"THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM"
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"THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM"
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
Mungo
Member
Another hate filled anti-Catholic vomit from CherubRam with no authoritative evidence.
I don't count some quotes from "Vicars of Christ: the Dark Side of the Papacy, DeRosa, 58" as authentic evidence (or anything by Alexander Hislop or Lorraine Boettner).
This is just vile anti-Catholic hate lies.
So, what makes you think Catholic history is spotless?
Mungo
Member
Yet another attempt by you to deflect the conversation.
What you posted was pure anti-Catholic bile with no authoritative evidence.
A despicable post.
Mungo
Member
This link quotes approving by from Alexander Hislop and his notorious book "The Two Babylons"
A popular project among some ant-Catholics is to identify the Catholic Church as the “whore of Babylon” from Revelation 17/18. The most notorious example to this in recent years was Alexander Hislop. He was a Scottish Presbyterian minister and in 1853 produced a pamphlet which in 1858 was expanded to a book. Its theme was to link the religion of ancient Babylon with that of the Catholic Church. It was full of footnotes and sketches to show extensive similarities and which gave an impression of serious scholarship.
However there are two major problems with his thesis:
Firstly his claims turned out to be bogus. He simply invented information about Babylonia which doesn’t exist. Likewise his diagrams and sketches were just a product of his imagination,
Secondly he made links without any causal evidence, avoiding more realistic causal links. For example he claimed that the Babylonians offered round wafers to their God, the same a Catholic hosts at the Catholic Mass. His Babylonian claim was false, he showed no link as to how the Catholic Church took this from Babylon, and ignored the obvious point that the Matzo bread which Jesus broke at the last supper was flat round unleavened bread. Also manna is described as round (Ex 16:14) and like wafers (Ex16:31)
As Wikipedia says: "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".[3][4]
The Two Babylons - Wikipedia
The two bits in quotation marks are referenced in footnotes [3][4] in Wikipedia as from
[3] Book Review: Plan 9 From Saturday Christian Book Reviews November 12th, 2005
[4] Book Review: Honesty is the Best Policy Christian Book Reviews November 12th, 2005
Hislop’s claims were extensively investigated by Ralph Woodrow, an evangelical minister who completely destroyed Hislop’s claims in his book The Babylon Connection?
The reviewer of Woodrow's The Babylon Connection? says:
The Babylon Connection? is a devastating critique of Hislop and his many imitators. Almost from the first page, the shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty, and personal prejudices of Alexander Hislop are quite evident. By the end of the first chapter, none except those suffering from “black helicopters over America” paranoia could possibly view Hislop as anything but a crackpot and a fraud. Woodrow presses on, however, and in painstaking detail demonstrates Hislop’s lack of scholarly integrity. As one who was formerly believed Hislop to be a credible source, Woodrow understands the mindset of those fooled by this belief system and he leaves their delusions in tatters. When it is over, nothing of Hislop’s rhetorical edifice is left standing.
(http://labarum.net/)
Despite this extensive debunking of Hislop’s claims you will find them rampant among anti-Catholic web sites, which feed off each other. Gullible Christians still assume they are true and the Catholic Church is a pagan version of Babylonian religion.
Mungo
Member
This link also quotes Lorraine Boettner, another anti-Catholic bigot.
Loraine Boettner was a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. In 1962 he published a book called Roman Catholicism which has become a major source for anti-Catholic evangelicals. Like Hislop’s The Two Babylons it lacks intellectual rigour. As Karl Keating says in Catholicism and Fundamentalism:
“.. he shows virtually no familiarity with the writings of the first several centuries of the Christian era. He skips from the Bible to nineteenth- and twentieth –century anti-Catholic works…..Boettner accepts at face value any claim made by an enemy of the Church. (p29-30)
Boettner claims Popes or Catholic writers have said x, y & z but provides no citation to allow his claims to be checked.
As is very common with anti-Catholics Boettner makes little effort to find out what the Catholic Church actually teaches but presents a caricature of the Catholic position against which he then argues. He also produced a list of supposed “inventions” by the Catholic Church (the Boettner List) which “proves” that the Catholic Church is not the Church that Christ founded.
I quote from Catholic Answers:
Boettner accepts at face value virtually any claim made by an opponent of the Church. Even when verification of a charge is easy, he does not bother to check it out. If he finds something unflattering to Catholicism, he prints it.
Boettner’s Roman Catholicism contains a mere two dozen footnotes, all of them added to recent reprintings to reflect minor changes in the Catholic Church since the Second Vatican Council. Within the text, biblical passages are properly cited, but references to Catholic works are so vague as to discourage checking by making it difficult or impossible to locate the work or the reference. Many times there is no reference. A certain pope will be alleged to have said something—but there is no citation given to support the claim. A Catholic author of the seventeenth century is alleged to have claimed something—but again no reference that can be checked. Sometimes there may be mention of a Catholic book, but no page number or publication information given.
By contrast, when non-Catholic authors are cited, the reference usually includes title and page number. One suspects that Boettener took his alleged Catholic quotations and citations from Protestant works and then deliberately failed to reference them in order to conceal the extent to which he is dependant on secondary sources. This is a common tactic among writers who have not done primary source research and rely on second-hand sources.
What is even worse, Boettner seems to have no appreciation of the Catholic Church from the inside. He seems to have made little effort to learn what the Catholic Church says about itself or how Catholics answer the objections he makes. His "inside information" comes from disaffected ex-priests such as Emmett McLoughlin and L. H. Lehmann, or outright crackpots like the nineteenth-century sensationalist Charles Chiniquy.
The Anti-Catholic Bible
Loraine Boettner’s work, Roman Catholicism, is the source of many modern anti-Catholic claims, but the book is fraught with problems.
Unfortunately as with Alexander Hislop’s The Two Babylons these are devoured uncritically and passed around by anti-Catholics and appear regularly on their websites.
I initiated a thread on this subject a while back. Here's the link to it.
Peter NOT the 1st pope: Analysis Matthew 16 - Peter and the keys of the kingdom
Matthew 16 analysis - Peter being the first so-called pope and provided with the keys of the kingdom Matthew 16:15-19 - Catholics erroneously use these verses, and primarily verse 19, as rationale and justification for claiming Peter was established thereby as the first pope. However, when you...
christianforums.net
Mungo
Member
And your claims were debunked there.
Debunked by who or what, you? Just read the scriptures, they speak for themselves and can't be debunked.
Mungo
Member
Read the replies to which you had no answer.
No answer was warranted
Mungo
Member
Meaning you had none.
I looked around on the Internet and other scholars say the same thing.This link quotes approving by from Alexander Hislop and his notorious book "The Two Babylons"
A popular project among some ant-Catholics is to identify the Catholic Church as the “whore of Babylon” from Revelation 17/18. The most notorious example to this in recent years was Alexander Hislop. He was a Scottish Presbyterian minister and in 1853 produced a pamphlet which in 1858 was expanded to a book. Its theme was to link the religion of ancient Babylon with that of the Catholic Church. It was full of footnotes and sketches to show extensive similarities and which gave an impression of serious scholarship.
However there are two major problems with his thesis:
Firstly his claims turned out to be bogus. He simply invented information about Babylonia which doesn’t exist. Likewise his diagrams and sketches were just a product of his imagination,
Secondly he made links without any causal evidence, avoiding more realistic causal links. For example he claimed that the Babylonians offered round wafers to their God, the same a Catholic hosts at the Catholic Mass. His Babylonian claim was false, he showed no link as to how the Catholic Church took this from Babylon, and ignored the obvious point that the Matzo bread which Jesus broke at the last supper was flat round unleavened bread. Also manna is described as round (Ex 16:14) and like wafers (Ex16:31)
As Wikipedia says: "tribute to historical inaccuracy and know-nothing religious bigotry" with "shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty" and a "nonsensical thesis".[3][4]
The Two Babylons - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The two bits in quotation marks are referenced in footnotes [3][4] in Wikipedia as from
[3] Book Review: Plan 9 From Saturday Christian Book Reviews November 12th, 2005
[4] Book Review: Honesty is the Best Policy Christian Book Reviews November 12th, 2005
Hislop’s claims were extensively investigated by Ralph Woodrow, an evangelical minister who completely destroyed Hislop’s claims in his book The Babylon Connection?
The reviewer of Woodrow's The Babylon Connection? says:
The Babylon Connection? is a devastating critique of Hislop and his many imitators. Almost from the first page, the shoddy scholarship, blatant dishonesty, and personal prejudices of Alexander Hislop are quite evident. By the end of the first chapter, none except those suffering from “black helicopters over America” paranoia could possibly view Hislop as anything but a crackpot and a fraud. Woodrow presses on, however, and in painstaking detail demonstrates Hislop’s lack of scholarly integrity. As one who was formerly believed Hislop to be a credible source, Woodrow understands the mindset of those fooled by this belief system and he leaves their delusions in tatters. When it is over, nothing of Hislop’s rhetorical edifice is left standing.
(http://labarum.net/)
Despite this extensive debunking of Hislop’s claims you will find them rampant among anti-Catholic web sites, which feed off each other. Gullible Christians still assume they are true and the Catholic Church is a pagan version of Babylonian religion.
The Evangelical Quarterly 13 (October 15th, 1941): 241-261.
While in Rome.
1 Peter 5:13
She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends you her greetings, and so does my son Mark.
"She" is new Christian converts in Rome.
2 Timothy 4:11
Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry.
Mungo
Member
That addresses nothing.
As I said before regarding your OP:
Another hate filled anti-Catholic vomit from CherubRam with no authoritative evidence.
I don't count some quotes from "Vicars of Christ: the Dark Side of the Papacy, DeRosa, 58" as authentic evidence (or anything by Alexander Hislop or Lorraine Boettner).
This is just vile anti-Catholic hate lies.
Mungo
Member
Just more rubbish from Alexander Hislop.