The New Covenant

[RND]

An interesting take on the "New Covenant" is that it was only promised to the house of Israel and Judah.

Jer 31:31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Yet there are many in Christianity today, especially dispensationalists, that deny this by saying there is no such things as "replacement theology." Now, while I too disagree with "replacement theology" it's not for the reason that dispensationalists do. I believe that the Bible is clear that when we accept the Messiah-the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, we "become" adopted members of the family of Abraham and "fellow citizens" of the nation of Israel.

Are these dispensationalist making an argument based on inferior or dismissed knowledge?

 

[brakelite2]

brakelite2,

re: “Paul himself still attended the passover feasts etc, but they were no longer obligatory...â€Â


Will at least one of the feasts be obligatory again? Zechariah 14:16 would seem to say so.

Yes, I agree with that. The feast of tabernacles is the last of the yearly feasts, and will I believe be celebrated after the second coming. In the OT it was a time of celebration of the completed harvest. So also we celebrate that same way when we are taken with Christ to our heavenly home.

By the way, a subject perhaps for another thread, that means that the feast before the feast of tebaernacles, the Day of Atonement, must find it's anti-typical fulfilment before Jesus comes. The Day of Atonement for the Jew in the OT was a time of judgement. Judgement before the second coming? Hmmmmm....

 

[RND]

brakelite2,

re: “Paul himself still attended the passover feasts etc, but they were no longer obligatory...â€Â


Will at least one of the feasts be obligatory again? Zechariah 14:16 would seem to say so.

Yes, I agree with that. The feast of tabernacles is the last of the yearly feasts, and will I believe be celebrated after the second coming. In the OT it was a time of celebration of the completed harvest. So also we celebrate that same way when we are taken with Christ to our heavenly home.

By the way, a subject perhaps for another thread, that means that the feast before the feast of tebaernacles, the Day of Atonement, must find it's anti-typical fulfilment before Jesus comes. The Day of Atonement for the Jew in the OT was a time of judgement. Judgement before the second coming? Hmmmmm....

brakelite2 do think it is there is anything inherently wrong with marking the observance of these "holydays." Yesterday at our service (sabbath) actually revolved around the need to understand the marking this year's Day of Atonement and the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles).

For example, should we mark the observance of Jesus' birthday on December 25th when it is of pagan origin and clearly not required in scripture? Same goes with Easter, which is simply corrupted and pagan origin, and nothing close to resembling Passover.

 

[brakelite2]

brakelite2,

re: “Paul himself still attended the passover feasts etc, but they were no longer obligatory...â€Â


Will at least one of the feasts be obligatory again? Zechariah 14:16 would seem to say so.

Yes, I agree with that. The feast of tabernacles is the last of the yearly feasts, and will I believe be celebrated after the second coming. In the OT it was a time of celebration of the completed harvest. So also we celebrate that same way when we are taken with Christ to our heavenly home.

By the way, a subject perhaps for another thread, that means that the feast before the feast of tebaernacles, the Day of Atonement, must find it's anti-typical fulfilment before Jesus comes. The Day of Atonement for the Jew in the OT was a time of judgement. Judgement before the second coming? Hmmmmm....

brakelite2 do think it is there is anything inherently wrong with marking the observance of these "holydays." Yesterday at our service (sabbath) actually revolved around the need to understand the marking this year's Day of Atonement and the Feast of Booths (Tabernacles).

For example, should we mark the observance of Jesus' birthday on December 25th when it is of pagan origin and clearly not required in scripture? Same goes with Easter, which is simply corrupted and pagan origin, and nothing close to resembling Passover.

Easter and Christmas for me is an opportune time to witness. It is the only time of the year for so many that thoughts are turned, ever so briefly, to spiritual matters. To take advantage of that is I think a good thing, and would be somewhat taken aback if the suggestion were made that they ought to be 'cancelled' because of the pagan origin.
However, on the same note, I think the observation of Passover at the correct time would be great. There would be so much more we could learn if we spent more serious time studying the feasts and how they were met in the life and death and resurrection of our Lord. The same goes with the other feast days. It would only be to our better understanding of the gospel if we took note of what the days meant for the Jew, how they were celebrated, and how type met antitype in Messiah.
If all protestants did so, then perhaps they may better understand how the weekly Sabbath differs from the annual and how it ought to be still kept as an obligation, not being shadow or type as so many believe.

 

[Bick]

Col 2:14 Our "Certificate of DEBT" was nailed to the cross. The ticket -- the "fine" for violation of the Law of God. Forgiveness as we see in Col 2 is not accomplished by deleting the Law -- it is accomplished by paying the debt required -- nailing the certificate of debt to the cross. Which of course - upholds the law whose penalty is honored rather than ignored.

NASB - Col 2
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,

14 having [b]canceled out the certificate of debt[/b] consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. (NASB)

That is why in 1Cor 7:20 Paul can still say "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God".

And why he says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God".

in Christ,

Bob

MY COMMENTS: So, which commandments to keep? And I know that in my own strength I can not keep them. What then?

 

[dan p]

I see it different , and someone used Heb 8 , I believe they had it right .

1) In Heb 8:7 the Old Covenant was given to Israel AND was to be replaced .

2) We see in Heb 8:8 that the New Covenant will be made with Israel and NOT the Body of Christ . God has NEVER made a Covenant with the Body of Christ .

 

[RND]

I see it different , and someone used Heb 8 , I believe they had it right .

1) In Heb 8:7 the Old Covenant was given to Israel AND was to be replaced .

2) We see in Heb 8:8 that the New Covenant will be made with Israel and NOT the Body of Christ . God has NEVER made a Covenant with the Body of Christ .

Jesus is Israel, therefore the New Covenant was made with only the house of Israel or the house of Judah.

 

[XTruth]

I see it different , and someone used Heb 8 , I believe they had it right .

1) In Heb 8:7 the Old Covenant was given to Israel AND was to be replaced .

2) We see in Heb 8:8 that the New Covenant will be made with Israel and NOT the Body of Christ . God has NEVER made a Covenant with the Body of Christ .

Jesus is Israel, therefore the New Covenant was made with only the house of Israel or the house of Judah.

The New Covenant replaced the law of Moses that was given to the thirteen tribes (all Israel and Judah). It was not just for them alone, but was for all of them and all the Gentiles. Roman 1:16 makes that clear. The Gentiles didn't have a covenant to speak of, so God was making it clear that the covenant they believed to still be in force was not any longer in force. I must be understanding you wrong...there's no way you think that Christians are not under a covenant with God. Have you read the Bible? Again, no offense, I am probably misunderstanding your words

 

[RND]

The New Covenant replaced the law of Moses that was given to the thirteen tribes (all Israel and Judah).

The New Covenant was promised only to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Which one do you belong to?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

It was not just for them alone, but was for all of them and all the Gentiles.

For the gentiles that "join" themselves to the Lord.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Jer 50:5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, [saying], Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant [that] shall not be forgotten.

Roman 1:16 makes that clear.

By adoption.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Gentiles didn't have a covenant to speak of, so God was making it clear that the covenant they believed to still be in force was not any longer in force.

The only way a gentile was part of any covenant was to be circumcised and accept the passover lamb. See Exodus 12. No gentile was allowed near the sanctuary unless he had been circumcised and accepted the passover lamb. This is still done today but spiritually, not physically.

Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God

Num 15:15 One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

I must be understanding you wrong...there's no way you think that Christians are not under a covenant with God. Have you read the Bible?

Right, there's no way I don't think "Christians" aren't under the New Covenant with God. Christians are either part of the house of Judah or the house of Israel.

Again, no offense, I am probably misunderstanding your words

No problem, but you are.

Here's an article by a Messianic rabbi that I think would be profitable for you to read:

THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL

There isn't a "dual covenant" as John Hagee and many dispensationalists like to teach there is only one covenant and that covenant comes in the person of Jesus Christ. Anything else is without merit.

 

[XTruth]

The New Covenant replaced the law of Moses that was given to the thirteen tribes (all Israel and Judah).

The New Covenant was promised only to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. Which one do you belong to?

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

It was not just for them alone, but was for all of them and all the Gentiles.

For the gentiles that "join" themselves to the Lord.

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

Jer 50:5 They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, [saying], Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual covenant [that] shall not be forgotten.

[quote:1epilbyc]Roman 1:16 makes that clear.

By adoption.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The Gentiles didn't have a covenant to speak of, so God was making it clear that the covenant they believed to still be in force was not any longer in force.

The only way a gentile was part of any covenant was to be circumcised and accept the passover lamb. See Exodus 12. No gentile was allowed near the sanctuary unless he had been circumcised and accepted the passover lamb. This is still done today but spiritually, not physically.

Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 [But] the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I [am] the LORD your God

Num 15:15 One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before the LORD. 16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

I must be understanding you wrong...there's no way you think that Christians are not under a covenant with God. Have you read the Bible?

Right, there's no way I don't think "Christians" aren't under the New Covenant with God. Christians are either part of the house of Judah or the house of Israel.

Again, no offense, I am probably misunderstanding your words

No problem, but you are.

Here's an article by a Messianic rabbi that I think would be profitable for you to read:

THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL

There isn't a "dual covenant" as John Hagee and many dispensationalists like to teach there is only one covenant and that covenant comes in the person of Jesus Christ. Anything else is without merit.[/quote:1epilbyc]

COOL! Times like this it is good to be wrong.

 

[RND]

COOL! Times like this it is good to be wrong.

I wouldn't characterize you as being "wrong" just mistaken. There's a difference. :D

 

[Vic C.]

I see it different , and someone used Heb 8 , I believe they had it right .

1) In Heb 8:7 the Old Covenant was given to Israel AND was to be replaced .

2) We see in Heb 8:8 that the New Covenant will be made with Israel and NOT the Body of Christ . God has NEVER made a Covenant with the Body of Christ .

Jesus is Israel, therefore the New Covenant was made with only the house of Israel or the house of Judah.

First thing I need to say is, the Body of Christ is the very essence of the New Covenant. It will be the Ekklesia and it's founding Apostles that most likely will rule in some way over National Israel.

I don't know much about the person who wrote this, but I like it and agree with what it teaches. http://www.keresey.com/newcovenant.htm

Now, I wouldn't say Jesus is Israel. I may say He is Hebrew, an Israelite or even a Jew. But, He comes from the line of Judah. We call Him in His second Advent, the Lion of Judah.

I believe the NT is clear that the New Covenant that was once offered to them and was then offered to the Gentiles is the same Covenant. Call it whatever you like; adoption or a grafting into their tree, it's still the same tree. Plus, although I don't believe exclusively in election, election does have an important role in all of this.

 

[Drew]

Jesus is Israel,..........

While I have not read anything else here, this statement caught my.

I think that indeed Jesus indeed takes on the role Israel - He is effectively "Israel rolled up into one person. He bears Israel's judgement and he fulfills Israel's covenantal destiny.

The "Jesus is Israel" has such great explanatory power, I am indeed convinced it is true. I hope to take this further later (either in this thread or another).

 

[Tomlane]

One of the grossest errors denominations have made is confusing the convent Israel was under with the mystery that is the church Ephesians 5:32 and they confuse the two as being one. When in reality God has made both Jew and Gentile a new creation in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17 and that places the new creation as living stones 2 Peter 2:5 in the spiritual house or body that Christ is building in this present dispensation. We all under the Abrahamic Covenant until the age of the Gentile had been completed.

If people would replace covenant with the word DISPENSATION as Paul has done concering the church that would clear up a lot of confusion but man having a carnal mind won't hear of it unless they they let the Holy Spirit teach them.

God is building only one church where as man's counterfeit churches has over 38,000 denominations. Acts 2:47

1 Corinthians 11:19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Tomlane

 

[Vic C.]

If people would replace covenant with the word DISPENSATION as Paul has done concering the church that would clear up a lot of confusion but man having a carnal mind won't hear of it unless they they let the Holy Spirit teach them.

Please be careful Tom, you are insinuating that you and not others are Spirit-guided. We're not as confused as you are led to believe. Also, there's no need to replace one word with another. Above all others, it was Jesus who defined the covenants for us. The way you are using the word dispensation above actually makes it and covenant interchangeable.

God is building only one church where as man's counterfeit churches has over 38,000 denominations. Acts 2:47

Please do not let your contempt for denominations taint your posts. This doesn't go over very well with the Staff and most the members. As I see it, the extreme nondenominationals have caused the most division in the body over recent years. They want to discard with most of all that is sacred and replace it with their own personal interpretations. Don't fret it, you can't help it, it's what Man does. Dominion of scripture has turned into domination and ownership.

 

[RND]

One of the grossest errors denominations have made is confusing the convent Israel was under with the mystery that is the church Ephesians 5:32 and they confuse the two as being one. When in reality God has made both Jew and Gentile a new creation in Christ 2 Corinthians 5:17 and that places the new creation as living stones 2 Peter 2:5 in the spiritual house or body that Christ is building in this present dispensation. We all under the Abrahamic Covenant until the age of the Gentile had been completed.

If people would replace covenant with the word DISPENSATION as Paul has done concering the church that would clear up a lot of confusion but man having a carnal mind won't hear of it unless they they let the Holy Spirit teach them.

God is building only one church where as man's counterfeit churches has over 38,000 denominations. Acts 2:47

1 Corinthians 11:19  For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Tomlane

The New Covenant was only promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

 

[Vic C.]

The New Covenant was only promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Hello, Please provide Scripture that proves without shadow of a doubt that the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah. That means, don't forsake NT verses and passages in lieu of only OT scripture.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Tomlane]

The New Covenant was only promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

RND, you are correct, that is why I stated the church age is a dispensation and we are under the Abrahamic covenant God made with Abram for both Jew and Gentile.

Tomlane

 

[Vic C.]

I'll be waiting for that Scripture. I have time. I have until I die or until the Return of my Master, whichever comes first. :D We'll accept it from either one of you, or both of you, we don't care. :P

 

[RND]

The New Covenant was only promised to the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Hello, Please provide Scripture that proves without shadow of a doubt that the New Covenant is only for Israel and Judah. That means, don't forsake NT verses and passages in lieu of only OT scripture.

Thanks in advance.

You are most welcome in advance Vic! How about two verses and a study? Wow! Today's your lucky day! "Party on Wayne!"

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Hbr 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL