The man of sin

[Shilohsfoal]

In 2 thes 2;4 Paul describes a man-
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God ,or that is worshiped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,showing himself that he is God.
The book of Daniel also discibes him in like manner-
Dan 11;36
And the king shall do according to his will;and he shall exalt himself,and magnofy himself above every god,and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods,and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;for that that is determined shall be done.
Paul says that this man would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus in
2 thes2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consumue with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;
Daniel also records his death as well in
Dan 11;45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;yet he shall come to his end,and none shall help him.

According to the book of Daniel it will be "at that time" that Daniel's people will be deliverd in Daniel 12;1-2 and those that sleep in the dust shall rise.Also Paul said that after this man of sin is revealed that we would be gatherd unto Christ-see 2thes 2;1-3.

So Im going to give the preterists on this board a chance to convince me that this has already taken place.All I want is the date of the coming of Christ when he destroyed this man of sin and those that slept in the dust were awaken and what was the name of that man of sin who the Lord destroyed with the brightness of his coming?

 

[Matthew24:34]

In 2 thes 2;4 Paul describes a man-
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God ,or that is worshiped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,showing himself that he is God.
The book of Daniel also discibes him in like manner-
Dan 11;36
And the king shall do according to his will;and he shall exalt himself,and magnofy himself above every god,and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods,and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;for that that is determined shall be done.
Paul says that this man would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus in
2 thes2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consumue with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;
Daniel also records his death as well in
Dan 11;45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;yet he shall come to his end,and none shall help him.

According to the book of Daniel it will be "at that time" that Daniel's people will be deliverd in Daniel 12;1-2 and those that sleep in the dust shall rise.Also Paul said that after this man of sin is revealed that we would be gatherd unto Christ-see 2thes 2;1-3.

So Im going to give the preterists on this board a chance to convince me that this has already taken place.All I want is the date of the coming of Christ when he destroyed this man of sin and those that slept in the dust were awaken and what was the name of that man of sin who the Lord destroyed with the brightness of his coming?

Shilohsfoal: I would be much more than glad to provide that information. It is, however, my daughter's 18th birthday today, so I will not be able to do so now. I will be starting with Daniel 9! Talk to you soon!

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

So Im going to give the preterists on this board a chance to convince me that this has already taken place.All I want is the date of the coming of Christ when he destroyed this man of sin and those that slept in the dust were awaken and what was the name of that man of sin who the Lord destroyed with the brightness of his coming?

Im not looking for three pages of scripture.Just the name of this man of sin and the date he was consumed at Jesus coming when Jesus raised those who sleep in the dust.

 

[Joe67]

2 Cor 1:9-10
9 yea, we ourselves have had the sentence of death within ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raiseth the dead:

10 who delivered us out of so great a death, and will deliver: on whom we have set our hope that he will also still deliver us; ASV

A three-fold cord(of understanding) is not soon broken

Joe

 

[Matthew24:34]

In 2 thes 2;4 Paul describes a man-
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God ,or that is worshiped;so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,showing himself that he is God.
The book of Daniel also discibes him in like manner-
Dan 11;36
And the king shall do according to his will;and he shall exalt himself,and magnofy himself above every god,and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods,and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished;for that that is determined shall be done.
Paul says that this man would be destroyed at the coming of Jesus in
2 thes2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consumue with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming;
Daniel also records his death as well in
Dan 11;45
And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain;yet he shall come to his end,and none shall help him.

According to the book of Daniel it will be "at that time" that Daniel's people will be deliverd in Daniel 12;1-2 and those that sleep in the dust shall rise.Also Paul said that after this man of sin is revealed that we would be gatherd unto Christ-see 2thes 2;1-3.

So Im going to give the preterists on this board a chance to convince me that this has already taken place.All I want is the date of the coming of Christ when he destroyed this man of sin and those that slept in the dust were awaken and what was the name of that man of sin who the Lord destroyed with the brightness of his coming?

Shilohsfoal: I would be much more than glad to provide that information. It is, however, my daughter's 18th birthday today, so I will not be able to do so now. I will be starting with Daniel 9! Talk to you soon!

Matthew24:34

Sorry, Shilohsfoal for taking so long to get back to you. The month of May is a VERY busy month for me-preparation for two significant birthdays, sports banquet, senior banquet, graduation parties, etc.! It's all great stuff but very time consuming! We have homeschooled all five of our children--this month we graduate the last. I will miss it!

Anyway, I said I would begin with Daniel 9. I will try to be as brief as possible, but I believe the "people of the prince to come" is significant to our discussion. Who is the prince who is to come? I believe it to be none other than the Messiah--the Messiah who makes a covenant! Time will not permit me to go into greater detail here, but I am willing to expand upon this if there is interest.

An invetigation of what actually took place in the context of the Jewish Wars with Rome and the ultimate assault on and siege of the city of Jersusalem reveals that much of the trouble that came upon the Jews was a direct result of their inciteful dealings with Rome! Apparently, Rome was not interested in a full-blown conflict with the Jews, but the Jews continued to instigate and irritate until it could no longer be averted. In this sense, the Jews themselves brought the destruction of their Temple and Jerusalem. The crucifixion of our Lord is similarly attributed to them although they did not actually nail Him to the cross and kill Him!

According to Josephus, there was much turmoil going on inside the walls of Jerusalem while it was surrounded by the Roman armies. The Zealots were the main perpetrators of the hatred against Rome. The Jews under Ananus apparently wanted to maintain peace. It was not until this restraining power of the priesthood was taken out of the way that the "man of sin" could be revealed. The Zealots enlisted the aid of the Idumeans and succeeded in murdering Ananus along with about 12,000 other priests! In direct violation of Jewish law, they left the bodies unburied. The priesthood was for all intents and purposes destroyed. The Zealots then had free reign within the city (The Man of Sin by John Noe). This is what Josephus wrote:

"I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city; and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her walls, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high-priest, and the procurer of their preservation; slain in the midst of their city; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived that would have certainly compounded matters . . . and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these great defenders and wellwishers."

A leader of the Zealots by the name of John of Gischala, the son of Levi, "physically entered the Temple, presented himself to the Zealots as a God-sent ambassador; and persuaded them to defy the laws of Rome and go to war to gain independence" (Noe). It was he who ordered the deaths of Ananus and the 12,000 priests. He set fire to the storehouses which greatly shortened the Jews' ability to survive their imprisonment within the walls of the city. He performed heinous acts of sacrilege which included "melting down the sacred utensils used in Temple service, and defiled the Temple. In short, this John established himself in the Temple, the one standing when Paul wrote [Herod's Temple--insert mine] and put himself above Rome and above God, thereby taking the place of God in the Temple. All this happened, right then and there, and exactly as Paul had said the 'man of sin' would do" (Noe). He was "destroyed" at the parousia (A. D. 70) in that he was removed from all authority and for the remainder of his life imprisoned by the Romans!

This all fits very well the statement in Daniel concerning the "people of the prince who is to come." Again, Titus did not want to destroy the Temple. The Romans preferred to keep it as a conquest. According to Josephus, Josephus himself pleaded with John of Gischala to surrender to the Roman authorities because there was absolutely no hope of victory. Against all reason, John refused. It is in this sense that the "people of the prince who is to come" destroyed the "city and the sanctuary!" (Dan. 9).

Paul gives absolutely no indication that he is speaking of anyone other than someone contemporaneous to himself. He in no way even hints that he is speaking of any other Temple than Herod's Temple! Furthermore, he clearly states that his hearers knew the restrainer! That is the context, shilohsfoal!
Paul and those Thessalonians were troubled because they expected the day of the Lord in their lifetimes but there were those who were teaching that it had already come! Paul does not correct their expectation of its imminency and soonness but rather seeks to assure them that they had not missed it. It was still coming in their lifetime as Jesus had taught, but certain things had to take place first.
The fact that they thought they could have missed it reveals that their perception of His coming and what is commonly taught today are worlds apart! Paul proceeded to tell them again how it was all going to play out. There would have to first be the "falling away." This is evident in the apostate actions of the Zealots within the walls of Jerusalem. Once the high priest, Ananus, was removed, the "man of sin," John of Gischala, was revealed. Paul and those very Thessalonians KNEW the restrainer! The man of sin then deceived those who perished in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans by convincing them they could emerge victorious. God sent them "strong delusion," they believed "the lie," and perished!

The timing of all of this can be clearly seen if we back up to the beginning of the book! Those very Thessalonians were enduring great "persecutions and tribulations." Paul comforts THEM by telling THEM that God was going to "repay with tribulation" those who troubled THEM. He was going to give those very Thessalonians "rest." When? When the Lord Jesus was "revealed from heaven with His mighty angels" (same event as Matthew 24 and Matthew 16 which was going to involve those of THAT generation). In chapter two, Paul goes into greater detail of the players and events of that first-century generation in which the Lord would come!

There is absolutely no justification for ripping these verses out of their context and thrusting them into our future! Clearly, these words of Paul to the Thessalonians affected and involved them personally! It is not the fault of Scripture that many cannot see what is plainly under their noses.

Sincerely, in Christ, Preterist

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
There is absolutely no justification for ripping these verses out of their context and thrusting them into our future! Clearly, these words of Paul to the Thessalonians affected and involved them personally! It is not the fault of Scripture that many cannot see what is plainly under their noses.

If you are going to be consistent with your 'rules' of 'justification', and apply them in the same manner to the rest of the Bible, then there is also no justification for ripping Revelation chapters 6-20 out of context and treating them as being symbolic and allegorical, not describing them as literal events. To arbitrarily deny the literal nature of select portions of Revelation is to destroy the basis of interpreting any of the book literally. If the seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses, 144,000, beast, false prophet, millennial kingdom, etc., are allegorical or symbolic, on what basis do you claim that the Second Coming of Christ and the New Heaven & New Earth are literal? Who were the Two Witnesses? When did Titus “set up†the abomination of desolation in the Temple? Historically, he just destroyed the Temple and burned it to the ground. And how do you interpret the “Thousand Years†(Millennium)?

 

[Joe67]

The highest significance of every testimony of the Spirit is concerning the Father and the Son and the body that has been chosen for the Son, thus the family of God.

The Spirit of Christ testifies through lesser meanings such as historical, biological, ceremonial,political; to lead us to that meaning that will endure through death.

Ps 40:7
7 Then said I, lo, I am come; in the roll of the book it is written of me: ASV
Heb 10:7
7 Then said I, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God. ASV

1 Peter 1:9-12
9 receiving the end of your faith, (even) the salvation of (your) souls.
10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that (should come) unto you:

11 searching what (time) or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angels desire to look into. ASV

John 17:20
20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; ASV

Jesus sent the apostles out in his name to testify to us concerning the end, when the kingdom is handed over to the Father to chasten his children, while it is called today. Then we will all know Him, from the least to the greatest. Then we will know if we follow on to know the Lord. Hosea 6:1-3.

The man of sin will present one of the symbols as immutable, eternal; and thereby attempt to sit in the seat that belongs only to Jesus our Lord, the Christ of the Father.

Joe

 

[Shilohsfoal]

"Matthew24:34"
Once the high priest, Ananus, was removed, the "man of sin," John of Gischala, was revealed. Paul and those very Thessalonians KNEW the restrainer! The man of sin then deceived those who perished in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans by convincing them they could emerge victorious. God sent them "strong delusion," they believed "the lie," and perished!

2thes 2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.


So what you saying the Romans putting John of Giscala in prison is the same thing as Jesus destroying him with the brightness of his coming?Repeat after me,The Romans is not Jesus.The Romans is not Jesus.One more time.The Romans is not Jesus.


John of Giscala
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
John of Giscala (Yohanan me-Gush Halav) (Hebrew: יוחנן מגוש חלב‎) or Johannes ben Levi (birth date unknown; death date after 70), was a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War.

The Romans attacked Gush Halav (modern Jish), John's home town in the Upper Galilee and burned it to the ground. John helped to rebuild the city, hereby gaining the support of the people of the town. He used these people and about 500 fugitives to organize a large resistance against the Romans. Altogether their numbers reached about 5,000. When he asked Josephus if he could attack the emperor's grain store Josephus, at that time the governor of Galilee, refused. John took the grain store anyway and then built walls around Giscala. This sparked Josephus's long-term hatred of John.[citation needed] This also started the Northern part of the First Jewish-Roman War.[citation needed] After John's revolt in the North was put down by Vespasian, John fled to Jerusalem. After Jerusalem was taken, John was taken to Rome. According to Josephus he was sentenced to life in prison.[citation needed]

 

[Matthew24:34]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
There is absolutely no justification for ripping these verses out of their context and thrusting them into our future! Clearly, these words of Paul to the Thessalonians affected and involved them personally! It is not the fault of Scripture that many cannot see what is plainly under their noses.

If you are going to be consistent with your 'rules' of 'justification', and apply them in the same manner to the rest of the Bible, then there is also no justification for ripping Revelation chapters 6-20 out of context and treating them as being symbolic and allegorical, not describing them as literal events. To arbitrarily deny the literal nature of select portions of Revelation is to destroy the basis of interpreting any of the book literally. If the seals, trumpets, bowls, witnesses, 144,000, beast, false prophet, millennial kingdom, etc., are allegorical or symbolic, on what basis do you claim that the Second Coming of Christ and the New Heaven & New Earth are literal? Who were the Two Witnesses? When did Titus “set up†the abomination of desolation in the Temple? Historically, he just destroyed the Temple and burned it to the ground. And how do you interpret the “Thousand Years†(Millennium)?

Osgiliath: Where is it written that Titus was to set up the abomination in the Temple? Again, we MUST interpret the Revelation within the clear confines of the time frame established by the book itself. John was shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place, Osgiliath. The time was THEN near for the fulfillment of those things. If you will not start there, you will never understand the book!

Furthermore, I never said that the New Heavens and New Earth are literal. The Old Heavens and Old Earth are representative of the stoikeia of 2 Peter 3--the "elements" of rules and precepts. The "elements" of the old system under Judaism with its types and shadows were destroyed at His coming when the Temple and the city were destroyed. This has nothing to do with the physical earth! That is the basis for much error today. The writer of Hebrews spoke of these things. He compared the Old to the New and clearly indicated that already the old was becoming obsolete, growing old and ready to pass away--in that day (Heb. 8)!

Also remember that this was a vision. Do you take literally all the aspects of Daniel's vision. Were they not symbolic? Why would you take John's vision in any other way? The 144,000 and the 1,000-year reign are large, rounded numbers used symbolically. The 144,000 represent the tribes and the 1,000 represents completeness in much the same way as God owning the cattle on a thousand years.

Your insistence on rigid literalness is the main factor preventing you from accepting the clear time restraints placed on the events of this book. John was given the timing in both the first and last chapters. You cannot "see" how the things prophesied within the book have happened literally, so you, therefore, throw out the obvious time restrictions placed upon them. You want me to give you an explanation for the 144,000, the two witnesses, etc. when you yourself will not explain to me the clear meaning of simple words such as SHORTLY and NEAR! What do those words mean, Osgiliath? Will you explain to me why they are ignored or redefined by futurists?

We WILL find the meaning and the fulfillment of ALL the things about which you questioned me, WHEN we acknowledge that they are to be found in THAT time period which was clearly given to John!

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

"Matthew24:34"
Once the high priest, Ananus, was removed, the "man of sin," John of Gischala, was revealed. Paul and those very Thessalonians KNEW the restrainer! The man of sin then deceived those who perished in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans by convincing them they could emerge victorious. God sent them "strong delusion," they believed "the lie," and perished!

2thes 2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.


So what you saying the Romans putting John of Giscala in prison is the same thing as Jesus destroying him with the brightness of his coming?Repeat after me,The Romans is not Jesus.The Romans is not Jesus.One more time.The Romans is not Jesus.


John of Giscala
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
John of Giscala (Yohanan me-Gush Halav) (Hebrew: יוחנן מגוש חלב‎) or Johannes ben Levi (birth date unknown; death date after 70), was a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War.

The Romans attacked Gush Halav (modern Jish), John's home town in the Upper Galilee and burned it to the ground. John helped to rebuild the city, hereby gaining the support of the people of the town. He used these people and about 500 fugitives to organize a large resistance against the Romans. Altogether their numbers reached about 5,000. When he asked Josephus if he could attack the emperor's grain store Josephus, at that time the governor of Galilee, refused. John took the grain store anyway and then built walls around Giscala. This sparked Josephus's long-term hatred of John.[citation needed] This also started the Northern part of the First Jewish-Roman War.[citation needed] After John's revolt in the North was put down by Vespasian, John fled to Jerusalem. After Jerusalem was taken, John was taken to Rome. According to Josephus he was sentenced to life in prison.[citation needed]

Shilohsfoal: Is it not God's standard pattern to exact His punishment upon nations and peoples through the instrumentality of other nations and peoples? Did He not clearly do so when He brought the Babylonians against Israel? Was it not so when He punished Edom and Egypt (see Isaiah 13 and 34)?
The Romans were clearly used of God to bring judgment against that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 generation of Jews guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). They were Jesus' instruments! They acted on Jesus' behalf according to His will!

Furthermore, shiloahfoal, there are many ways to be destroyed without being put to death or in some other way annihilated. When the Temple and the city were brought to the ground and destroyed, so were the blasphemous works of John of Gischala. They were brought to an end by the "brightness" of the truth! If you must insist on some literal brightness that was to bring about some literal, physical destruction against the "man of sin," you must also contend that somehow Christ literally consumed him with His breath! Did this same Jesus have a literal sword in His mouth as seen in the Revelation? Do you not see that this is symbolic in much the same way as God in the OT was pictured as having a sword. Did God have a literal sword "bathed in heaven" when He came against Edom and was it literally filled with blood (Isa. 34:5)?

Shilohsfoal, what is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2? Do you not see that those very Thessalonians were to know who or what restrained that man of sin? If the restrainer was around in their day, so was the man of sin! That is the context. No one is more familiar than I concerning the neglect of context. I was taught many things as a dispensationalist and most of those things were a direct result of a failure to acknowledge when and to whom things were written and applied!

Again, chapter two of 2 Thessalonians follows chapter 1. In chapter one, Paul makes it clear that those very Thessalonians to whom he was writing were to themselves personally experience God's rest AT HIS APPEARING! And those very persecutors of those very Thessalonians were to be troubled with the same trouble they (the Jews) had brought against those very Thessalonians of that day AT HIS APPEARING! I implore you, shilohsfoal, to look again at the context. Whether it was John of Gischala or some other person, the identity of the man of sin is to be found in that first-century pre-A. D. 70 generation!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Matthew24:34
You want me to give you an explanation for the 144,000, the two witnesses

Actually yes; I would!

You said the 144,000 represent the tribes. The tribes how? All people within all tribes? Revelation 7:5-8 indicates that when the sealing of the 144,000 occurs, each tribe is larger than 12,000 people. For example, the Bible says, "Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand." Unlike the numberless multitude who will come out of the Great Tribulation, the 144,000 will be numbered. (Revelation 7:5-8, 9, 14). All of these specifications and conditions must be met concerning the 144,000:

** John calls the 144,000, "servants," "servants the prophets," and "servants of God" in the book of Revelation. (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 10:7, 19:2)

** The four angels do not hurt Earth until the 144,000 are sealed. (Revelation 7:3)

** The 144,000 will be the first to receive the seal of God. (Revelation 7:3) They will be presented to God as the firstfruits of the Great Tribulation. They will not be defiled with women and they will follow Jesus wherever He goes. (Revelation 14:4)

** The 144,000 will be honored above the rest of the redeemed. No one else will be able to sing their song. (Revelation 14:1, 3)

** No lie or falsehood will be found in the mouths of the 144,000. (Revelation 14:5)

** The 144,000 will wear the names of the Father and Son on their foreheads throughout eternity. (Revelation 14:1; Revelation 22:3, 4)

** The 144,000 will be descended from Israel, descendants of Abraham. (Revelation 7:5-8)

Explanation?

And the Two Witnesses? Who? When? How?

A coherent explanation of the "Thousand Year" period (Millennium) would be helpful as well (minus the cattle). Are you saying we are in that period right now? And if so, since when? Did it begin in 70 AD, or when Jesus paid the price and defeated death (Hebrews 2:14)?

 

[Shilohsfoal]

"Matthew24:34"
Once the high priest, Ananus, was removed, the "man of sin," John of Gischala, was revealed. Paul and those very Thessalonians KNEW the restrainer! The man of sin then deceived those who perished in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans by convincing them they could emerge victorious. God sent them "strong delusion," they believed "the lie," and perished!

2thes 2;8
And then shall that wicked be revealed,whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth,and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.


So what you saying the Romans putting John of Giscala in prison is the same thing as Jesus destroying him with the brightness of his coming?Repeat after me,The Romans is not Jesus.The Romans is not Jesus.One more time.The Romans is not Jesus.


John of Giscala
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
John of Giscala (Yohanan me-Gush Halav) (Hebrew: יוחנן מגוש חלב‎) or Johannes ben Levi (birth date unknown; death date after 70), was a leader of the Jewish revolt against the Romans in the First Jewish-Roman War.

The Romans attacked Gush Halav (modern Jish), John's home town in the Upper Galilee and burned it to the ground. John helped to rebuild the city, hereby gaining the support of the people of the town. He used these people and about 500 fugitives to organize a large resistance against the Romans. Altogether their numbers reached about 5,000. When he asked Josephus if he could attack the emperor's grain store Josephus, at that time the governor of Galilee, refused. John took the grain store anyway and then built walls around Giscala. This sparked Josephus's long-term hatred of John.[citation needed] This also started the Northern part of the First Jewish-Roman War.[citation needed] After John's revolt in the North was put down by Vespasian, John fled to Jerusalem. After Jerusalem was taken, John was taken to Rome. According to Josephus he was sentenced to life in prison.[citation needed]

Shilohsfoal: Is it not God's standard pattern to exact His punishment upon nations and peoples through the instrumentality of other nations and peoples? Did He not clearly do so when He brought the Babylonians against Israel? Was it not so when He punished Edom and Egypt (see Isaiah 13 and 34)?
The Romans were clearly used of God to bring judgment against that first-century, pre-A. D. 70 generation of Jews guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). They were Jesus' instruments! They acted on Jesus' behalf according to His will!

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

Ok Now I understand why the christians were killed and imprisoned by the Romans.
Now I understand why saint John was imprisoned.
According to you the Romans were acting on Jesus's behalf.

 

[Vic C.]

Of course, carrying out God's will. Hey, even pharaoh carried out the will of God. Satan will bow to the will of God too! ;)

 

[n2thelight]

Once the high priest, Ananus, was removed, the "man of sin," John of Gischala, was revealed. Paul and those very Thessalonians KNEW the restrainer! The man of sin then deceived those who perished in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans by convincing them they could emerge victorious. God sent them "strong delusion," they believed "the lie," and perished!

There is no way in the world that this is true.The man of sin is non other than satan himself,also known as the son of perdition,among other's

The lie is satan pretending to be Christ

You must understand that satan goes by many many of different names, but it is the selfsame one entity. His different names merely indicate his different roles in the plan of God. Yes, satan is fulfilling the negative part of God's plan, God is, was, and always will be in total control.

In {Rev 20:2} the Holy Spirit has identified four of satan's names as being the same one entity, they are there given as: "the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan." {Rev 20:2}.

But satan has so many more names. In {Rev 13:11} he is called the " beast" (the second beast of Rev 13 - this is the antichrist). In {Isaiah 14:12} he is called "lucifer". In {Ezekiel 28:12} he is called "king of Tyrus".

In the Garden of Eden he was called the "serpent" {Gen 3:1}, in {Rev 12:3} he is called "the great red dragon". In {Eph 2:2} he is called "the prince of the power of the air". In {2nd Thes 2:3} he is called both "man of sin" and "son of perdition". In the book of Daniel he has at least four different names (The "prince that shall come", ...), I really could on quite a while with this list, but I think that you get the idea.

Do you remember the Scripture in the book of Revelation, the verse about about the eight kings who are all of one? Well that is speaking of satan and his many roles.

Cast out of your mind all that hooey about these being the Persian Empire, the Roman Empire... It is satan's roles through the history of God's good creation:

Rev 17:9-11
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. (KJV)

You notice one of satan's names given in the last couple of words above "and goeth into perdition", you remember who the son of perdition is:

II Th 2:3
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition (KJV)

And who is the one that perishes? Let's 'tune-in' as God condemns satan (king of tyrus) to perish completely from within (condemned but not yet executed):

Ezek 28:12-19
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty......(skip to verse 18)......
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [perished - gone] (KJV)

Ok, now we see in {Rev 19:20} that satan's role as the antichrist is cast into the Lake of Fire, true, but not satan himself. For from this verse forward satan will not be able to play the role of false christ antichrist, because of among other reasons, there is no more flesh after the Second Advent, which is when this verse transpires. The beast is the one-world luciferian system of {Rev 13:1-3}, the false prophet is the second beast of that chapter {Rev 13:11} and he is satan in the role of antichrist.

Rev 19:20
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (KJV)

Then in {Rev 20:1-3} we see that satan and several of his roles are incarcerated in the pit for a thousand years:

Rev 20:1-3
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (KJV)

Then after the thousand years (the Millennium) satan shall be loosed {Rev 20:7} and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire totally, all his roles, gone forever.

Rev 20:7-10
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (KJV)

If you are having a problem with the whole 'roles thing', look at Jesus Christ, He has many roles and many different names but He is the same one entity. It is the same thing with satan. For every positive in God's Word there is a negative. Jesus is positive, satan is negative.

 

[Osgiliath]

:amen onelove

Great post!

You touched on a very important point. The meaning of Revelation 19:20 is quite obvious when understanding ALL of the Scriptures on the whole. The antichrist (Lucifer) is allowed to physically appear on Earth during the fifth & sixth trumpets. At that time he will be given a visible body for the purpose of deceiving mankind. (Revelation 17:8; 9:1-11) This body (used to deceive) will be taken away from him at the Second Coming and destroyed in the lake of fire. This forces Lucifer back into the Abyss (from whence he came) and he remains in this state, "chained" for 1,000 years. The abilities or 'roles' Lucifer is granted such as the beast (global political/religious system) and the false prophet (Lucifer's appearance as a man - his 'sheep's clothing' as it were), so he could deceive the world are cast into the Lake of Fire, and Lucifer is fully exposed for who he is, with no "human cloak" (false prophet) to hide his true identity, and no global political/religious kingdom (the Beast in Rev. 13) to institute his deceptive policies - and he is chained for 1,000 years. That's why everyone will be astonished and say:

Isaiah 14:16 "They that see thee (Lucifer) shall gaze at thee, they shall wonder at thee, saying, Is this THE MAN that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms…?"

 

[Joe67]

Isa 25:7
7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering that covereth all peoples, and the veil that is spread over all nations.
ASV

Joe

 

[Matthew24:34]

Ok Now I understand why the christians were killed and imprisoned by the Romans.
Now I understand why saint John was imprisoned.
According to you the Romans were acting on Jesus's behalf.

Shilohsfoal: Exactly! Did not God bring the Babylonians and the Assyrians against Israel and Judah to punish them? Were not Joseph's descendants enslaved by the Egyptians and abused by the Egyptians to serve the purposes of God? Even Joseph's own brothers were used of God to fulfill His purposes. Joseph came to realize that although they intended their abuse of him for evil, God intended it for good.
God had sent Joseph before them to preserve life--"it was not YOU who sent me here, but God (Gen. 45:5ff).

The same is true of the persecutions and the tribulations brought against those first-century saints. They and we were promised trouble and persecution if we will follow Christ. Certainly God is in control of both the promise and the enactment! If we believe in a sovereign God, we must believe that all things are orchestrated by Him. Again, God used the Roman armies to punish that generation of Jews. Also, when you consider the OT accounts, those nations who came against His people were not without fault. Although their wicked inclinations were used by God to perform His will, they were held accountable for those wicked inclinations and actions!

This issue ultimately centers on the nature of God and how He deals in the affairs of men. Is God at the mercy of what men will do in order for Him to perform His will? OR does God's will determine the actions of men? This question has existed since the beginning of time. Paul addressed it in Romans 9. Some are created as vessels of wrath; others are created as vessels of mercy. The potter has power over the clay! Paul asked--"What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath PREPARED for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had PREPARED beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom. 9:22ff). What did God say of Pharaoh? "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth" (Rom. 9:17, cf. Ex. 9:16).

The same is true of the Romans. They were raised up to destroy that wicked generation of Jews who had finally crossed the line and had filled up the measure of God's wrath against them. Christians, who were promised persecution if they followed Christ, were persecuted by those very ones whom God had raised up and especially by the those wicked Jews. The heart of man rebels against such notions, but the Scriptures are clear!

In Christ, Preterist

 

[Matthew24:34]

onelove and osgiliath: Do you both not see that you are simply grabbing verses from here and there out of context and then putting them together as though they are all speaking about the same thing. This is horrible heremeutics and you need to stop it! If you are not to bother studying the verses you post in their context, I will not respond to them! Use only those verses that you have thoroughly investigated!

Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Mathew.You make the Romans out to be Jesus so I wouldnt say anything about what other people say if I were you.The scripture plainly states Jesus shall destroy the son of Perdition.You say the Romans putting John of Gischala in prison means thats how Jesus destroyed him with his appearing .


Its simple,John of Gischala wasnt destroyed in 70 ad.

 

[n2thelight]

onelove and osgiliath: Do you both not see that you are simply grabbing verses from here and there out of context and then putting them together as though they are all speaking about the same thing. This is horrible heremeutics and you need to stop it! If you are not to bother studying the verses you post in their context, I will not respond to them! Use only those verses that you have thoroughly investigated!

Matthew24:34

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Don't mean no harm or disrespect but you don't have a clue but just out of curiosity,which part of my post was out of context?