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Bible Study The limitations of God-given human sovereignty

J

JohnD

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Set aside there are nearly 8 billion people on planet Earth all vying for personal sovereignty in the tiny parcel we occupy or influence... on this speck of a planet in the vastness of the universe...
 
Any person who might believe in "personal sovereigty" would be deluded. There is only one Sovereign in this universe -- the Lord God Almighty.
 
I believe that you are speaking of people who are not God's children, right? The world of sinners seek their own sovereignty, that makes sense to me as true.
 
God is sovereign, in that he rules and reigns over the universe, but he has control over his sovereignty and has allowed human beings a measure of freedom over his Creation in giving them dominion. He then holds us responsible, because we are accountable for the actions we commit or don't commit. God will ultimately work everything to his ultimate and good purpose, that doesn't mean he controls every thing that ever happens as sometimes he merely permits things to happen.
 
Well, Chopper, yes and no.
Believers are in the habit of telling God no (Jonah) and grieving the Holy Spirit, and having a need to restore fellowship through confession... pretty much sums up self will in believers also. Don't you think?
 
JohnD said:
Remember... it is God who gave man that ability... that limited sovereignty.
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The more appropriate term would be "free will".
That still operates under the sovereignty of God, and also under the Law of Sowing and Reaping. Whatever a man sows he reaps.
 
Doulos Iesou said:
God is sovereign, in that he rules and reigns over the universe, but he has control over his sovereignty and has allowed human beings a measure of freedom over his Creation in giving them dominion. He then holds us responsible, because we are accountable for the actions we commit or don't commit. God will ultimately work everything to his ultimate and good purpose, that doesn't mean he controls every thing that ever happens as sometimes he merely permits things to happen.
Click to expand...

God is the overall orchestrator of all things**. But within the overall sovereignty of God is the granted limited sovereignty of man (or there would be no actual choice at all).

1 John 2:5 (KJV)
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Choice.

**Romans 8:28
 
JohnD said:
Well, Chopper, yes and no.
Believers are in the habit of telling God no (Jonah) and grieving the Holy Spirit, and having a need to restore fellowship through confession... pretty much sums up self will in believers also. Don't you think?
Click to expand...
Self-will is not sovereignty. The Creator remains the Sovereign, while the creature is allowed freedom to make choices, whether good or bad. Sovereignty by definition belongs to the One who rules the universe. Adam lost the "dominion" given to him at creation. That has reverted back to Christ, who is Sovereign.
 
Sinthesis said:
Indeed, in His image.
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Interesting subject "in his image."

Before the physical creation (the universe we now know), God the Word in conference with God the Father said "Let us make man in our own image."

Until the Father made the body of the Son (Jesus), he had not created anything (John 1:14b / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

But the Son (preincarnate) was the lone creator of all things created in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2).

Yet using foreknowledge (omniscience) he created mankind in the image the Father would create his human body. Let us make man in our image...

Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

"our" image...

The form I shall take that you shall make I will make my brethren (mankind) like.

So our being made in the image of God is not so much a superiority over anything as it is according to the precise make up of our kinsman redeemer...
 
Malachi said:
Self-will is not sovereignty. The Creator remains the Sovereign, while the creature is allowed freedom to make choices, whether good or bad. Sovereignty by definition belongs to the One who rules the universe. Adam lost the "dominion" given to him at creation. That has reverted back to Christ, who is Sovereign.
Click to expand...

Um, the I suppose the rule of governance as a sovereign nation doesn't line up with your personal definition of sovereign?

There is a fine line here between self autonomy and self will and in this case, defiance. But it is all the same...

Little Johnny was so worked up from recess that he just could not sit still until the teacher forcibly sat him down in his chair. Little Johnny replied "I may be sitting down on the outside but I am standing up on the inside."

With some folks, their resolve to never give in transcends life or death.

Or sovereignty in other words.
 
JohnD said:
Interesting subject "in his image."

Before the physical creation (the universe we now know), God the Word in conference with God the Father said "Let us make man in our own image."

Until the Father made the body of the Son (Jesus), he had not created anything (John 1:14b / Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5).

But the Son (preincarnate) was the lone creator of all things created in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 / John 1:1-3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2).

Yet using foreknowledge (omniscience) he created mankind in the image the Father would create his human body. Let us make man in our image...

Colossians 1:15 (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

"our" image...

The form I shall take that you shall make I will make my brethren (mankind) like.

So our being made in the image of God is not so much a superiority over anything as it is according to the precise make up of our kinsman redeemer...
Click to expand...

I don't think "in His image" has anything to do with the physical body. Rather it has to do with the pattern of how we perceive and relate to the world. We can experience creation in the way the uncreated Word of God does. Essential to that is the sovereignty of will, meaning we are not just puppets controlled by the strings of nature's laws.
 
I don't believe that having free will makes us sovereign. Oh it's a nice thought, and I was all over it reading our forefathers writings, but have come to learn that we are not sovereign in the least. The most we have is free will and liberty, neither of which give us power or authority.

God created us for His pleasure and reasons. We belong to Him, not ourselves. Our life is not our own.
 
JohnD said:
???

What about Mars?
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God is sovereign over our entire universe. Genesis says that He made everything, the starts & planets also and so forth, so it would have to be yes. Every Martian knee shall bow...I think that's in numbers somewhere, lol.

images
 
JohnD said:
Well, Chopper, yes and no.
Believers are in the habit of telling God no (Jonah) and grieving the Holy Spirit, and having a need to restore fellowship through confession... pretty much sums up self will in believers also. Don't you think?
Click to expand...
Yep! sums it up old Buddy.
 
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