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The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance

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Soma-Sight

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The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance1


Louis W. Cable

Paul's writing is no better than the jargon of a conjurer who picks up phrases he does not understand to confound the credulous people who come to have their fortune told.
Thomas Paine2




Let us consider the question of Paul's ignorance, perhaps the most perplexing problem confronting the defenders of the historical Jesus. The Apostle Paul, often referred to as the founder of Christianity, seems to have been totally unaware of any details of Jesus' life and teachings as they are presented in the New Testament gospels. Nowhere does Paul equate his hero, Jesus Christ, with a virgin born miracle worker from Nazareth recently put to death in Judea. Certainly it is not unreasonable to expect that somewhere among his extensive writings he would have betrayed some knowledge of the circumstances surrounding these most important events had they actually occurred.

Paul's dates are not definitely known, but he must have lived from somewhere around 53 to around 674. Although these dates may not be exact, the traditional dates of Jesus’ ministry (27-30) fall well within them. When Jesus was supposed to have been active in his ministry, Paul was a grown man in his early to mid twenties living and working in Jerusalem. He was a Jew, a member of the tribe of Benjamin (Romans 11:1). He claims to have studied under the famous rabbinical teacher, Gamaliel, and to have been closely associated with the political and religious leaders of that day (Acts 22:3-5). During that time Jerusalem was a city of approximately 120,000 population5, not significantly large. He surely must have heard of Jesus, the miracle worker. In Matthew 4:24 we learn that Jesus' fame as a healer had spread "throughout all of Syria." How could he have missed Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem which, according to Matthew 21:1-10, attracted great multitudes6. How could he not have heard about Jesus’ cleansing of the temple which incurred the wrath of the chief priest (Matthew 21:12-16)? As an enforcer of the law, how could Paul not have known of Jesus’ betrayal by Judas Iscariot, the trial, and/or the crucifixion with its attendant anomalies such as darkness at noon and earthquakes? Why didn't he mention the resurrection of the saints (Matthew 27:52-53) or the amputation by Peter of the right ear of Malchus, the chief priest's slave (John 18:10,) and its miraculous reattachment by Jesus (Luke 22:51)? Surely Paul would have encountered Jesus sometime during those years so crucial to what was later to become the Christian religion. In Luke 24:18 Cleopas, one of the two travelers the resurrected Jesus encountered on the road to Emmaus, says that everybody in Jerusalem knew about Jesus. Yet, not a single reference to these important, even astounding, events appears anywhere in the authentic Pauline epistles. As far as the record goes, the only encounter Paul ever had with Jesus was that famous incident which allegedly occurred on the road to Damascus.

The Book of Acts records three separate accounts of Paul’s conversion to Christianity. None of these accounts agrees fully with the other two. For example, in Acts 9:7 Paul says that the men with him "heard the voice." But in Acts 22:9 he says they "did not hear the voice." The other contradiction lies in the manner in which Paul claims to have received his instructions. According to the first two accounts, Jesus didn't say very much. He directed Paul to go into the city where he would be told what he must do (Acts 9:6 and 22:10). However, in his defense before King Agrippa (Acts 26:12-18) Paul tells a different story. Here he says that Jesus instructed him in great detail right there on the spot. So, did Paul (or the writer of Acts of the Apostles) deliberately lie?

Paul tells in II Cor. 11:32-33 how he made a daring escape from the agents of King Aretas who were out to arrest him. This establishes a reliable extra-biblical time line because Aretas, King of the Nabataeans, is a historical person known to have died in the year 407. Therefore, Paul’s conversion and the beginning of his career as an evangelist had to have taken place sometime in the late 30s, less than ten years after the alleged crucifixion. He should have been personally acquainted with many people who had had direct contact with Jesus. For example, he went to Jerusalem where he spent fifteen days with Cephas (Peter) (Galatians 1:18), whom Jesus had personally selected to be his earthly successor (Matthew 16:18-19). Surely they discussed the life of Jesus, and his teachings.

Those Pauline epistles considered to be genuine were written between 50 and 60. They predate the gospels and are among the earliest extant Christian writings. For that reason one would expect them to contain a wealth of details about Jesus' life and teachings, details confirming the gospel accounts. But this is far from the case. Concerning the alleged virgin birth Paul never mentions Mary. He says only that, Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law (Galatians 4:4). The time, place and circumstances of Jesus’ alleged miraculous conception and birth, recorded in such great detail in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, are never mentioned. Paul says not one word about Joseph, Jesus’ surrogate father who figures so prominently in the birth narratives. Also, Paul apparently never heard of John the Baptist who not only baptized Jesus, but who is said to have been instrumental in the fulfillment of certain Old Testament prophecies allegedly confirming Jesus as the long awaited messiah.

In Romans 1:3 Paul tells us without proof that Jesus was in fact a direct descendant of King David. Paul's writings predate the gospels of Matthew and Luke by some twenty five to thirty years. He was a contemporary of Jesus yet he obviously never heard of the virgin birth touted as one of Christianity's most important miracles. The only conclusion we are left with is that the virgin birth of Jesus is a fantasy concoction of the writers of Matthew and Luke inserted in their gospels probably for the purpose of converting Pagans.

In Matthew 23 Jesus bitterly denounces the scribes and the Pharisees, accusing them of being nothing more than a bunch of lying hypocrites out to get him. Apparently Paul was unaware of this because when testifying before the chief priest and the Council he proudly proclaims, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" (Acts 23:6).

First Corinthians 15:45 begins with the familiar words, "So it is written" and goes on to say, "the first man, Adam, was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Here Paul claims to quote scripture that is nonexistent. There is no mention anywhere else in the Bible of a second Adam. This second Adam, according to Paul, is none other than Jesus, a spirit who, according to 1 Cor. 15:47, came directly from heaven. This Pauline passage contradicts the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke as well as Gelatins 4:4.

In Philippians 3:10-11 Paul declares with great emotion, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." Yet when he returns to Jerusalem it is merely to visit Peter, as mentioned above. He never expresses the slightest desire to see Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, Nazareth, his home town, the sites of his preaching, the upper room where he is supposed to have held the fabled Last Supper, nor Calvary where the ultimate sacrifice was allegedly made. Most astonishing of all, however, is that there is not one hint of a pilgrimage to the tomb in which the resurrection, the center piece of Paul’s theology, is supposed to have taken place.

Paul makes no references to Jesus' ethical and moral teachings in situations where it would have been in his best interest to have done so8. He, in fact, contradicts some of them. For example, Paul held that gentile Christians need not obey Jewish law to be saved (Gal. 3:8-9 and 5:6). Evidently he was unaware that this was a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus on this matter (Matthew 5:17-19). Furthermore when Paul does make such ethical pronouncements as "Bless those who persecute you" (Romans 12:14), he does not cite the authority of Jesus (Matthew 5:10-12). We can only conclude that he never heard of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus’ prescription for Christian living.

First Corinthians 13 (NRSV) has been dubbed, "Paul's Hymn to Love." Throughout this short chapter he does indeed wax eloquent over that important emotion. The chapter concludes with Paul summing it all up as follows, "And now faith, hope and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love." Why at this point in his pontification didn't Paul cite the many love pronouncements of Jesus particularly John 13:34? Here Jesus issues the well known new commandment, "That you love one another." Was Paul unaware of it?

When Paul, in Romans 8:26, says "we do not know how to pray as we should," does this mean he was unaware that Jesus taught the Lord’s prayer to his disciples (Matthew 6:9, Luke 11:2)? Did Paul not know of Jesus’ prayer against temptation (Mark 14:35-36 and parallels) or the famous farewell prayer (John 17:1-16)? In 2 Cor. 12:12 Paul states, "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you . . . by signs and wonders and miracles." Surely Paul would have cited Jesus' miracles at this point, had he been aware of them. We can only surmise that Paul had no knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus as they are presented in the gospels. Considering his temporal proximity to these events this makes absolutely no sense.

Paul’s brief rendition of the resurrection appears in I Corinthians 15:3-8: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. This bare list stands as the earliest extant reference to a resurrection tradition. But there are big problems. First, Paul refers to scripture that is non-existent. No one has yet been able to locate it. Second, "the twelve" apparently refers to the apostles and has to include Judas Iscariot. Here again Paul, a contemporary of Jesus, shows no awareness of Judas and the important events surrounding his alleged treachery and death. Third, who were the "more than five hundred"? They are never identified nor are there any eyewitness reports from any of them, and there is no mention of them anywhere in the gospels. So what it comes down to is that it’s Paul’s word and his alone.

G. A. Wells10 points out that Paul is not alone in his silence concerning the alleged earthly life of Jesus as it is portrayed in the gospels. Also silent in regard to this question are all of the earliest extant Christian writings as well as the extant writings of all first century Jewish historians. References to the biography of Jesus as depicted in the gospels does begin to not appear in Christian writings until the beginning of the first century after the gospels had become current. It becomes obvious therefore that it was the gospels themselves that provided the source for these writings. (See Are the Gospels True? on this web site.)

The first paragraph of this essay ends with a question - Why? Why was the Apostle Paul ignorant of the life of Jesus as it is presented in the gospels? Well, the answer is obvious. The gospels are fiction, and Jesus’ "life" had not been invented when Paul lived and wrote.

For more information on Paul see The Pauline Epistles and Would You Buy a Used Car From St. Paul? on this website.

_____________________________________________________

1 Compiled by Louis W. Cable.

2 The Age of Reason.

3 All dates are common era (CE) unless otherwise indicated.

4 Webster’s II New Riverside University Dictionary, under Biographical Entries.

5 Encyclopedia Judaica - population and area of Jerusalem during the time of Pontius Pilate (26-36).

6 In the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia "multitude" is defined as a number too great to count.

7 Brownrigg, Ronald - Who’s Who in the New Testament - Holt, Rinehart and Wenston, 1971 - page 34.

8 Wells, G. A., 1999. The Jesus Myth, page 69.

9 Mack, Burton L., Who Wrote the New Testament? pgs. 206 - 207.

10 Wells, G. A. , Can We Trust the New Testament?, Open Court, 2004, pages 50-51.

http://home.inu.net/skeptic/paulsig.html
 
Let us consider the question of Paul's ignorance, perhaps the most perplexing problem confronting the defenders of the historical Jesus.

Let’s deal with your ignorance.

The Apostle Paul, often referred to as the founder of Christianity,


Who refers to Paul as the founder of Christianity, must be atheist and Christ-haters. Christ founded Christianity according to every Christian I know of. Thats why they are called Chritians. Understand?


Paul seems to have been totally unaware of any details of Jesus' life and teachings as they are presented in the New Testament gospels.

What evidence do you have for this statement?

Nowhere does Paul equate his hero, Jesus Christ, with a virgin born miracle worker from Nazareth recently put to death in Judea.

So, would it matter if he did? You would then bash him for commenting on something that happened 20 years before his time. Did you want him to just rehash the Gospels?


Certainly it is not unreasonable to expect that somewhere among his extensive writings he would have betrayed some knowledge of the circumstances surrounding these most important events had they actually occurred.

What knowledge of circumstances are you wanting to know about? Isn’t that what the Gospels are for?

When Jesus was supposed to have been active in his ministry, Paul was a grown man in his early to mid twenties living and working in Jerusalem

Any proof?

How could he have missed Jesus’ triumphal entry into Jerusalem which, according to Matthew 21:1-10, attracted great multitudes6. How could he not have heard about Jesus’ cleansing of the temple which incurred the wrath of the chief priest (Matthew 21:12-16)? As an enforcer of the law, how could Paul not have known of Jesus’ betrayal by Judas Iscariot, the trial, and/or the crucifixion with its attendant anomalies such as darkness at noon and earthquakes? Why didn't he mention the resurrection of the saints (Matthew 27:52-53) or the amputation by Peter of the right ear of Malchus, the chief priest's slave (John 18:10,) and its miraculous reattachment by Jesus (Luke 22:51)?

Again, any proof? Or just that he didn’t mention any of this in his letters is all the proof you need. What does it matter if he did or didn’t witness these events?

The Book of Acts records three separate accounts of Paul’s conversion to Christianity. None of these accounts agrees fully with the other two. For example, in Acts 9:7 Paul says that the men with him "heard the voice." But in Acts 22:9 he says they "did not hear the voice."


Act 9:7 And the men who are journeying with him stood speechless, hearing indeed the voice but seeing no one,


Act 22:9 and they who are with me the light did see, and became afraid, and the voice they heard not of him who is speaking to meâ€â€


Hearing a voice - Hearing a sound or noise. The word here rendered “voice†is thus frequently used, as in Gen_3:8; 1Sa_12:18; Psa_29:3-4; Mat_24:31 (Greek); 1Th_4:16. In Act_22:9, it is said, “They which were with me (Paul) saw indeed the light, and were afraid, but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.†In this place, the words “heard not the voice†must be understood in the sense of “understanding the words,†of hearing the address, the distinct articulation, which Paul heard. They heard a “noiseâ€Â; they were amazed and alarmed, but they did not hear the distinct words addressed to Saul. A similar instance occurs in Joh_12:28-29, when the voice of God came from heaven to Jesus, “The people who stood by and heard it said it thundered.†They heard the sound, the noise; they did not distinguish the words addressed to him. See also Dan_10:7, and 1Ki_19:11-13.



The other contradiction lies in the manner in which Paul claims to have received his instructions. According to the first two accounts, Jesus didn't say very much. He directed Paul to go into the city where he would be told what he must do (Acts 9:6 and 22:10). However, in his defense before King Agrippa (Acts 26:12-18) Paul tells a different story. Here he says that Jesus instructed him in great detail right there on the spot. So, did Paul (or the writer of Acts of the Apostles) deliberately lie?

Act 26:16 -
But rise ... - The particulars mentioned in this verse and the two following are not recorded in the account of Paul’s conversion in Acts 9; but it is not improbable that many circumstances may have occurred which are not recorded. Paul dwells on them here at length in order particularly to show his authority for doing what he had done in preaching to the Gentiles.


Act 26:16 -
But rise, etc. - The particulars mentioned here, and in the two following verses, are not given in Act_9:1-9, nor in Act_22:6-11, where he gives an account of his conversion. He has detailed the different circumstances of that important event, as he saw it necessary; and perhaps there were several others which then took place, that he had no opportunity of mentioning, because there was nothing in succeeding occurrences which rendered it necessary to produce them.


Paul tells in II Cor. 11:32-33 how he made a daring escape from the agents of King Aretas who were out to arrest him. This establishes a reliable extra-biblical time line because Aretas, King of the Nabataeans, is a historical person known to have died in the year 407. Therefore, Paul’s conversion and the beginning of his career as an evangelist had to have taken place sometime in the late 30s, less than ten years after the alleged crucifixion. He should have been personally acquainted with many people who had had direct contact with Jesus. For example, he went to Jerusalem where he spent fifteen days with Cephas (Peter) (Galatians 1:18), whom Jesus had personally selected to be his earthly successor (Matthew 16:18-19). Surely they discussed the life of Jesus, and his teachings.

Once again, because Paul doesn’t write down everything you assume he knew nothing. Brilliant!

Those Pauline epistles considered to be genuine were written between 50 and 60. They predate the gospels and are among the earliest extant Christian writings.

Ignorant.

For that reason one would expect them to contain a wealth of details about Jesus' life and teachings, details confirming the gospel accounts. But this is far from the case. Concerning the alleged virgin birth Paul never mentions Mary. He says only that, Jesus was born of a woman, born under the law (Galatians 4:4). The time, place and circumstances of Jesus’ alleged miraculous conception and birth, recorded in such great detail in the gospels of Matthew and Luke, are never mentioned. Paul says not one word about Joseph, Jesus’ surrogate father who figures so prominently in the birth narratives. Also, Paul apparently never heard of John the Baptist who not only baptized Jesus, but who is said to have been instrumental in the fulfillment of certain Old Testament prophecies allegedly confirming Jesus as the long awaited messiah.

Would it matter to atheist if he did? No.


In Romans 1:3 Paul tells us without proof that Jesus was in fact a direct descendant of King David. Paul's writings predate the gospels of Matthew and Luke by some twenty five to thirty years. He was a contemporary of Jesus yet he obviously never heard of the virgin birth touted as one of Christianity's most important miracles. The only conclusion we are left with is that the virgin birth of Jesus is a fantasy concoction of the writers of Matthew and Luke inserted in their gospels probably for the purpose of converting Pagans.

Or we can conclude that you are even more ignorant than I first thought. Is this suppose to have some sort of effect on those of us who believe in Divine Inspiration? As far as converting pagans, the early Church was mostly Jewish. They seemed not to have a problem with a virgin birth.

In Matthew 23 Jesus bitterly denounces the scribes and the Pharisees, accusing them of being nothing more than a bunch of lying hypocrites out to get him. Apparently Paul was unaware of this because when testifying before the chief priest and the Council he proudly proclaims, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee" (Acts 23:6).

More ignorance on your part. Why does he boast of this in Acts 23? Read and learn and you won’t make a fool out of yourself.


First Corinthians 15:45 begins with the familiar words, "So it is written" and goes on to say, "the first man, Adam, was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Here Paul claims to quote scripture that is nonexistent.


Wrong again. Just think how foolish a real scholar could make you look instead of just a nobody like me.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


This second Adam, according to Paul, is none other than Jesus, a spirit who, according to 1 Cor. 15:47, came directly from heaven. This Pauline passage contradicts the birth narratives of Matthew and Luke as well as Gelatins 4:4.

My, this is getting embarrassing. Where do you think Jesus was before His birth?

1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

In Philippians 3:10-11 Paul declares with great emotion, "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." Yet when he returns to Jerusalem it is merely to visit Peter, as mentioned above. He never expresses the slightest desire to see Bethlehem, Jesus’ birthplace, Nazareth, his home town, the sites of his preaching, the upper room where he is supposed to have held the fabled Last Supper, nor Calvary where the ultimate sacrifice was allegedly made. Most astonishing of all, however, is that there is not one hint of a pilgrimage to the tomb in which the resurrection, the center piece of Paul’s theology, is supposed to have taken place.

Perhaps Paul had more important things to do than just worship relics. Unbelievable stupidity.

Paul makes no references to Jesus' ethical and moral teachings in situations where it would have been in his best interest to have done so8. He, in fact, contradicts some of them. For example, Paul held that gentile Christians need not obey Jewish law to be saved (Gal. 3:8-9 and 5:6). Evidently he was unaware that this was a direct contradiction of the teachings of Jesus on this matter (Matthew 5:17-19). Furthermore when Paul does make such ethical pronouncements as "Bless those who persecute you" (Romans 12:14), he does not cite the authority of Jesus (Matthew 5:10-12). We can only conclude that he never heard of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus’ prescription for Christian living.

This is what you get when atheist try to be Christian Theologians.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Apparently obeying the Law as the Pharisees an scribes did wasn’t good enough. So much for the Law getting you into Heaven. Interestingly you left out verse 20.


Surely Paul would have cited Jesus' miracles at this point, had he been aware of them. We can only surmise that Paul had no knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus as they are presented in the gospels. Considering his temporal proximity to these events this makes absolutely no sense.

Where were Jesus’ miracles done? Where were the apostles miracles done? Where did Paul teach? Kindergarten level theology.

Paul’s brief rendition of the resurrection appears in I Corinthians 15:3-8: For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. This bare list stands as the earliest extant reference to a resurrection tradition. But there are big problems. First, Paul refers to scripture that is non-existent. No one has yet been able to locate it.

Psa 16:10 For Thou dost not leave my soul to Sheol, Nor givest thy saintly one to see corruption.

Isa 53:9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich are his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor is deceit in his mouth.

Second, "the twelve" apparently refers to the apostles and has to include Judas Iscariot.

Then of the twelve - The apostles; still called “the twelve,†though Judas was not one of them. It was common to call the apostles “the twelve.†Jesus appeared to the apostles at one time in the absence of Thomas Joh_20:19, Joh_20:24; and also to them when Thomas was present, Joh_20:24-29. Probably Paul here refers to the latter occasion, when all the surviving apostles were present.

Third, who were the "more than five hundred"? They are never identified nor are there any eyewitness reports from any of them, and there is no mention of them anywhere in the gospels. So what it comes down to is that it’s Paul’s word and his alone.

Again, what would it matter? You don’t believe in the resurrection anyway so why does it bother you that Paul writes about it?

G. A. Wells10 points out that Paul is not alone in his silence concerning the alleged earthly life of Jesus as it is portrayed in the gospels. Also silent in regard to this question are all of the earliest extant Christian writings as well as the extant writings of all first century Jewish historians. References to the biography of Jesus as depicted in the gospels does begin to not appear in Christian writings until the beginning of the first century after the gospels had become current. It becomes obvious therefore that it was the gospels themselves that provided the source for these writings. (See Are the Gospels True? on this web site.)

Wells is either a liar or ignorant. http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/rhjesus.html

The first paragraph of this essay ends with a question - Why? Why was the Apostle Paul ignorant of the life of Jesus as it is presented in the gospels? Well, the answer is obvious. The gospels are fiction, and Jesus’ "life" had not been invented when Paul lived and wrote.

This is laughable. So the Gospel accounts were created after the teachings of Paul. Is this the best this bozo can do? Is this you George?
 
Let's not forget where Paul comes from.....Tarsus...a hotbed of Mithraism and Gnosticism....

And....Paul claims to be a student of Gamaliel (the Grandson of Hillel) who was the head of the Pharisee's...Gamaliel only took the brightest of students to teach...and from studies done on the arguments and logic that Paul uses in his letters, they are not those of a classically trained Rabbi. So the question arises if Paul was really a Pharisee.

also, Paul uses quotes from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT)and not the original Hebrew that a student of Gamaliel would have used..there are differences.

and....Paul worked under the High Priest (who was a Sadducee). It is highly unlikely that a Pharisee would have worked hand in hand with a Sadducee. The Pharisee's held the Sadducees in minor contempt as they were considered Roman lackeys.

Did you know that the Ebonites (descendents of the Nazarene Christians) held Paul in contempt and considered him an Apostate, claim that Paul may have been a Gentile who fell in love with Judaism. Traveling to Jerusalem (as an adult) fell in love the the High Priest's daughter and trying to win her hand, did the Sadducean High Priests bidding...as a henchman for the HP he began rounding up Pharisaic believers in Jesus because of the political problem they posed for the HP and Rome. They also believe that he fell out of favor with the HP on the road to Damascus....and converted....

My speculation:

That would explain a lot considering Paul was from an area of Mystery Religion and Gnosticism...and the rejection by the HP in regard to his daughter and Paul may have resulted in Paul's dislike of women...
 
Congrats George, you finally found someone who agrees with you, an atheist.
 
preterist said:
Congrats George, you finally found someone who agrees with you, an atheist.

And may I offer them back to you.....you really countered his post most efficiently.....Your arguments of "Ignorant" and "Ignorance" were well thought out and used very effectively.....

You really can't argue the first post...the best you can do (and I understand it is your modus) is to attack without substance....

Good for you boooooooyyyyyyyy........ :bday:
 
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Bible suggests Paul actually met Jesus (although it does suggest he was working against his teachings and against him before his road to Damascus experience). That would mean that direct reference to what Jesus did would be from second hand accounts.

As to Paul being the 'Founder of Christianity', that might be a reference to the structure of the Catholic church which I am led to believe is based very much upon Pauline teachings. Again, I may be wrong.

As far as contradicting Jesus teachings is concerned, it could be that whilst Jesus was alive, certain conditions were still in place- Hebrew Law for example, and it was only upon Jesus death and resurrection that those laws were fulfilled and gentiles were no longer subject to them in the same way. If Paul was taught by other apostles, as is suggested, then it could be that this was a part of the Christian mystery that was revealed after the resurrection. It wouldn't appear in the accounts of Jesus life in the same format as those events that took place before the resurrection.

PLease forgive me if I am incorrect. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a non-believer trying to understand believers.

BB

Mike
 
Cern said:
I may be wrong, but I don't think the Bible suggests Paul actually met Jesus (although it does suggest he was working against his teachings and against him before his road to Damascus experience). That would mean that direct reference to what Jesus did would be from second hand accounts.

As to Paul being the 'Founder of Christianity', that might be a reference to the structure of the Catholic church which I am led to believe is based very much upon Pauline teachings. Again, I may be wrong.

As far as contradicting Jesus teachings is concerned, it could be that whilst Jesus was alive, certain conditions were still in place- Hebrew Law for example, and it was only upon Jesus death and resurrection that those laws were fulfilled and gentiles were no longer subject to them in the same way. If Paul was taught by other apostles, as is suggested, then it could be that this was a part of the Christian mystery that was revealed after the resurrection. It wouldn't appear in the accounts of Jesus life in the same format as those events that took place before the resurrection.

PLease forgive me if I am incorrect. I'm looking at this from the perspective of a non-believer trying to understand believers.

BB

Mike

No problem - no doubt others will have more to add. Paul actually says in scripture that he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. But not in a physical sense as you or I would meet another human being. Is this what you were referring to or does your reference to a 'second hand account' imply something else?
 
Anyone who condemns Paul as being ignorant, misinformed, or whatever I count as lost and on their way to a lake of fire and, has no business discussing anything spiritual.
 
And may I offer them back to you.....you really countered his post most efficiently.....Your arguments of "Ignorant" and "Ignorance" were well thought out and used very effectively.....

You really can't argue the first post...the best you can do (and I understand it is your modus) is to attack without substance....

Good for you boooooooyyyyyyyy........

lolololol.......
 
Soma-Sight,

So, I guess that you don't believe anything written other than the four gospels and the few other books that weren't written by Paul? Wow, that certainly narrows down the amount one would have to study.

And most of the points that you made, (or actually, that someone else made), are really irrelevant to whether or not Paul was divinely inspired. For someone not to mention something doesn't prove or disprove anything other than they didn't mention it. Paul DIDN'T witness the ministry of Christ so there was little that he would have been able to add or take away from what others offered that did witness His ministry. I don't see the relevance of the individual points that were offered.

And Christ's ministry was very short. There is no problem in my mind or in my heart in the understanding that more was needed than what was accomplished during His short life here in the flesh. The Jews obviously didn't even understand that Christ died for 'all men', not just the Jewish nation. If not for Paul, there is much likelihood that the Jews would have coveted this religion and it would still be 'only theirs'. We certainly see the evidence of what it took for God to convince Peter that Christ died for the Gentiles too. And even then there is evidence that he 'still' didn't grasp it completely, still teaching circumcision and such.

I guess it pretty much boils down to faith. Either one accepts or they deny. And I guess the evidence of denial is obvious in that there have been many that disagreed with much written in the KJV of the Bible and decided to re-write their own, adding to, or leaving out that which they didn't agree with.

All I can add at this point is that there will be those that are chosen to 'see' and those that this information will seem but foolish babble. That's really the way of it and nothing anyone can do but pray and try to be as obedient as possible so their personal relationship can grow to the point that they KNOW the things that they 'need' to know. Otherwise there's nothing left but the speculation of those that are lost.
 
mutzrein said:
No problem - no doubt others will have more to add. Paul actually says in scripture that he met Jesus on the road to Damascus. But not in a physical sense as you or I would meet another human being. Is this what you were referring to or does your reference to a 'second hand account' imply something else?

The 'second hand' bit is more a reference to his working with the other apostles. I was specifically speaking of first hand physical meetings. Anything else could be put down to imaginings if one wanted to grind an axe.

Anyone who condemns Paul as being ignorant, misinformed, or whatever I count as lost and on their way to a lake of fire and, has no business discussing anything spiritual.

Interesting view there AVBunyan. One could read into that statement a desire to avoid any speculation entering into spiritual discussions. Now from where I'm standing that would suggest a wobbly faith. If you believe Paul was not misinformed or ignorant then saying so, and possibly saying why you feel that way would be much more in keeping with a successful witness than intimating that doubts and speculation (you chose the word condemnation. Perhaps a harsh interpertation) should be prevented from being aired. How did Christ deal with Thomas, or other apostles who expressed doubts?

BB

Mike
 
Paul DIDN'T witness the ministry of Christ so there was little that he would have been able to add or take away from what others offered that did witness His ministry. I don't see the relevance of the individual points that were offered.

Of course the Gospel writers were not eye witnesses either to any of the miracles written about so maybe you are right!
 
AVBunyan said:
Anyone who condemns Paul as being ignorant, misinformed, or whatever I count as lost and on their way to a lake of fire and, has no business discussing anything spiritual.

I don't consider Paul as being arrogant, misinformed, or whatever....

I consider him as being very sharp, calculating, and very opportunistic.....a chameleon.........all things to all men.....that is until he was called on it and had to skip town....ever wonder why Paul was in trouble with both the Jews and the Jewish believers? That's because he was preaching Jesus...but not the Jesus of the Tanach....
 
Georges said:
That's because he was preaching Jesus...but not the Jesus of the Tanach....
You are blind as a bat coming in backwards on this.

Georges said:
also, Paul uses quotes from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT)and not the original Hebrew that a student of Gamaliel would have used..there are differences.
You couldn't prove this if your life depended on it - :roll:

Plus this mythical septuagint some of you folks make reference to was written in the 3rd century AD from Alexandria - most likely Origen's 5th column of his hexaphala he and his croonies put together to fool you King James critics.

Oh, by the way - I've a bridge for sale - :-D
 
AVBunyan said:
Georges said:
That's because he was preaching Jesus...but not the Jesus of the Tanach....
You are blind as a bat coming in backwards on this.

Georges said:
also, Paul uses quotes from the Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT)and not the original Hebrew that a student of Gamaliel would have used..there are differences.

You couldn't prove this if your life depended on it - :roll:

Do you know who Gamaliel was?
Do you know anything about the Yeshiva of Hillel? School of Hillel?
Gamaliel was the top dog in Jewish theology...and the School of Hillel would have been the MIT of Jewish theology....only the best students accepted.
Do you think that they would have taught the Greek septuagint in that school?

Paul's quoting of septuagint scriptures alone is cause for suspecting his schooling credentials...

If you do the research...Paul makes his suppositions on what appears to be Pharisic logic...but the school of Pharisism has a certain style of how arguements (apologetics) are to be made...Paul doesn't put forth in his letters the arguments as one trained in classic (phariscism) and at the very least one who accelled above his peers should have done.....


Plus this mythical septuagint some of you folks make reference to was written in the 3rd century AD from Alexandria - most likely Origen's 5th column of his hexaphala he and his croonies put together to fool you King James critics.

AV...please...you are making this too easy..... :-D

From the Jewishencyclopedia.com article on Bible Translations....

The Septuagint.

The oldest and most important of all the versions made by Jews is that called "The Septuagint" ("Interpretatio septuaginta virorum" or "seniorum"). It is a monument of the Greek spoken by the large and important Jewish community of Alexandria; not of classic Greek, nor even of the Hellenistic style affected by Alexandrian writers. If the account given by Aristeas be true, some traces of Palestinian influence should be found; but a study of the Egyptian papyri, which are abundant for this particular period, is said by both Mahaffy and Deissmann to show a very close similarity between the language they represent and that of the Septuagint, not to mention the Egyptian words already recognized by both Hody and Eichhorn. These papyri have in a measure reinstated Aristeas (about 200 B.C.) in the opinion of scholars. Upon his "Letter to Philocrates" the tradition as to the origin of the Septuagint rests. It is now believed that even though he may have been mistaken in some points, his facts in general are worthy of credence (Abrahams, in "Jew. Quart. Rev." xiv. 321). According to Aristeas, the Pentateuch was translated at the time of Philadelphus, the second Ptolemy (285-247 B.C.), which translation was encouraged by the king and welcomed by the Jews of Alexandria. Grätz ("Gesch. der Juden," 3d ed., iii. 615) stands alone in assigning it to the reign of Philometor (181-146 B.C.). Whatever share the king may have had in the work, it evidently satisfied a pressing need felt by the Jewish community, among whom a knowledge of Hebrew was rapidly waning before the demands of every-day life.

It is not known when the other books of the Bible were rendered into Greek. The grandson of Ben Sira (132 B.C.), in the prologue to his translation of his grandfather's work, speaks of the "Law, Prophets, and the rest of the books" as being already current in his day. A Greek Chronicles is mentioned by Eupolemus (middle of second century B.C.); Aristeas, the historian, quotes Job; a foot-note to the Greek Esther seems to show that that book was in circulation before the end of the second century B.C.; and the Septuagint Psalter is quoted in I Macc. vii. 17. It is therefore more than probable that the whole of the Bible was translated into Greek before the beginning of the Christian era (Swete, "An Introduction to the O. T. in Greek," ch. i.). The large number of Greek-speaking Jewish communities in Palestine, Syria, Mesopotamia, Asia Minor, and northern Africa must have facilitated its spread in all these regions. The quotations from the Old Testament found in the New are in the main taken from the Septuagint; and even where the citation is indirect the influence of this version is clearly seen. This will also explain in a measure the undoubted influence of the Septuagint upon the Syriac translation called the "Peshiṭta."

Being a composite work, the translation varies in the different books. In the Pentateuch, naturally, it adheres most closely to the original; in Job it varies therefrom most widely. In some books (e.g., Daniel) the influence of the Jewish Midrash is more apparent than in others. Where it is literal it is "intolerable as a literary work" (Swete, ib. p. 22). The translation, which shows at times a peculiar ignorance of Hebrew usage, was evidently made from a codex which differed widely in places from the text crystallized by the Masorah. Its influence upon the Greek-speaking Jews must have been great. In course of time it came to be the canonical Greek Bible, as Luther's translation became the German, and the Authorized Version the English. It is the version used by the Jewish Hellenistic writers, Demetrius, Eupolemus, Artabanus, Aristeas, Ezekiel, and Aristobulus, as well as in the Book of Wisdom, the translation of Ben Sira, and the Jewish Sibyllines. Hornemann, Siegfried, and Ryle have shown that Philo bases his citations from the Bible on the Septuagint Version, though he has no scruple about modifying them or citing them with much freedom. Josephus follows this translation closely (Freudenthal, "Hellenistische Studien," ii. 171; Siegfried, in Stade's "Zeitschrift," iii. 32). It became part of the Bible of the Christian Church.


Oh, by the way - I've a bridge for sale - :-D

Don't you have that quote backwards....shouldn't I be saying that to you? :-D


AV....will you at least concede that the septuagint was written BC? Please.....wikipedia it if you wish....
 
Re: The Mystery of Soma-Sight ignorance

Soma-Sight said:
The Mystery of Paul's Ignorance1
Louis W. Cable

Let us consider the question of Paul's ignorance, perhaps the most perplexing problem confronting the defenders of the historical Jesus. The Apostle Paul, often referred to as the founder of Christianity, seems to have been totally unaware of any details of Jesus' life and teachings as they are presented in the New Testament gospels. Nowhere does Paul equate his hero, Jesus Christ, with a virgin born miracle worker from Nazareth recently put to death in Judea.

Oh dear, more rubbish from Soma-Sight.

Read and learn:
http://www.geocities.com/jnkslagle/1Cor15.htm

:roll:

:) :)
 
Soma, what bone do you have to pick with Paul? I understand George's concerns, as he studies Christianity from a historical, Jewish perspective, but what about you Soma? Is this just jumping on the "bash" bandwagon?



AV, I've only been studying Bible history for less than seven years now, but... What I've found narrows down the origin of the Septuagint to 2-3rd. century B.C and was limited (at the time) to the Pentateuch (first five books of our OT).

I am also failing to understand how any of Origen's work was deliberately meant to fool JK critics... unless Origen was psychic and knew there would be a KJV one day, hundreds of yeas later. :wink:

A while back, both Thess and myself have shown that the Septuagint was quoted in part throughout the NT, but enough on the Septuagint, unless someone cares to start a thread on it's discussion.

Back to Paul... 8-)
 
Soma-Sight said:
Paul DIDN'T witness the ministry of Christ so there was little that he would have been able to add or take away from what others offered that did witness His ministry. I don't see the relevance of the individual points that were offered.

Of course the Gospel writers were not eye witnesses either to any of the miracles written about so maybe you are right!

Actually we don't know how much, or how little of that written by John and Matthew, was actually witnessed. But Mark and Luke were certainly written from second-hand information.
 
vic said:
1. AV, I've only been studying Bible history for less than seven years now, but... What I've found narrows down the origin of the Septuagint to 2-3rd. century B.C and was limited (at the time) to the Pentateuch (first five books of our OT).

2. I am also failing to understand how any of Origen's work was deliberately meant to fool JK critics... unless Origen was psychic and knew there would be a KJV one day, hundreds of yeas later. :wink: 8-)
1. Dr. Ruckmkan's "Christain's Handbook of Manuscript of Evidence" proves my statement on it being written no earlier than the 3rd Century AD and others besides Dr. Ruckman also back this view up - Dr. Reagan, bro. Will Kiinney and many others

2. Just off the cuff humor.

Now - I will leave it alone.

God bless
 
Soma, what bone do you have to pick with Paul? I understand George's concerns, as he studies Christianity from a historical, Jewish perspective, but what about you Soma? Is this just jumping on the "bash" bandwagon?

Its an interesting article.

Paul wrote his stuff before Gospels Matt Luke John were ever done by non eyewitnesses.

It is strange to me.
 
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