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The Insecurity of Calvinism

Hello HisSheep,

I like your sense of humour but not your theology!!

Please keep it up (the sense of humour I mean!!!) :)

Thank you for your honest approach rather than just bashing as many are wont to do.

Theologically, I feel I am in good company in agreeing with Spurgeon. Are you familliar with his teachings? Did you have time to read the sermon I cited?

Really, it is not my theology, but biblical theology; like it or not.

-HisSheep
 
A is your ONLY option. B will seal your DOOM...

I don’t think Eventide presented his A and B as independent options, but as steps required to salvation. Am I right, Eventide? First, one must believe, and then….nothing.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:31)

I think Eventide is basically saying that no additional conditions may be added to salvation. Jesus has fully paid the price for His redeemed. He has bought them by His blood.

Eventide is repeating one of the key messages of the reformers, “by faith alone…â€.

Some bible teachers (such as Les Feldick) have said it like this, “Jesus plus nothing equals salvation.â€

All of the work of salvation is Jesus’. He is seated. His work is done. It is finished.

Who prefers a theology in which some of the work is theirs? And from where (in the bible) do they get it?

Off to work!

-HisSheep
 
I don’t think Eventide presented his A and B as independent options, but as steps required to salvation. Am I right, Eventide? First, one must believe, and then….nothing.

No, that's not right.

I was speaking within the context of monergism versus synergism with respect to salvation.

What must I do to be saved ?

The Calvin model claims that it is monergistic.. meaning that God regenerates me FIRST so that I do believe.

The Scriptural model is synergistic in that I must believe in order to be saved.

God does not regenerate me so that I do believe.. He convicts me so that I can believe..

No doubt that faith originates with God and is based upon the evidence of the gospel itself.. combined with the Spirit's conviction.. That is God's work in the hearts and minds of men as He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

Every man comes to the same crossroad.. save your life and you shall lose it, or lose it for Him and the gospel and you shall save it..

And God from the beginning has chosen us to salvation through the Spirit's sanctifying work, and by believing the truth. And for those who receive not the love of the truth that they (too) might be saved.. they reap exactly what God said they would in seeking to save their own life.
 
I don’t think Eventide presented his A and B as independent options, but as steps required to salvation. Am I right, Eventide? First, one must believe, and then….nothing.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved (Acts 16:31)

I think Eventide is basically saying that no additional conditions may be added to salvation. Jesus has fully paid the price for His redeemed. He has bought them by His blood.

Eventide is repeating one of the key messages of the reformers, “by faith alone…â€.

Some bible teachers (such as Les Feldick) have said it like this, “Jesus plus nothing equals salvation.â€

All of the work of salvation is Jesus’. He is seated. His work is done. It is finished.

Who prefers a theology in which some of the work is theirs? And from where (in the bible) do they get it?

Off to work!

-HisSheep

Actually, it says to believe on the LORD Jesus Christ... hmmmm. That does not suggest "do nothing!"
 
Re: That true Light..

I'll add that a) is biblical and that b) is unbiblical... and from the beginning this is God's 'condition' for all who are chosen to salvation.. belief of the truth.

And of course HE IS the way, the truth, and the life.

But of course those who claim that they could not believe the gospel then must criticize those who do believe the gospel.. and come up with the strawman that they were 'good enough' to believe the truth on their own.. as if the Spirit's conviction and the gospel of God concerning His Son had nothing to do with it.. ? ? ?
AGREED!!!
 
With only two choices (predestination or faith based belief) one of these has to be wrong. And since neither side will be convinced of the other sides argument, I guess we'll have to wait until we go before the Lord to find out...
 
As usual.. many struggle with the most simple aspects of the holy scriptures..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved

b) Nothing

Eventide, that is a misrepresentation of what HisSheep was saying. This is the common problem I have mentioned in another thread. The common replies to the concepts of Calvinism always involve distortions of Calvinistic teaching. HisSheep was not denying the necessity of faith for salvation. I believe it was you that mentioned a monergistic faith and a synergistic faith. Both of them are still human faith, the only difference is the source. In one, fallen human nature generates the faith that pleases God, in the other, it is the work of God in man by which faith comes. I would be very surprised if HisSheep would deny sola fide. The reformed believed in sola fide 100 years before the Arminians even came to exist.
 
I'd attend a Lollard church if I could only find one! ;)

Hi Mondar. I think Mondar is more educated than I am. For the record, I've never disagreed with any post of his I've read.

Yes I hold to sola fide all day long. But I don't consider "believing" to be an action taken on the part of a believer. Belief is not a work. It is an uncontrollable response to what we have personally witnessed. Anything less is only speculation.

Am I responsible for believing that the sun will set tonight?

Neither am I responsible for believing on Jesus; He has revealed the Father to me as Jesus said in Matt 11:27:

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


Having read that verse carefully, we must accept that Jesus reveals God to some people. The bible calls those people the elect.

-HisSheep
 
With only two choices (predestination or faith based belief) one of these has to be wrong. And since neither side will be convinced of the other sides argument, I guess we'll have to wait until we go before the Lord to find out...
Hate to be a stickler but you framed this predestination and faith as mutually exclusive and I believe this is not true, for faith is the evidence of things not yet seen and has everything to do with predestination. Jesus is like a stone thrown into a smooth pond that causes ripples unto every edge.
 
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me

There might appear to some to be some basics above that Jesus has to do.

A. Stand at the door of the mans house
B. Knock
C. Speak

Without the above there is no door knocked on. No voice heard. No opening to be made.

There is no amount of freewill that can force Jesus to come to the door, knock or speak of anyone.

Even then ones ears must be opened, ones eyes must be opened, one must be armed and afoot to have any response whatsoever, all and again the workings of Jesus within that person.

Jesus did also purposefully HIDE the Gospel from many! The majority in fact.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Many things in the Gospel and Word in general are hidden in plain sight.

There were also things hidden from the disciples:

Luke 9:
44 Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.
45 But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying.



How many times have YOU read the Gospels and wondered what in the world is Jesus talking about? I have many many many times. MANY....for YEARS...decades even.


No one can hear until GOD IN CHRIST shows them, PERIOD. The day I learned was the day GOD SHOWED ME how utterly stupid I was, and still am. Much easier to hear that way, thankfully. Pride and arrogant false knowledge is directly from the devil and demonic blinding. When God shows you that fact YOU WILL IN FACT HEAR from that moment on and you will also hear a whole lot more than you bargained for in the beginning.


You see it is not just the person, it is also the BLINDER at work...in....


EVERYONE....like the fact or not. You may not be able to HEAR this and you can not until God shows you. The scriptures can tell freewillers all the day long that the god of this world BLINDS MINDS of people so they can't hear and can't be saved. Yet those freewillers can't hear! They too are deaf. Deaf and blind to the open facts hidden right in front of their noses.


Most of you don't even know who your enemies are, and even less that God does work both sides of the ledgers.


In the majority of people it is GOD HIMSELF who elects to raise up the BLINDER, the 'god of this world' in their MINDS so that they can NOT hear. As much as you'd like them to hear, it's pointless if that is what God has elected to do. You could shout the Gospel from the treetops, and the god of this world will only strengthen in the minds of those people in whom God has elected to raise the god of this world to blind their minds.


Look! This scripture is right in front of your eyes, yet you can not see it or hear it:


Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

I read that scripture for 2 decades before God showed me the obvious and open facts. There is the person and there is the spirit of slumber that has been placed upon them.

Yep, pretty simple. But you can show this to freewillers and they will deny God did it, blame the people only and ignore the fact that there is a spirit of slumber also involved with that person.

Seriously, I desire that all believers could read better and that all people could hear and believe the Gospel. But in all the dialog that I had with believers of every sort not a single one could decipher the simplicity of the matter above until God showed me. I never heard it before until God showed me, opened my own eyes and ears to understandings.

And many of you cannot hear this either, though it's a simple fact, openly hid, right before your eyes. This post, the scriptures, none of it matters until God shows you. And if you can't hear, read or see, then God has in fact elected that you can not by the placement of that same spirit of slumber.

Doesn't mean I don't think you are saved. Not at all. But sometimes people get attacked after salvation much worse than prior. Much much worse.

When you step onto the battlefield, you best know your real enemies, and they are not your fellow supposedly freewill mankind. If you think that is the case you are sorely blinded. Sorely. Did I mention sorely?

Isaiah 44:18
They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.

enjoy your dilemma!

smaller
 
All good points Smaller,

The post is long enough though, that I’m afraid that many won’t read it thoroughly.

Never the less, I’d like to add to your list this question that the disciples asked of Jesus, followed by the Master’s straightforward reply:

Matthew 13:
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


My Arminian friends think (I’ve heard them actually say it...) that Jesus used parables as a masterful teaching technique, because He might reach more people through their imagery. But actually, He used parables to disguise His message so only those whom the Father enables will understand.

If you are a saved person today, you should thank God that He has saved you. He caused you to believe, by putting His Word in your ears and eyes, which He Himself has opened.

Your belief (faith) is not of yourself, it is the gift of God….

Sound familiar?

-HisSheep
 
With only two choices (predestination or faith based belief) one of these has to be wrong. And since neither side will be convinced of the other sides argument, I guess we'll have to wait until we go before the Lord to find out...
Hate to be a stickler but you framed this predestination and faith as mutually exclusive and I believe this is not true, for faith is the evidence of things not yet seen and has everything to do with predestination. Jesus is like a stone thrown into a smooth pond that causes ripples unto every edge.

Childeye, I’ve come to expect this sort of ham-fisted reasoning from the deniers of God’s sovereignty. It gets tiring to keep pointing it out. Kudos on you for calling it!

I’ve never heard anyone preach predestination apart from faith. The two work together.

God saves by granting faith to His elect. This is a plain and simple bible truth.

-HisSheep
 
All good points Smaller,

The post is long enough though, that I’m afraid that many won’t read it thoroughly.

Never the less, I’d like to add to your list this question that the disciples asked of Jesus, followed by the Master’s straightforward reply:

Matthew 13:
10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.


My Arminian friends think (I’ve heard them actually say it...) that Jesus used parables as a masterful teaching technique, because He might reach more people through their imagery. But actually, He used parables to disguise His message so only those whom the Father enables will understand.

If you are a saved person today, you should thank God that He has saved you. He caused you to believe, by putting His Word in your ears and eyes, which He Himself has opened.

Your belief (faith) is not of yourself, it is the gift of God….

Sound familiar?

-HisSheep

Freewillism is a logical fallacy of the theological kind that requires the elimination of both God and devil from interactions with mankinds mind and heart, futilely trying to make the man stand alone.

The scriptures make no such presentations.

God has in fact elected the majority to not hear by placing the spirit of stupor upon them all. That means there is the person and that spirit as separate entities.

All of us were at one time likewise blinded
. I do not find that any kind of a license to beat the blinded. Unfortunately that is the practice of the blinders of the pseudo religious kind, which same Jesus hated.

You see it was children of the devil who were in/upon the Pharisees of Israel. That was the spirit of slumber upon them, speaking and acting in those hypocrites, those play actors. Those men were in fact slaves of lying hypocritical darkness within their hearts. Many of their progeny remain so to this day.
Every unbeliever is also likewise blinded and captured. Just with different types of spirits. There are phony religious spirits, there are blinding spirits, there are vile spirits of the Legion kind. All of these are found 'in MAN.'

Jesus vehemently resisted the real enemies. Quite plainly pointed them out. Pinpointed them, even in disciples, even in Apostles! In some He cast them out. In others, mostly religious, He left them after correction and rebuke.

Again and unfortunately few see the difference between the person and the spirit of slumber in their various forms.

I strongly dislike slave-ship of the evil kind.

What God does in these matters however no man can change.

In the end, it remains solely His Choice as to who sees or if He elects to raise a vessel of dishonor OVER the person.

I believe Calvinism falls dramatically short in 'personal understanding' of this particular matter.


Every person who posts here at one time carried a spirit of slumber upon their minds. This much is a fact.

Now, how many have fallen even deeper is also easy to see. How you say? Why by not realizing that we all continue to see only in part, and even more WHY that is so.

See Romans 7:21 for Paul's personal confession of this fact. At least some were honest enough to tell the truth, which I thank God for.

s
 
With only two choices (predestination or faith based belief) one of these has to be wrong. And since neither side will be convinced of the other sides argument, I guess we'll have to wait until we go before the Lord to find out...

Hold on... I suggest that the Calvinists have redefined predestination to fit their philosophical position - which no believer ever held until Calvin defined it.

Respectfully

Adelphos
 
Hold on... I suggest that the Calvinists have redefined predestination to fit their philosophical position - which no believer ever held until Calvin defined it.

Respectfully

Adelphos

Wycliff and the Lollards held these very same beliefs...

Oh and Augustine too...

As did Peter and Paul...

And they all lived before Calvin.

-HisSheep
 
Hold on... I suggest that the Calvinists have redefined predestination to fit their philosophical position - which no believer ever held until Calvin defined it.

Respectfully

Adelphos
If there are opposing perspectives joining at the cross, all definitions change accordingly.
 
Wycliff and the Lollards held these very same beliefs...

Oh and Augustine too...

As did Peter and Paul...

And they all lived before Calvin.

-HisSheep

No! A careful reading would not agree. For example, the only one in history that ever taught double pre-destination before Calvin was, exactly, NO ONE!

Respectfully

Adelphos
 
No! A careful reading would not agree. For example, the only one in history that ever taught double pre-destination before Calvin was, exactly, NO ONE!

Respectfully

Adelphos
To debate this double predestination thing would be futile since as you have said, no one knows but God. Should we not rather hope that all will be saved and pray for all men?
 
No! A careful reading would not agree. For example, the only one in history that ever taught double pre-destination before Calvin was, exactly, NO ONE!

Respectfully

Adelphos

Not so. Jesus Himself taught it clearly in the parable of the wheat and tares.

Unbelievers fail to believe because they are not of God.

-HisSheep
 
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