is not the words of Jesus. It is the words of the author of John's Gospel. John's Gospel was not written by John the disciple. The proof is John 13 : 23 : " Now there was leaning on Jesus bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved."
The disciple whom Jesus loved is John the disciple and ofcourse, he is not the one who wrote this verse nor the book itself. The author of the book is not known. And this unknown author stole his first verse from a Hellinistic Jewish philosopher called Philon of Alexenria. Many biblical scholars thinks that the author is from Alexandria from a Gnostic heretical school.
Whatever, we need to hear Jesus testimony about himself. Jesus never said that he is God at all. Instead, Jesus recognized that the Father is his God (which means that they are not same one God):
"I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God." (John 20 : 17) And Jesus also was worshipping his God: "And it came to pass in those days, that he [i.e. Jesus] went out into a mountain to pray, and continued all night, in prayer to God."
I think my point is so clear and simple, "In the whole Bible we do NOT find a CLEAR-CUT statement that JESUS SAYS he is God."
 
Amen Brother. And the answer that you seek 'will NOT be given' for it does NOT exist. There will be MUCH refuting, but little that stands up to the 'facts'.

This 'trinity' was devised by a 'people' that ALREADY HAD a god of 'triune' nature PREVIOUS to their introduction to Christianity. They simply incorporated Christ into their previous traditions and ritual and eventually even 'created' this 'trinity' in reflection of what they were 'comfortable' with.

If one studies the introduction of 'trinity' into Christianity one quickly finds that it was NOT AN EASY thing to accomplish. There was MUCH hate produced by this doctrine and MANY righteous people destroyed over it. And even then those that 'accept' it can STILL not explain it in ANY way that conforms to scripture.

You have offered valid argument against this 'doctrine'. I can see that you have devoted thought and understanding to this end and I, for one, and in agreement that 'trinity' is NOT valid theology except in the minds and hearts of those that would choose to follow 'men' rather than God through His Son.

MEC
 
mutzrein said:
Why is it then that those who do understand and who therefore cannot 'believe', are slated by those who 'believe' but don't know why? :-?

May I ask how i've slated you?
 
fnerb,

I don't know for a fact, but I 'believe' that Mutz was refering to 'others'. You have done well to state your views 'without' attacking those that do not agree with your point of view.

There ARE others however, that do not as well in that they CONTINUE to INSIST that those that do not accept 'trinity' are NOT SAVED, or LOST or VOID of understanding etc..... I believe that the statement Mutz made was to these and NOT you.

MEC
 
Fnerb said:
May I ask how i've slated you?

Fnerb - you have not slated me at all. I can assure you of that, so I'm sorry if by inference you thought I was accusing you.

There are others however who have 'slated' me. By virtue of my 'non-acceptance' of the trinity as it is commonly held to by Christendom, I have been falsely accused of many things. And so, I am blessed!

The Lord bless you
Ed
 
Brother said:
In the whole Bible we do NOT find a CLEAR-CUT statement that JESUS SAYS he is God.
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Joh 10:30 I and the Father are one."
Joh 10:31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, "I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?"
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God."

Brother said:
We also do NOT find the word "TRINITY."
Completely irrelevant.

Brother said:
Historians states that Jesus was not worshipped during his life time
Jesus is worshipped, according to what Scripture states:

Mat 2:2 saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."

Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.

Mat 14:33 And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Mat 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

Mat 28:17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. - notice how this ties in with Matt. 28:19.

Luk 24:52 And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

Joh 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"

Not once does Jesus say not to worship him. Your historians are wrong.

Brother said:
Historians also declare that the idea of Trinity was only invented three hundred years after Jesus.
It is more or less true but very misleading. The doctrine of the deity of Christ was obviously more defined and put into stone at Nicea, but acceptance of Christ as God can be seen in the first and second centuries. This was not something new, developed at Nicea.

Brother said:
Regarding to Matthew 28 : 29, it does not refer to a three persons in one divinity. Instead, it does not tell any thing. It is more similar to some one telling you that his school's certificate has signature of the school's manager as well as a teacher of mathematics and a teacher of English Literature. Then we can say that the certificate was certified in the name of the manager, the math's teacher and the literature's teacher. Ofcourse the three are NOT one manager.
Your analogy ignores the wording of Matt. 28:19:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

According to your analogy the above verse would have to read: "in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit". Instead, what we have is one name, consisting of the three Persons belonging to that one name. Read the verse in the context of verse 17.
 
Free said:
Your analogy ignores the wording of Matt. 28:19:

Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

According to your analogy the above verse would have to read: "in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit". Instead, what we have is one name, consisting of the three Persons belonging to that one name. Read the verse in the context of verse 17.
And the truth just keeps on rolling!!! :D

Good post, Free!
 
Firstly,

Christ DID NOT say, "I Am that I AM." as God stated to Moses. Therefore, His statement was NOT, "I AM God", He simply offered that before Abraham WAS, He WAS. I KNOW that man was 'created' FOR Christ. So this is a 'simple' indication that Christ, (or His 'planned' existence), predates, not only Abraham, but ALL men.

Secondly,

Christ STATED that 'we and He' ARE capable of 'being one'. And that a man and woman WED and 'become' ONE. And that The Body IS 'ONE'. So, how do you differentiate between THIS 'one' and the 'one' that Christ claims to be WITH the Father? You state that by Christ stating that He and The Father are 'one' that this makes them 'the same'. WRONG. We also can be 'one' with God through His Son. But this does NOT make 'us God'. Nor does the FACT that we were 'created' by God, make us God. A 'part', no doubt, but ONLY 'a part'. For there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. So, for what YOU offer, there MUST be a 'quadrinity'. The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and Man. This would make a 'four-headed god' instead of three. I guess you would have it; 'the MORE the merrier'.

The 'trinity' of Christianity offers that there are actually 'three gods' in ONE. They try to use the 'term' PERSONS, but in 'reality', what they are TRULY saying is that there are three gods in one. For 'each' IS separate in 'form' if not in function. Yet 'trinitarians' insist that these threee are NOT separate in ANY way but simply 'parts' of THE SAME GOD. Yet, God's OWN CHOSEN PEOPLE know that there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. They do NOT wait upon 'God' to be 'manifest' in the flesh as their messiah. They wait on The Son of God, their King to be born on this planet. I know, I know, they got it ALL wrong, right? He he he. That's REDICULOUS. You take the words of the prophets concerning Christ that you can 'use' to prove a point, and then would say that these didn't even KNOW what they were talking about. Real funny. That's kinda like 'having your cake and eating it TOO' isn't it.
Yes Solo, the Truth DOES keep on 'rollin'.

MEC
 
Brother,

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

In John 20:26-29 we see Jesus allowing Thomas to "believe" He is God. I agree with your previous post when you said God is not a God of confusion. To allow Thomas (and everyone else listening) to call Him "God" would be very confusing indeed, if it weren't true.

The doctrine of the Trinity is hard (impossible??) for our merely human minds to comprehend, and I think that's as it should be, especially when we are talking about the nature of God. Would you believe in a God whose nature you could fully understand? I couldn't. The fact that the God of Christianity is a Triune God rings true.

God Bless, Mark
 
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