The Messianic cult

[Maria222]

Question:

Do you think adherents of Judaism will attain salvation?
My response:
I hold the view that God demonstrates special loyalty to his chosen Jewish people, Israel, in various ways. However, those who persist in rejecting Jesus as their Messiah are no better off than non-Jews who do the same. In this case they will be judged by God as unbelievers too.
There exist numerous Messianic Jews, comprising a significant portion of Judaism's followers, who adhere to Jewish laws while also acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. These individuals are considered as heretics and cult followers because Christians are free from implementation of the Jewish laws (for example circumcision is forbidden for them and food dietary laws too).
Galatians 5: "Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace".
These groups of the messianic heretics are fallen away from grace snd they are not believers anymore!
As for others who do not share Christians beliefs and who do not live holy, based on Scripture, they will not gain entry into heaven. So, while we cannot fully grasp the extent of God's mercy, there is no guarantee that those Jews who reject Jesus will be accepted.
The natural follow-up question pertains to individuals who lived before Jesus, such as Abraham and David. I believe, and Scripture supports, that they are in a state of blessedness in paradise. Ultimately, it is our faith in God's promises, whether regarding future events like the Messiah's arrival (as was the case for Old Testament believers) or reflecting on past events like the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, that renders us acceptable to Him.
God accepts only holy Christians! 1 Cor. 15:2 and Col. 1:22,23 declare the true Gospel of grace and reveals that it has a conditional security for the believer attached to it! That was the original message, as taught by the Lord Himself and His Apostles.

IF YOU are not LIVING HOLY now, then YOU are not a Christian now, though you may have been one in the past. There are NO Christian liars, NO Christian drunks, NO Christian adulterers, NO Christian thieves (1 Cor. 6:9-11; Eph. 5:5-7; Rev. 21:8). NOW is the time to DEEPLY REPENT. God wants the backsliders back, but you must repent to return to salvation or to become a Christian.

 

[Who Me]

Paul answer this in Romans 3:28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

In short a Jew is only a Jew if they have accepted Jesus.

 

[Vinny37]

Question:

Do you think adherents of Judaism will attain salvation?

To your Q, I’d say "Some, Yes", on the basis that whether Animism, Atheism, Islam, or Judaism, all human beings begin as unbelievers without fear or favour—no special DNA. IMO globally accessible ultimate salvation has always been, and been incidental to whether we hear, let alone buy into, Christianity in mortal life.

BTW Sinai laws, including physical circumcision, predated [Jewish laws] (eg korban: Mk.7:11), since Sinai predated the Jewish kingdom and even the Israelite kingdom. You might be surprised at how many folk think that Moses was a Jew!

BTW you might find https://archive.org/details/messianicjudaism0000telc/mode/1up?view=theater worth a read.

Your post seems to me to say that 1# not sharing Christians beliefs and 2# not living biblical holiness, ultimately damns. If we do a Gen.18, ie analyse down to a core position, we might ask whether 1# not sharing Christians beliefs but 2# living a moderate amount of biblical holiness will ultimately damn, and whether 1# sharing Christians beliefs but 2# not living biblical holiness, ultimately damns. Indeed can one share Christians beliefs without being a Christian? But since [God accepts only holy Christians!] focuses down your position, I guess IYO it’s merely a question of only Christians above a certain bar of virtue, judged I guess either over their total time as a Christian or at their last mortal vice/virtue moment, who will ultimately be saved. IMO the only excluder from ultimate heaven is a core unwillingness to be anywhere near God, ie self-damnation.

I agree with you that folk can basically meander in and out of Christianity, but I don’t think that unless caught by death (or the parousia) at a time of being a Christian of good standing, we’re ultimately damned.

 

[Maria222]

Guys, do you know which createria allowed Jews to be in paradise after death?

 

[Vinny37]

Guys, do you know which createria allowed Jews to be in paradise after death?

For my money I take the term paradise to be a garden-descriptive term for heaven. As to criteria for life with God after death, I suspect that for ethnic Jews and ethnic Israelites there is and has been only one criterion, the same as for any other ethnicity, namely that at core they have a desire to be with God.

 

[Who Me]

Guys, do you know which createria allowed Jews to be in paradise after death?

Faith in Jesus, either because in life they have accepted Jesus or because due to their faith in God, Jesus has retrospectively accepted them, see Hebrews 11 the men of faith.

 

[Maria222]

For my money I take the term paradise to be a garden-descriptive term for heaven. As to criteria for life with God after death, I suspect that for ethnic Jews and ethnic Israelites there is and has been only one criterion, the same as for any other ethnicity, namely that at core they have a desire to be with God.

Their Jewish Scripture did not say that. No teaching on hell or paradise they have in the Old Testament! So what did they need to do in faith? What was the purpose of their religion which is our religion too?! Ponder.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Their Jewish Scripture did not say that. No teaching on hell or paradise they have in the Old Testament! So what did they need to do in faith? What was the purpose of their religion which is our religion too?! Ponder.

The Jewish people needed to keep the law in faith. They needed to believe the law condemns us all and so to receive Gods' mercy is to show His mercy. Our Hero could have slain His enemies instead of being humiliated by them.
But the point is, live by faith that God will right all wrongs.

On another note, I thought I once eead something in Orthodox Judaism about Abrahams' bosom. I thought it was somewhere in the Talmud. Maybe someone knows a Rabbinic source. Could be way off on that.

 

[Vinny37]

Their Jewish Scripture did not say that. No teaching on hell or paradise they have in the Old Testament! So what did they need to do in faith? What was the purpose of their religion which is our religion too?! Ponder.

They did have glimmerings of life beyond death, and of destinations relative to Yahweh (eg Dan.12:2; archaeology shows artifacts were buried with Israelite bodies, indicative of after-death beliefs). The Israelite scriptures picked up on the Persian term we call paradise (viz Neh.2:8; Ecc.2:5; Sg.4:12), and it was used in Jewish intertestamental writings. Thus Jesus used it to the repentant zealot of the cross (Lk.23:43): perhaps it was a buzz word among godly zealots?

The purpose of their religion (ie Sinai) had been to bless those within with an intimacy with Yahweh, and to prepare for the messianic age. Their options were threefold: to reject Yahweh and Sinaism (leave); to accept Sinaism but not Yahweh (remain); to welcome Yahweh and Sinaism (remain and enjoy).

Christianity welcomes Yahweh but not Sinaism. Our religion is messianic Yahwism, as wheat to chaff; as reality to shadow. It’s purpose is to spiritually both enjoy and grow within a messianic intimacy with Yahweh. We are encouraged to share the good news of access into this community.

 

[Who Me]

Our Hero could have slain His enemies instead of being humiliated by them.

If you mean Jesus, then yes as he said he had 12 legions of angels waiting for his call.
But Jesus came to die, as John called him " the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. "
As Paul says in 1Cor 15, if Christ has not been raised we are still in our sins!
If he had to be raised it follows that he had died.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If you mean Jesus, then yes as he said he had 12 legions of angels waiting for his call.
But Jesus came to die, as John called him " the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. "

Yes, As a harmless lamb, our harmless Lamb didn't open didn't open His mouth to condemn His killers, but showed mercy allowing Himself to be sinned against like that.

As Paul says in 1Cor 15, if Christ has not been raised we are still in our sins! If he had to be raised it follows that he had died.

When interpreting 1Corinthian 15, respected reformed theologians as well as Jehovahs' Witnesses have neglected to remember 2 extremely important facts.
1) 1Cor.15 is about the resurrection.
2) Only Adam and Jesus are being compared.

Please read the chapter from beginning to end with these two points in mind on each verse and it becomes plain that Paul is saying Jesus is God.

 

[Who Me]

Jesus is God

Of course Jesus is the Son of God .
If he were not he could not pay for our sins.
Muslims are quite right when they say a man cannot pay for other peoples sins, but must pay for their own sins.

As Jrsus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father.,"

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Of course Jesus is the Son of God .

Yes but you quoted 1Cor.15.

For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27 KJV

Do you understand who Paul is comparing here ?

If he were not he could not pay for our sins.

The law and the prophets forbid substitutionary sacrifice,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his ow nsin. Deu.24:16 KJV

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20 KJV

Muslims are quite right when they say a man cannot pay for other peoples sins, but must pay for their own sins.

On that point the Bible agrees, but Islam teaches that the Messiah didn't ruse from death and that is heresy so leave them out of doctrine.

As Jrsus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father.,"

Yes and Jesus was sinned against in terrible ways by Jews and gentiles yet continued to show all mankind His grace. Exactly like our Father does.
Even the religious leaders who contradicted our Savior were committing sin by doing so.

 

[Who Me]

The law and the prophets forbid substitutionary sacrifice

Which confirms that Jesus is the Son of God.
Only God can forgive sins, only God can atone for all our sins.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Which confirms that Jesus is the Son of God.
Only God can forgive sins, only God can atone for all our sins.

Yes and we find out right quick that if our Lord would forgive the sin of His murder He will freely forgive any repentant. ?

 

[follower]

Yes and we find out right quick that if our Lord would forgive the sin of His murder He will freely forgive any repentant.

Esau tried in vain to repent, even with tears, as written.
There is a sin unto death, we are instructed not to even pray for one who sins this.
There is a sin not unto death, we are instructed it is okay(good?) to pray for this.
Man's ideas about repentance rarely are in harmony with the Creator's Word.

 

[follower]

What was the purpose of their religion

"Their" religion was nothing at all like religion today on earth.
Maybe not even correct to call it religion.
They were to serve Yahweh. 100%. All the time. Every day, all their lives. Completely. Utterly. Holy. (separated, set apart from the world)

 

[follower]

Jesus , born a Jew, King of the Jews, adhered to Judaism (yet not as man looks/sees things).
So did all of the Apostles/ disciples/ and likewise disciples who believed because of the disciples.

Do you think adherents of Judaism will attain salvation?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Esau tried in vain to repent, even with tears, as written.
There is a sin unto death, we are instructed not to even pray for one who sins this.
There is a sin not unto death, we are instructed it is okay(good?) to pray for this.
Man's ideas about repentance rarely are in harmony with the Creator's Word.

Hello follower.
Esau (the individual) didn't try to repent because he was truly sorry for selling his birthright. Esau "sought repentance with tears" because he lost his birthright, not because he was sorry for selling it over beab soup. Esau wanted to kill Jacob.

After time passed, Esau (the individual) and Jacob hugged and wept over one another. Esau acknowledged how God blessed him and those brothers buried their father together.

I don't know if Esau the individual ever repented. Sounds like he did, but In Rom.9, Paul is using Esau as an example of what can happen to Jews who turn from Christ for temporary pleasyre.

 

[Soyeong]

Question:

Do you think adherents of Judaism will attain salvation?

My response:
I hold the view that God demonstrates special loyalty to his chosen Jewish people, Israel, in various ways. However, those who persist in rejecting Jesus as their Messiah are no better off than non-Jews who do the same. In this case they will be judged by God as unbelievers too.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

The way to believe in God and Jesus is by directing our lives being in His likeness through being a doer of His character traits. For example, by being a doer of good works in obedience to God's law we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), and by testifying about God's goodness were are also expressing the belief that God is good, or in other words we are believing in Him. Likewise, the way to believe that God is a doer of justice is by directly our lives towards being a doer of justice in obedience to His instructions, the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy, and so forth. The way to believe in the Son is exactly the same as the way to believe in the Father because the Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so I see no reason to doubt the salvation of anyone who is a doer of God's character traits or to think that they will be judged as an unbeliever.

There exist numerous Messianic Jews, comprising a significant portion of Judaism's followers, who adhere to Jewish laws while also acknowledging Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God. These individuals are considered as heretics and cult followers because Christians are free from implementation of the Jewish laws (for example circumcision is forbidden for them and food dietary laws too).

In Titus 2:14, it doesn't say that Jesus gave himself to free us from God's law, but in order to free us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession, so the freedom that we have in Christ is not the freedom to sin, but the freedom from sin.

It is important to recognize that Paul can speak against obeying God for an incorrect reason without promoting rebellion against Him. If Paul had been speaking against circumcision for any reason, then according to Galatians 5:2, Paul caused Christ to be of no value to Timothy when he had him circumcised right after the Jerusalem Council and Christ is of no value to roughly 80% of them men in the US. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, that was never the reason for which God commanded circumcision, so the Jerusalem Council upheld God's law by correctly ruling against requiring circumcision for an incorrect reason. In Exodus 12:48, a Gentile who wanted to eat of the Passover lamb was required to become circumcised, so the Jerusalem Council should not be interpreted as ruling against Gentiles correctly acting in accordance with what God has commanded as if they had the authority to countermand God.

1 Peter 1:16, we are told to be holy for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to do that, which includes refraining from eating unclean animals (Leviticus 11:44-45).

Galatians 5: "Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace".
These groups of the messianic heretics are fallen away from grace snd they are not believers anymore!

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, and even Jesus began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:4 and Paul warning us that we will be cut off from Christ if we repent and believe the Gospel of Christ. Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret Psalms 119:29-30 and Exodus 33:13 as them wanting God to be gracious to them by teaching them how to fall from grace, so you are not correctly identifying what Paul was speaking against.

As for others who do not share Christians beliefs and who do not live holy, based on Scripture, they will not gain entry into heaven. So, while we cannot fully grasp the extent of God's mercy, there is no guarantee that those Jews who reject Jesus will be accepted.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him.