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Bible Study The Me I See Is The Me I'll Be.

Tenchi

Member
The day was like every other, for Nelson. He’d had a few miserable hours of sleep, buried in as many scraps of clothing, blankets and cardboard as he could assemble around himself. He’d been bitterly cold, anyway, and had half expected – half hoped, actually - to freeze to death in his sleep. But the noise of passing vehicles and the grey light of a new winter’s day had roused him from his fitful, shivering doze, a terrible ache in his feet and legs forcing him to rise and shamble about in a slow circle ‘til feeling and warmth partially returned to them. He’d survived the night to endure another useless day.

With dull eyes, he scanned the railyard across the street, wondering if the other homeless folk he knew who had spent the night in various nooks and crannies all across the yard had survived, too. It didn’t matter to him, really; as far as he was concerned, those who died were the lucky ones. Pulling a couple of dirty, frost-encrusted blankets around him, he loaded the rest of his “insulation” into his stolen grocery cart and began the familiar march to the nearest street mission for breakfast, pushing and pulling the cart awkwardly through the snow.

By the time he was close enough to see the doors of the mission, the big, lighted sign above them glowing with a cross and the name of the mission in neon red, he was exhausted and on the verge of abandoning the cart. A couple dozen homeless men and women were milling around the mission, waiting for the doors to open. Many of them turned to watch his approach, hoping, Nelson knew, that he would give up his struggle with his cart. The moment he walked away from it, they’d swarm all over the cart, taking his much-needed items for themselves and leaving Nelson to forage all day for new protection against the deadly cold of night.

“Excuse me. Sir?”

Nelson continued wrestling his cart toward the mission, oblivious to the voice that had addressed him.

“Sir? Excuse me, please, but are you Nelson Butler?”

“Who wants to know?” Nelson replied, cursing hotly as he gave his cart a tired push. He didn’t look at the person speaking to him. What was the point of looking at anyone? They didn’t care about him and he didn’t care about them.

“Benjamin Saunders. I’m a lawyer with Goldberg, Simmons and Associates, a legal firm. Here’s my card.”

With a sigh, Nelson turned from his cart to face a young man clad in a knee-length, fur-trimmed parka and winter boots, holding out to him a shiny, gold-colored business card. Nelson stared angrily at the young man, his resentment growing as he noticed that the doors of the mission had opened and the waiting crowd of homeless people were filing in to enjoy the warmth and food that he was not. “Gimme some money,” he growled, thrusting out his hand.

“I’m sorry. What?” the lawyer said.

“Gimme twenty bucks,” Nelson repeated, taking a step toward the young man and aggressively thrusting out his hand a second time. Usually, this served to repel unwanted interactions with the “greys” – people who used Nelson to make themselves feel virtuous, caring not one whit about him and showing it by giving him dimes and nickels and then walking rapidly away, never asking his name, never asking him about his story. Nelson hated the greys but restrained himself from punching every one of them in the face because he desperately needed the pittance they gave him.

The lawyer laughed. “Sir, I’ve got a lot more than twenty bucks to give you!”

Uh oh. A Jesus nut, Nelson thought. “I don’t want salvation. I want breakfast.” Gripping the push bar of his cart, Nelson resumed his journey to the mission.

Stepping up beside Nelson as he shoved his way through the snow, the lawyer said, “Not salvation. Money. A very great deal of money. I’m here to tell you that you’ve inherited twenty million dollars!”

Focused entirely on reaching the doors of the mission, the young man’s words didn’t register with Nelson at all. Grunting and puffing, he continued forward with his cart, entirely captured by his immediate need of food and relief from the cold.

“Sir!” the lawyer cried, “Did you hear me? You’re rich! You’re a multi-millionaire!” Excited, the lawyer laid his gloved hand on Nelson’s shoulder, attempting to draw his attention.

Snarling, in a backhanded arc, Nelson swung his arm blindly at the bothersome stranger. “Get lost!” he shouted, adding a string of curses he hoped would drive off the yapping weirdo in the parka.

Violence always worked. Stopping in his tracks, the young man fell silent, watching as Nelson moved away.

As Nelson reached the doors of the mission, the young man called out, “Do you like being homeless, Nelson? Is it a good time, nearly freezing to death every night in a carboard box?”

Nelson stiffened at these words, their derisive tone jabbing painfully at him. Wheeling about, eyes wide with anger, Nelson shouted, “What did you say?” He began walking toward the lawyer, fists balled up, his posture communicating aggression and violence.

“You heard me,” the fellow in the parka replied. “Have I got your attention now?”

“Oh, you got it, all right. Stay right there and I’ll show you how much you got it!”

Lifting his hands in a placating gesture, the lawyer said, “Easy. Easy. I didn’t mean anything by what I said. You weren’t listening. I just wanted you to hear me.”

Nelson halted, not really as eager for a fight as he appeared, and blustered, “Well, I’m listening to you now. Talk!”

Stepping toward Nelson as he spoke, clouds of vapor punctuating his words, the lawyer said, “A distant, very wealthy relative of yours – a bachelor all his life - has died and you are the natural inheritor of his estate. It has taken us many weeks to track you down so we could inform you of your inheritance. Mr. Butler, you are a millionaire! The money sits in an account in your name in a bank only a few blocks away.” The young fellow grinned broadly, clearly pleased to be the bearer of such good news. “Will you accompany me to my office so we can process the paperwork necessary to relinquishing your inheritance to you?”

The kid definitely sounded like a lawyer. Nelson chuckled roughly, looking down at himself and said, “I’m a millionaire? Seriously? Look at me. Do I look like a millionaire to you?”

“Join me at my office and in two hours you can go out and buy the best clothes available in this city.”

“But I smell like an outhouse! I eat garbage out of dumpsters! I almost froze to death last night! I’m not a millionaire!”

A baffled expression settled on the face of the young lawyer. “But you are. I’ve just explained to you that you are really, truly a millionaire.”

Nelson laughed, “Look, if I don’t get into the mission quick, I’ll miss the meal! I gotta’ go.” He started toward the doors of the mission, shaking his head. “A millionaire!” he muttered, “Yeah, right.”

Stunned, Benjamin stood, wordlessly gazing after Nelson. The man’s refusal to accept the truth of his new financial status was irrational! Was the man insane? “Why won’t you believe me?” Benjamin shouted.

Standing now at the double-doors of the mission, his hand resting on the glass panel of one of them, Nelson looked at the young man in the fancy fur-lined parka and boots, and replied, “I only believe what I feel and see. I don’t feel like a millionaire, and I don’t live like a millionaire, and I don’t look like a millionaire. How can I be a millionaire, then?” Nelson shrugged. “Well, I’m not. Everything about me says I’m a homeless guy. That’s what I am. That’s my reality.”

“But I’m telling you the truth! You really are a millionaire!” Benjamin cried in exasperation. “Just come with me and I’ll show you!”

Nelson snorted. “I’m hungry and cold,” he said, pushing open the door. “I gotta' eat. Breakfast is real,” he sniffed at the odor of toast and coffee wafting through the air and smiled, “Not your promises of money I can’t touch, of an inheritance that doesn’t feel real to me.” Stepping into the warm, familiar confines of the mission, Nelson disappeared from view.

-------

Too often, in my experience as a long-time discipler of men, I have seen believers do as Nelson did in the story above. Though they possess in Jesus Christ an enormous spiritual inheritance (Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:4-7; Romans 6:1-18), they live as spiritual "homeless" people, spiritually starved, sick and weak, just "scraping by" spiritually as those "in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Instead of trusting what God says is true of them in His word, these "spiritual millionaires" go about trusting instead to what they feel and experience, defining who they are entirely on this basis. And it shows. "The me I see is the be" and so those who are ignorant of their spiritual identity in Jesus and neglect to live daily by faith in that identity live as they always have in, and by, the flesh and in all the corruption and sin such living always produces.

Brothers and sisters, don't be like Nelson.

Hebrews 4:1-3 (NASB)
1 Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
3 For we who have believed enter that rest...
 
It's sad that others would rather dwell in their misery when opportunity for a better life is set before them. :shrug
 
Too often, in my experience as a long-time discipler of men, I have seen believers do as Nelson did in the story above. Though they possess in Jesus Christ an enormous spiritual inheritance (Romans 8:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Ephesians 2:4-7; Romans 6:1-18), they live as spiritual "homeless" people, spiritually starved, sick and weak, just "scraping by" spiritually as those "in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17). Instead of trusting what God says is true of them in His word, these "spiritual millionaires" go about trusting instead to what they feel and experience, defining who they are entirely on this basis. And it shows. "The me I see is the be" and so those who are ignorant of their spiritual identity in Jesus

Hi Tenchi.

We spoke on this in another thread. My problem with identity theology and spiritual visualization is that some can be taught to envision themselves as something they are actually not, and become deluded, whereas if you encourage them to actually become what the scriptures command they should, they no longer have need to visualize anything anymore.

Out of curiosity, are you a subscriber to Faith Theology? I assumed based on some of your previous posts that you were maybe more the Baptist type.

God bless, and thanks for your answers in advance.
 
We spoke on this in another thread. My problem with identity theology and spiritual visualization is that some can be taught to envision themselves as something they are actually not, and become deluded, whereas if you encourage them to actually become what the scriptures command they should, they no longer have need to visualize anything anymore.

I'm not espousing "spiritual visualization" but the life of faith, enjoined of believers in God's word (2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Timothy 1:12, etc.)

2 Corinthians 5:17
1 Corinthians 1:30
Ephesians 1:3; 2:4-7
Romans 8:9-16
Colossians 3:1-3
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Romans 6:1-11
Galatians 2:20


And so on. All of these verses the believer must take on faith as true, "counting them so" (Romans 6:11) in order for them to be so, because they are so.

An OT parallel concerning the life of faith and the believer's spiritual inheritance in Christ is found in the story of the Israelites at the border of the Promised Land (Numbers 13-14). God had said to them that the land was theirs. But, the Israelites (save Caleb and Joshua) went with what they saw (many nations, giants, mighty cities), yielding to fear and doubt, and ended up dying in the wilderness outside of Canaan, never entering the land God had given to them. If they had believed God, counting on His promise, stepping into Canaan as the possessors of it that God had already made them, they would have enjoyed the "milk and honey" of the land. But adopting an "evil heart of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:8-12) they denied God's proclamation that Canaan was theirs, seeing themselves as "grasshoppers" rather than the divinely-ordained possessors of Canaan that they were.

Would it have been "spiritual visualization" for the Israelites to have believed God and gone into the Promised Land and possessed it? I don't think so. And it is no more "spiritual visualization" for the born-again, in-Christ person to "reckon it so" that they are all that God says they are in him.
 
If they had believed God,

Tenchi, God never told the Israelites that they would conquer the land if they merely visualized themselves doing so. He told them, "The LORD your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you. But the LORD your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed." He would continue to remind them throughout their history that it is "not by power nor by might, but by My Spirit, says the Lord."

This is why He reminded the Israelites, "You shall remember the LORD your God: for it is He that gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He sware unto your fathers, as it is this day." (Deuteronomy 8:18). Their power did not rest in themselves or visualizing themselves to be anything. Their power rested solely in Him, and His power to accomplish what He told them He would.
 
Tenchi, God never told the Israelites that they would conquer the land if they merely visualized themselves doing so.

??? "Visualized"? I said nothing about visualizing...

He told them, "The LORD your God will drive out those nations before you, little by little. You will not be allowed to eliminate them all at once, or the wild animals will multiply around you. But the LORD your God will deliver them over to you, throwing them into great confusion until they are destroyed." He would continue to remind them throughout their history that it is "not by power nor by might, but by My Spirit, says the Lord."

Yes, but the Israelites still had to believe God in all of this - which they didn't.

This is why He reminded the Israelites, "You shall remember the LORD your God: for it is He that gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He sware unto your fathers, as it is this day." (Deuteronomy 8:18). Their power did not rest in themselves or visualizing themselves to be anything.

Yes. I've never suggested otherwise, though you seem to want to misconstrue my words as saying so.

Again:

I'm not espousing "spiritual visualization" but the life of faith, enjoined of believers in God's word (2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Timothy 1:12, etc.)

2 Corinthians 5:17
1 Corinthians 1:30
Ephesians 1:3; 2:4-7
Romans 8:9-16
Colossians 3:1-3
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Romans 6:1-11
Galatians 2:20


And so on. All of these verses the believer must take on faith as true, "counting them so" (Romans 6:11) in order for them to be so, because they are so.
 
I'm not espousing "spiritual visualization" but the life of faith, enjoined of believers in God's word (2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Timothy 1:12, etc.)

2 Corinthians 5:17
1 Corinthians 1:30
Ephesians 1:3; 2:4-7
Romans 8:9-16
Colossians 3:1-3
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Romans 6:1-11
Galatians 2:20


And so on. All of these verses the believer must take on faith as true, "counting them so" (Romans 6:11) in order for them to be so, because they are so.

An OT parallel concerning the life of faith and the believer's spiritual inheritance in Christ is found in the story of the Israelites at the border of the Promised Land (Numbers 13-14). God had said to them that the land was theirs. But, the Israelites (save Caleb and Joshua) went with what they saw (many nations, giants, mighty cities), yielding to fear and doubt, and ended up dying in the wilderness outside of Canaan, never entering the land God had given to them. If they had believed God, counting on His promise, stepping into Canaan as the possessors of it that God had already made them, they would have enjoyed the "milk and honey" of the land. But adopting an "evil heart of unbelief" (Hebrews 3:8-12) they denied God's proclamation that Canaan was theirs, seeing themselves as "grasshoppers" rather than the divinely-ordained possessors of Canaan that they were.

Would it have been "spiritual visualization" for the Israelites to have believed God and gone into the Promised Land and possessed it? I don't think so. And it is no more "spiritual visualization" for the born-again, in-Christ person to "reckon it so" that they are all that God says they are in him.
Are not all things of God Spiritual as we by faith are to set our minds on things from above and not earthly things as written in Colossians 3:1-4.

Those who wandered in the desert for 40 years following Moses being set free from their captures and taking their journey to the promised land, which should have only taken forty days, but their belly aching and stubbornness cause many to fall short of their faith in God and "the me I see is the me that I will be" because so many are set in their fleshly ways not looking for the land of milk and honey that is set before them.

All it takes is a mustard seed of faith planted and then watering it with the word of God to grow into a great faith and belief in the promises of God.

The me I see (back in the day) is not the me I will be, as the me that I saw years ago is definitely not the me I am today.
 
The title of this thread is, "The me I see is the me I'll be," Lol.

Not visualize, as you've asserted. "See" in the sense in which I'm using it doesn't indicate visualizing anything but rather knowing and believing what God has said and then "reckoning it so" (Romans 6:11) in daily living.

2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.


What Paul wrote here is no more or less than what I've urged in this thread.

Again:

I'm not espousing "spiritual visualization" but the life of faith, enjoined of believers in God's word (2 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 11:6; Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; 2 Timothy 1:12, etc.)

2 Corinthians 5:17
1 Corinthians 1:30
Ephesians 1:3; 2:4-7
Romans 8:9-16
Colossians 3:1-3
1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Romans 6:1-11
Galatians 2:20


And so on. All of these verses the believer must take on faith as true, "counting them so" (Romans 6:11) in order for them to be so, because they are so.
 
Uh...no. Your saying so doesn't make it so, brother. Yikes.
The whole story is about visualization as this homeless man visualized him self to be homeless as the me he saw was his vision of what he will always be, even though he received an amazing gift that could have changed his life, but he rejected that gift.
 
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2 Timothy 1:12
12 ...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Speaking of the true gospel message, now committed to Timothy.
2 Corinthians 5:17

Speaking of a spiritual reality, not "believing" for anything.
1 Corinthians 1:30

Speaking of a spiritual reality. Christ became sanctification unto them when the Holy Spirit was poured out.

Both speaking of a spiritual reality. The Old Testament church had already ascended through the harrowing of Hades, and "we" was a reference to the church collective here.
Romans 8:9-16

Spiritual reality. Because of the outpouring, they were walking in the Spirit, not the flesh.
Colossians 3:1-3

A conceptualization based on the Ephesians passage. They were companion letters, and addressing the same thing.

These two are also conceptualizations, but once again based off of spiritual realities. To explain the latter three would take treating the entire passages, and I don't have the time or energy atm, but maybe I can later.

God bless,
- H
 
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The whole story is about visualization as this homeless man visualized him self to be homeless as the me he saw was his vision of what he will always be.

I'm concerned about equivocation of terms here. As I've explained, "see" in the sense in which I'm using it is not "to picture, or imagine, or work up an image of, myself in my minds' eye as x, y, or z and then, by force of will, make it come to pass." I mean by "see" simply to know, believe in, and act upon, what God says is true.

In the OP story, Nelson limited what he knew, believed and acted upon to his experience and his feelings about himself. He would not make room among these things for anything that did not conform to them. And so, he lived in manifestation of what he believed to be true about himself - even when it was false and cost him a life filled with the riches of his inheritance. Christians do the same everyday and wonder why their walk with God is so dry, and ritualistic and laborious, not the "abundant life" Christ said he would give to his own (John 10:10).
 
Speaking of the true gospel message, now committed to Timothy.

Which Paul believed.

Speaking of a spiritual reality, not "believing" for anything.

That Paul believed was true of himself and every other born-again believer, which is why he wrote the verse.

Speaking of a spiritual reality. Christ became sanctification unto them when the Holy Spirit was poured out.

Which Paul believed and therefore taught to the believers at Corinth.

Both speaking of a spiritual reality.

Which Paul believed and taught to the believers at Ephesus.

Spiritual reality. Because of the outpouring, they were walking in the Spirit, not the flesh.

A spiritual reality that the believers at Rome had to know, accept as true (believe) and live out in their daily, mundane condition.

Reality, and the same as in the Ephesians passage. They were companion letters, and addressing the same thing.

Spiritual truths to be believed and lived out.

These two are conceptualizations, but once again based off of spiritual realities. To explain would take treating the entire passages, and I don't have the time or energy atm, but maybe I can later.

No explanation needed. I understand the passages quite well.

Romans 6;1-11 is an eminently practical passage, as Paul indicated, and specifically verse 11 in which Paul enjoined his readers to trust in - "reckon," or "count on" - what he had explained was the case for them spiritually.
 
The "abundant " life may entail
An elder needing back surgery and praying to be put where he can tell others about Jesus ,pray for them .

He was in pain but also full of joy and peace .needs met not by his hands buy others able to bless him and he receives joyfully and thankfully .

He is also a widower .
 
Yes, but his believing didn't make it a reality. It was the other way around.

Well, yes and no, Hidden In Him.

The things God says are true of us as "new creatures in Christ" aren't true because we believe that they are; they are true and so we believe them. But we don't experience God's truth until we "see" - know and believe - and then act upon it, which is what both Paul and the Israelites at the borders of Canaan have illustrated.

No, you don't. You rarely do, Tenchi.

??? Someone needs a nap.

In any case, your saying so doesn't make it so. Nothing you've put forward thus far has done anything to diminish the point I was making in my OP. In fact, your pushback has only helped to clarify and thus strengthen it.
 
The "abundant " life may entail
An elder needing back surgery and praying to be put where he can tell others about Jesus ,pray for them .

He was in pain but also full of joy and peace .needs met not by his hands buy others able to bless him and he receives joyfully and thankfully .

He is also a widower .

I know very well what it is to be incapacitated by pain that doesn't go away and for which little can be done. It's very exhausting. But, as you say, God is Himself the "abundance" I possess as His child even in such circumstances. He was in my case, anyway - and in the case of the elderly person you've mentioned, too.
 
The things God says are true of us as "new creatures in Christ" aren't true because we believe that they are; they are true and so we believe them.
Here we agree.
But we don't experience God's truth until we "see" - know and believe

This is also acceptable.
and then act upon it, which is what both Paul and the Israelites at the borders of Canaan have illustrated.

At issue, however, is what specifically were they believing, and what specific belief were they acting upon. Did the Israelites conquer Canaan because they visualized themselves doing so, in keeping with the axiom "The me I see is the me I will be," or did they finally get it together, in spite of themselves, and start acting in obedience to the God they really needed to be fearing, and do what He said, whether they "believed" everything He was telling them yet or not?
In any case, you're saying so doesn't make it so. Nothing you've put forward thus far has done anything to diminish the point I was making in my OP. In fact, your pushback has only helped to clarify and thus strengthen it.

Maybe next time then.

God bless,
- H
 
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