The man of sin

[Osgiliath]

Matthew24:34 wrote
onelove and osgiliath: Do you both not see that you are simply grabbing verses from here and there out of context and then putting them together as though they are all speaking about the same thing. This is horrible heremeutics and you need to stop it! If you are not to bother studying the verses you post in their context, I will not respond to them! Use only those verses that you have thoroughly investigated!

Matthew, 90% of my posts are nothing BUT Scripture, line by line, with subject and object in proper context (most of the time chronological) etc. All I see from you is monologue after monologue of your own personal interpretations. Frankly, as a dedicated Bible scholar, your view is so ridiculously unbiblical it hurts; and I have already posted half of the entire Bible to demonstrate that. My patience has run out in dealing with this nonsense, especially since you refuse to address anyone's post using Scripture. Who should I (or anyone) believe; the Word of God, or someone just yackin' away, flapping his gums about his own thing

? You haven’t addressed ANY of the pages and pages of pure, unmodified Scripture I've posted. I don't care about anyone's opinion when it comes to the fate of my eternal soul. If you ever care to post something that's worth a dime, try using Scripture, and step aside!

Here's a verse that you preterists love to use:

2 Peter 3:3-7 “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.â€Â

In my opinion Matt, you preterists are the scoffers of the end times. You not only say, "Where is this coming", you deny that the coming will ever happen. Of course there are scoffers that are not Christian, but most people outside the church pay little attention to the timing (or coming) of Christ. The real scoffers are you preterists within the Church of this generation. You are Christians in the church who know the Bible, but reinterpret it in a way that "deliberately forgets" certain fundamental truths of Scripture, just as Peter tells us. As Peter said above, the scoffers of this generation deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth is a term that’s defined in Genesis 1:1, and that the meaning of that term should remain consistent. You're trying to tell me that the old heavens and earth is the Old Covenant (shadows, which you still haven't addressed in the other thread), and that the new heavens and new earth are the New Covenant? Pul-leeze!!! You deliberately forget that when God gave the word for the destruction of his creation in Noah’s day, that this exact same word will destroy the creation - as defined in Genesis 1:1 - by fire (the present heavens and earth - NOT the Old Covenant or the Temple in 70 AD). In a nutshell, and according to God's Word; you’re a scoffer, and a false teacher, and I don’t have any regrets telling you that anymore.

"........By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

 

[Matthew24:34]

Mathew.You make the Romans out to be Jesus so I wouldnt say anything about what other people say if I were you.The scripture plainly states Jesus shall destroy the son of Perdition.You say the Romans putting John of Gischala in prison means thats how Jesus destroyed him with his appearing .


Its simple,John of Gischala wasnt destroyed in 70 ad.

Greetings Shilohsfoal: I wasn't saying anything about what other people say--I was making a criticism of posting a bunch of verses out of context as though the poster is expecting his readers to check out everyone of them. What I said to them, I say to myself. If we will not take the time to study verses in their context before we throw them into a post, we shouldn't use them. It is easy to make the Scriptures say what we want them to say or what we think they say on the surface by misusing them. For example, I can "prove" to you that we should all go hang ourselves!

Matthew 27:5 "Judas . . . went and hanged himself."
Luke 10:37 "Jesus said . . . 'Go and do likewise'."

Yes, this is extreme and obviously ridiculous, but it does prove a point. We (myself included) must be careful about how we combine verses taken out of context! Do you seriously believe that people who fill their posts with numerous Bible verses have actually taken the time to study them in their contexts before they use them? I doubt it. I have found that most people who do that have simply assumed that the verses they use are all talking about the same thing. I was merely pointing out that we must be careful to not make assumptions when we find similar wording or phrasing in different passages. I have also found that many posters simply find writings by others in which certain "proof texts" are used and then, without checking out whether the writer has actually used them properly, they copy and paste them into their own posts! This is a dangerous and reckless way to handle the Scriptures. Again, what I say to others, I say to myself--if we will not first investigate the entire context of verses we want to use to support our beliefs, we should not use them!

Shilohsfoal, do you really attempt to understand what I am saying? Did I not go into great detail concerning how God characteristically exacts His judgment upon nations and peoples? Did I not present strong arguments showing the timing of Christ's coming? Did I not point out that Paul wrote to those very Thessalonians of His day and instructed them that THEY were personally and in their lifetime going to be vindicated AT HIS APPEARING and at that same appearing THEIR enemies were to be troubled with the same trouble they had meted out to them (LOOK AT 2 Thessalonians 1!!!--what does it plainly say, Shilohsfoal?)? His brightness is His glory and His coming in glory is plainly dated in the time of the "this generation" of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21! It is the same glory with which He was to come and which some of those standing right there with Him were going to live to see (Mat. 16:27, 28)!

Nothing false and nothing evil can remain in the presence of that glory. The power and influence of that wicked John WAS destroyed when the Romans (used of God to fulfill His judgment) destroyed the city and the Temple. Many assume that his being "consumed" by the breath of the Lord's mouth and "destroyed" by His the brightness of His coming necessitates his death--some horrible death. But that is not what the passage says! And again, look at the context of 2 Thessalonians. Those very Thessalonians knew who or what restrained the man of sin. The restrainer and the man of sin are contemporaneous. If the Thessalonians knew the one (and they did), THEY personally knew the other when he was revealed in THEIR lifetime! THAT IS THE CONTEXT!

Shilohsfoal, notice how David expressed his deliverance by God from the powers of his enemies and "from the hand of Saul." In 2 Samuel 22:3ff, David described in poetic form this deliverance. He begins with "The Lord is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer." When David cried out to God for help, David describes that deliverance using figurative language and metaphors:

"Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken . . . smoke went up from His nostrils and devouring fire from His mouth; coals were kindled by it. He bowed the heavens also, and came down with darkness under His feet. He rode upon a cherub, and FLEW; And He was seen upon the wings of the wind. He made darkness canopies around Him, dark waters and thick clouds of the skies. From the brightness before Him coals of fire were kindled. The Lord thundered from heaven . . . . The foundations of the world were uncovered at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of the breath of His nostrils. Did these things literally and physically take place, Shilohsfoal? Did smoke literally go up from God's nostrils and did literal fire come out of His mouth? These are figurative descriptions of His power and judgment! David's enemies and Saul in particular were not directly destroyed by God, but they were judged nonetheless! If you are interested, you can find this same use of God's "breath" in the writings of Job. This is how we are to understand the "consuming" and "destruction" of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians!

John of Gischala WAS "destroyed" at the "brightness of His coming" and by the "breath of His mouth" in A. D. 70! I don't have a .

Matthew24:34

 

[Matthew24:34]

Matthew24:34 wrote
onelove and osgiliath: Do you both not see that you are simply grabbing verses from here and there out of context and then putting them together as though they are all speaking about the same thing. This is horrible heremeutics and you need to stop it! If you are not to bother studying the verses you post in their context, I will not respond to them! Use only those verses that you have thoroughly investigated!

Matthew, 90% of my posts are nothing BUT Scripture, line by line, with subject and object in proper context (most of the time chronological) etc. All I see from you is monologue after monologue of your own personal interpretations. Frankly, as a dedicated Bible scholar, your view is so ridiculously unbiblical it hurts; and I have already posted half of the entire Bible to demonstrate that. My patience has run out in dealing with this nonsense, especially since you refuse to address anyone's post using Scripture. Who should I (or anyone) believe; the Word of God, or someone just yackin' away, flapping his gums about his own thing

? You haven’t addressed ANY of the pages and pages of pure, unmodified Scripture I've posted. I don't care about anyone's opinion when it comes to the fate of my eternal soul. If you ever care to post something that's worth a dime, try using Scripture, and step aside!

Here's a verse that you preterists love to use:

2 Peter 3:3-7 “First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.â€Â

In my opinion Matt, you preterists are the scoffers of the end times. You not only say, "Where is this coming", you deny that the coming will ever happen. Of course there are scoffers that are not Christian, but most people outside the church pay little attention to the timing (or coming) of Christ. The real scoffers are you preterists within the Church of this generation. You are Christians in the church who know the Bible, but reinterpret it in a way that "deliberately forgets" certain fundamental truths of Scripture, just as Peter tells us. As Peter said above, the scoffers of this generation deliberately forget that the heavens and the earth is a term that’s defined in Genesis 1:1, and that the meaning of that term should remain consistent. You're trying to tell me that the old heavens and earth is the Old Covenant (shadows, which you still haven't addressed in the other thread), and that the new heavens and new earth are the New Covenant? Pul-leeze!!! You deliberately forget that when God gave the word for the destruction of his creation in Noah’s day, that this exact same word will destroy the creation - as defined in Genesis 1:1 - by fire (the present heavens and earth - NOT the Old Covenant or the Temple in 70 AD). In a nutshell, and according to God's Word; you’re a scoffer, and a false teacher, and I don’t have any regrets telling you that anymore.

"........By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men."

That was my point, Osgiliath--that you use Scripture without explanation of how the context of that Scripture supports your views. My caution to you was directed at myself as well. I am sorry that you took it so personally. Every verse used should be used with an explanation of the context.

I cannot believe that you think I do not use Scripture. Perhaps it is because your understanding of using Scripture involves throwing a multitude of verses grabbed from here and there at someone without explanation. I do not do that! So from your definition of using Scripture, I guess I am guilty! I use only those Scriptures I have personally studied in their contexts to try to avoid as much as possible taking things out of context and misusing God's Word for my own purposes. Do you read my posts?

Osgiliath, I am sorry that you feel you must be insulting and rude in your posts to me. You have completely mischaracterized me and falsely accused me. Unless and until you can be civil, I do not wish to dialogue with you. Also, be careful of what you accuse others lest you come to find yourself guilty! God will judge whether I am a "scoffer" or a false teacher. I stand before Him with a clear conscience, fully determined to rightly divide the word of truth no matter what it might do to ANY of my preconceived ideas and presuppositions.

Sincerely, Matthew24:34

 

[Shilohsfoal]

Mathew.You make the Romans out to be Jesus so I wouldnt say anything about what other people say if I were you.The scripture plainly states Jesus shall destroy the son of Perdition.You say the Romans putting John of Gischala in prison means thats how Jesus destroyed him with his appearing .


Its simple,John of Gischala wasnt destroyed in 70 ad.

John of Gischala WAS "destroyed" at the "brightness of His coming" and by the "breath of His mouth" in A. D. 70! I don't have a .

Matthew24:34

No he wasnt destroyed.The Romans put him in prison according to your sorces.(Josephus)

 

[Osgiliath]

Matthew24:34
Osgiliath, I am sorry that you feel you must be insulting and rude in your posts to me. You have completely mischaracterized me and falsely accused me. Unless and until you can be civil, I do not wish to dialogue with you. Also, be careful of what you accuse others lest you come to find yourself guilty! God will judge whether I am a "scoffer" or a false teacher. I stand before Him with a clear conscience, fully determined to rightly divide the word of truth no matter what it might do to ANY of my preconceived ideas and presuppositions.

Blah, blah, blah. Get a backbone! The Tribulation isn't far off, and you're going to need one if you think "the facts" that I'm stating are so offensive. Also, I’m really getting tired of your exaggerated allegations, and you making me out to be some kind of uncivilized creep. We are having a Bible discussion that involves a debate, and I have been totally honest and straightforward with you from day one. If a forthright disagreement constitutes un-Christlike behavior in your eyes, then maybe you should reserve conversation to only those who agree with you. What; you don't believe your continual condescending little jabs are offensive simply because they’re cloaked in subtlety? Take the log out of your own eye before you cast judgment! If you want to talk strictly Bible I’ll be glad to, but your holier-than-thou vilification of my character is getting on my nerves. As I see it, your ideas are unbiblical and false, and according to the Scriptures, you are a scoffer. That is by Biblical definition, not mine! So deal with it, or prove me wrong Biblically. If not, accuse the Word of God of being un-Christlike, not me!

After your last post, all I can do is follow Shilohsfoal's lead and say:

 

[Vic C.]

Ok people, step back, take a deep breath and get back to acting civil toward each other.

 

[Sinthesis]

This thread has degenerated into something shameful. :verysad

As to the original post; The 'Man of Sin' of 2 Thessalonians is Jewish Zealotry personified. Could he be represented by John of Gischala in particular? Perhaps, but what about Eleazar ben Simon and Simon bar Gioras? No, this is a generalized personification.

Shilohsfoal is mistaken in equating this 'person' with those mentioned in Daniel 11. The 'king' of Daniel 11:36 is the Roman Republic personified in general. The 'king' of Daniel 11:45 is the Roman Republic personified by Gaius Julius Caesar in particular.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by Sinthesis
This thread has degenerated into something shameful.

As to the original post; The 'Man of Sin' of 2 Thessalonians is Jewish Zealotry personified. Could he be represented by John of Gischala in particular? Perhaps, but what about Eleazar ben Simon and Simon bar Gioras? No, this is a generalized personification.

Shilohsfoal is mistaken in equating this 'person' with those mentioned in Daniel 11. The 'king' of Daniel 11:36 is the Roman Republic personified in general. The 'king' of Daniel 11:45 is the Roman Republic personified by Gaius Julius Caesar in particular.

Originally posted by the Word of God

2 Peter 3:3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4 They will say, Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives
12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat.
13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

Any questions?

 

[Matthew24:34]

Matthew24:34
Osgiliath, I am sorry that you feel you must be insulting and rude in your posts to me. You have completely mischaracterized me and falsely accused me. Unless and until you can be civil, I do not wish to dialogue with you. Also, be careful of what you accuse others lest you come to find yourself guilty! God will judge whether I am a "scoffer" or a false teacher. I stand before Him with a clear conscience, fully determined to rightly divide the word of truth no matter what it might do to ANY of my preconceived ideas and presuppositions.

Blah, blah, blah. Get a backbone! The Tribulation isn't far off, and you're going to need one if you think "the facts" that I'm stating are so offensive. Also, I’m really getting tired of your exaggerated allegations, and you making me out to be some kind of uncivilized creep. We are having a Bible discussion that involves a debate, and I have been totally honest and straightforward with you from day one. If a forthright disagreement constitutes un-Christlike behavior in your eyes, then maybe you should reserve conversation to only those who agree with you. What; you don't believe your continual condescending little jabs are offensive simply because they’re cloaked in subtlety? Take the log out of your own eye before you cast judgment! If you want to talk strictly Bible I’ll be glad to, but your holier-than-thou vilification of my character is getting on my nerves. As I see it, your ideas are unbiblical and false, and according to the Scriptures, you are a scoffer. That is by Biblical definition, not mine! So deal with it, or prove me wrong Biblically. If not, accuse the Word of God of being un-Christlike, not me!

After your last post, all I can do is follow Shilohsfoal's lead and say:

[quote:3hf2tyi2]

[/quote:3hf2tyi2]

I rest my case!

 

[Matthew24:34]

My fellow students of the Word: Let's look at the CONTEXT of 2 Thessalonians. I know exactly where many of you are coming from. For over twenty years as a dispensationalist I approached the Scriptures with the preconceived ideas and presuppositions I had been taught. When I finally allowed the Scriptures to say what they say apart from those presuppositions and preconceptions, I began to understand. I know that even my saying this will make most of you defensive. I do not mean to offend and I do not mean to present myself as "holier-than-thou" or of superior intellect and spiritual insight. We all have the same Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, but we must use proper hermeneutical and exegetical principles to help us arrive at that truth.

One thing that was sorely missing in my life as a Bible student was diligence in ascertaining the context and audience relevance of passages before I drew my conclusions. In 2 Thessalonians 1 is found much enlightenment for understanding 2 Thessalonians 2. What is the historical setting of Paul's words? To whom was he first of all writing? Why was he writing what he was writing? What did his words mean first of all to those to whom he directly wrote? Such questions must be asked; such questions must be answered.

Can it be disputed that Paul was writing an actual letter to those first-century Thessalonians? I know of no one who has a problem with that. So let's get into their minds and into their lives so that we can understanding the significance of Paul's words to THEM!

Paul is thankful to God for their growing faith and their abounding love for one another! These things are so outwardly apparent that Paul boasts about the Thessalonians to other churches. These very Thessalonians are at that very time suffering great persecutions and tribulations. Their faith and patience in the midst of those trials is a sign of their worthiness of the kingdom of God.

Then follows the clear key that unlocks the timing of Christ's appearing. God was going to repay those very ones of that day who were troubling those very Thessalonians. When? At Christ's appearing! God was going to give those Thessalonians rest and repay those of their day who troubled THEM when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven. Also present with Him at this revealing were His mighty angels. Sound familiar? Matthew 24:29 says that "all the tribes of the land" were to mourn at His coming--a coming that is associated with clouds and His angels and glory! That coming was to occur in THAT generation in which Jesus, His disciples, and those apostate Jews lived (see also Matthew 23). This is the time of the "woes" to come against that generation of Jews for troubling THOSE Thessalonians and other saints of that day!

Paul says when He comes in "THAT day" He would be "glorified in His saints." That day is that same time of His being "revealed from heaven with His mighty angels"--the time when He was to give rest to His saints and bring vengeance upon those who persecuted them because they did not know Him! The events of A. D. 70 (e.g. the destruction of the city and the Temple) are all tied in with this coming in vengeance upon those "guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). Those very Jews to whom Jesus said, "Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate" are those who troubled the Thessalonians and the other saints of that time! They would be troubled with the very same trouble they had brought against the saints, and they would mourn over Him. "ALL these things shall come upon THIS generation" (Mat. 23).

After making the nature and timing of that coming clear--in the lifetime of those very Thessalonians--Paul elaborates. "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ [the very coming he has just described as being in their lifetime] and OUR gathering together to Him, we ask YOU, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled." Paul has established that His coming to give them rest and punish their persecutors was to come in their lifetime. Now he further describes it as their gathering together to Him! Again, to draw a parallel to Matthew 24, the angels are depicted as gathering "His elect from the four winds" in THAT very generation (24:34). In 1 Thessalonians 4, Paul had taught those same Thessalonians that HE and THEY personally would be "caught together" with the dead in Christ and would meet the Lord in the air! In both Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 4 there is the attendant glory, and angels, and trumpet sound. These things are also found in the Revelation whose timing is clearly seen in the fact that John was shown those things which were in his day to SHORTLY take place; the time for fulfillment was then NEAR (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10).

That Paul is addressing those very Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 1 and 2 cannot be logically disputed. Those Thessalonians of Paul's day were not to be deceived. The Lord had not yet come as some were saying. But why could they have possibly thought that the Lord had already come IF He was to come with all the visible-to-all fanfare that is commonly taught today? Paul did not say to them--How could you be so ignorant? When did you actually see Christ coming in the clouds? When was the sun darkened? When did the moon not give its light and the stars fall from heaven? Is that not what people accuse preterists of today? But Paul did not accuse them of misunderstanding the nature of the Lord's coming--He only sought to re-establish in their minds the proper TIMING of that coming.

Who are these deceivers? They are the same scoffers Peter described in 2 Peter 3--scoffers who came in "THESE last days" (Heb. 1). The Thessalonians were not to be troubled by such nonsense. Certain things had to take place before "that Day." It was right for them to believe that the Lord was coming in their lifetime, BUT there had to first be a "falling away" and the revelation of the "man of sin." Paul had previously told them these things when he was still with them. HE and THEY knew who restrained that "man of sin." Both the restrainer and the "man of sin" were of that generation! The "mystery of lawlessness" was already in their day at work!

The audience relevance and the historical setting of 2 Thessalonians cannot and must not be overlooked. I suspect that many, in spite of the clear first-century setting and fulfillment of these passages and because they have been taught to see the fulfillment of all NT prophecy as yet unaccomplished, will resist this. They have been taught a certain nature of Christ's return and they read that nature into every eschatological passage. Yet, we can clearly see that the Thessalonians had no such modern-day concept of the Lord's return. Had they had such an understanding, there is no way they could have been convinced by anyone that they had somehow missed it! And again, Paul corrected their understanding of the timing of His return and not their understanding of the nature of His coming!

What does it hurt for us to step back occasionally from what we believe, empty our minds of all of our presuppositions, look afresh at a passage as though we have never seen it before, and ask: Have I missed something? Does this passage really say what I have thought it says?

I do not expect that many here will change their minds. What I am requesting is that we ALL, myself included, be ever careful that we look at every passage we read as though we have never read it before. It is so easy to read uncritically and presumptuously something with which we are very familiar. For years I had read Genesis 1 as though there was nothing new to be found there. Until one day I was struck with the unfathomable depth of the verse "And He made the stars also!" Such a short statement that is so easily read over quickly and shallowly. But when I took the time to contemplate the vastness and wonder of the universes, I was filled with a fresh and overwhelming awe of God! "And He made the stars also!"--as though there was absolutely nothing to it--and there wasn't--for God!

There are many passages in the Scriptures that have become thoroughly solidified in my mind, and I have little doubt that I will ever be persuaded to change my assessment of them. But there are many others that I continually seek to clarify--passages of which I am open to correction IF and only IF someone can prove to me that I am somehow taking things out of context, misunderstanding the audience relevance, or rigidly giving something a "preterist" twist.

Disagree with me if you must. That's okay. But know this--my heart's desire is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and to accept that Truth once it is discovered, regardless of how precious or long-held my previous beliefs have been and regardless of how much opposition I might encounter and how many friends I might lose along the way! Nothing is worth grasping unto and clinging to if it is not true!

Sincerely and in Christ, Matthew24:34