The NT insists that you must obey Jesus to gain eternal life!

[John Zain]

There are multitudes of warning passages that do not blatantly warn of losing eternal life.
Here is one of my favorites:

Matt 7:24-27 • “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them,
I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: and the rain
descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house;
and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them,
will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: and the rain descended,
the floods came,and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
“The difference between a true Christian and a false Christian cannot easily be seen …
If our greatest desire is to know Christ and to be like Him, then we are building our
house on the rock … The true Christian is the one who knows Christ and obeys Him.
He hears the words of Christ and puts them into practice (Matt 7:24).
To know Christ is to love Christ. To love Christ is to obey Christ.
He is the one who builds his house upon the rock.”
… The Applied New Testament Commentary, Thomas Hale, ChariotVictor Publishing

More verses to do with obeying Jesus

Heb 5:9 • “And after being perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.”
“It was through His obedience that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation.
In the same way, it is through our obedience to Him that we obtain that salvation.
… Both faith and obedience together are necessary for our salvation.
… It is impossible to separate faith and obedience; they are like two blades of a scissors.
… we are saved through obedience to Christ is the same as saying that
we are saved through faith in Christ” (see Reference above)

Luke 8:21 • “My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it.”
Luke 11:28 • “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

John 14:15 • “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”
John 14:21 • “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me.”
John 14:23 • “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word …”
John 15:14 • “You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.”

Rom 6:16-19 • “Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves toobey, you are
that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sinleadingto death, or of obedience leadingto
righteousness? … so now present your membersasslaves ofrighteousness for holiness.”
In Romans 6:15-23, Paul is very tactfully saying:
“You had better be slaves of obedience, instead slaves of sin ... or face eternal death!”

Heb 3:17-18 • “Now with whom was He angry forty years?Was itnot with those who sinned,
whose corpses fell in the wilderness?And to whom did He swear that they would not
enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?”

James 1:21-22 • “… receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to
save your souls. But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.”
“The word of God has been planted in us. We need to believe it, accept it, study it, nurture it.
If God’s word grows within us, it will save us. However, if we allow God’s word within us to die,
it will not save us (see Mark 4:14-20).” (see Reference above)
This last part is what the Parable of the Sower is teaching!

1 Pet 1:22 • “Since you have purified your souls inobeying the truth through the Spirit …”
IMO, the Spirit told them to obey the gospel and Christ’s commands.

1 John 5:2-3 • “By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and
keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments.”

1 John 3:24 • “Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him.”

Warning: put your trust only in the Scriptures and the precious Holy Spirit.

 

[Obadiah]

I would then ask you some questions in light of what you have said above.

First; Will YOU gain eternal life?

So if you believe you will gain eternal life, my second question would be; Are you a perfect person never having sinned, and have you always been perfect? If you answer this keep in mind the entirety of scripture. You have taken the stand that we must obey everything Jesus said in order to have eternal life. Jesus said "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48) If you are not perfect, you have not done everything Jesus said, and therefore by your own statement (if you were correct) you would not gain eternal life.

My third question would be; If you claim that you ARE perfect as Jesus commanded, can I therefore gather that you do not believe the scripture that says "None is righteous, no, not one" (Rom 3:10)?

 

[turnorburn]

How does one obtain eternal life is it a reward or is it a gift, if its a reward you will have to work for it and work very hard i might add, if its a gift then its free no strings attached because a gift ceases being a gift if you have to work for it, at least that's the way i learned it

tob

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You see the problem here is the church is taught to automatically hear John's argument as 'works salvation', meaning you earn your own salvation by what you do.

What the church is not taught is that faith in Christ (that which does justify, and thus save a person) leaves a distinct footprint such that if your 'faith' does not leave that footprint you have a 'faith' that can not save you. This is a very clear Biblical teaching. It's not a works salvation teaching. It's the teaching that the faith that saves can be seen in what it does...or else it's not faith that can save.

Ultimately, a lack of works is a lack of faith. That is why works must accompany a confession of faith for that faith to be able to save.

 

[turnorburn]

I forgot to include chapter and verse when making that statement..

sorry..

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

tob

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

James 2:18;
"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds".

When we walk with the Holy Spirit, we will have a desire to do things that serve God.
I'm not talking about being an usher at church or driving the church van.

I'm talking about your desire to pray to God and have communion with Him.
Your desire to study His Word and let it fill your life.
Then you will have a desire to serve one another in love, the love that John is talking about in his letters.

This is how we become a slave of obedience rather than a slave of sin.

 

[John Zain]

Are you a perfect person never having sinned, and have you always been perfect?
If you answer this keep in mind the entirety of scripture.

I believe this will answer your questions ...

It's okay, and even expected, that you will sin occasionally.
And you can take care of the situation, i.e. you can maintain your righteousness...

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:7-10)

Throughout the whole Bible ... sinners are unrighteous! ... obedient believers are righteous!

 

[gr8grace]

In the end of it all, it really is Philippians 2:12

Eph 2:8~~For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Philippians 2:12~~So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

We should personally thank God that He did respond to our faith and work out our own salvation. Living this way will produce a life that does the will of God and the Plan of God is fulfilled in our lives(It does not produce judgement or "fruit" inspectors). Thus producing "works" and "fruit" that are DIVINE good. And those are the works that God rewards and Blesses......And uses for His purposes. Which maybe to lovingly help or correct or encourage other Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe this will answer your questions ...

It's okay, and even expected, that you will sin occasionally.
And you can take care of the situation, i.e. you can maintain your righteousness...
"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
If we confess (repent of) our sins, He is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." (1 John 1:7-10)

Throughout the whole Bible ... sinners are unrighteous! ... obedient believers are righteous!

That is the right answer.

I don't know how the necessity of obedience in order for faith to save means I have to now somehow be perfect.

The point is, the obedient believer is covered by the blood of Christ as he continues to trust in and seek the forgiveness of God when he does err.

 

[John Zain]

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If you … “love the Lord your God with all your heart,
with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength”,
then … “His commandments are not burdensome”.

Don’t forget, Jesus said: “If you love Me, keep My commandments”

Ref: Mark 12:30, 1 John 5:3, John 14:15

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[Tristan]

I'd like to lay out some scripture for you to read that I believe addresses this:

"For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." -Romans 3:28 ESV (all verses are ESV)

"For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression." -Romans 4:13-15

"O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”?" -Galatians 3:1-6

Romans actually goes further than this, but it's the start. The whole purpose of Jesus' death was our salvation, which is accepted in faith, not by works. We accept him by faith, and then the Holy Spirit enters us and we are changed (and therefore uphold the Law more naturally). The Lord cares about what's on the inside because what's on the outside remains imperfect as long as we live here on Earth. I like to illustrate this from Matthew.

"“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift." -Matthew 5:21-24

"“You have heard that it was said, i‘You shall not commit adultery.’28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:27+28

Jesus makes it clear that it's not the actions that matter quite so much as why you do them. As Paul said in Titus 1:15: "To the pure all things are pure." Nobody filled with the Holy Spirit is going to commit murder, because the thought doesn't even enter their mind.

 

[John Zain]

The whole purpose of Jesus' death was our salvation, which is accepted in faith, not by works. We accept him by faith, and then the Holy Spirit enters us and we are changed (and therefore uphold the Law more naturally). The Lord cares about what's on the inside because what's on the outside remains imperfect as long as we live here on Earth.

Jesus makes it clear that it's not the actions that matter quite so much as why you do them. As Paul said in Titus 1:15: "To the pure all things are pure." Nobody filled with the Holy Spirit is going to commit murder, because the thought doesn't even enter their mind.

Greetings, and welcome!

IMO, we accept Him because He first gave us His free gift of grace-faith.
But, true saving faith is demonstrated and proven by obedience.
And this in itself disproves OSAS.

All of the many dozens of warnings are for this purpose:
to make sure the elect are on board with God's plan,
i.e. the elect WILL respond properly.
That's why they were elected in the first place!

 

[Sparkey]

Jesus makes it clear that it's not the actions that matter quite so much as why you do them. As Paul said in Titus 1:15: "To the pure all things are pure." Nobody filled with the Holy Spirit is going to commit murder, because the thought doesn't even enter their mind.

Maybe I am not understanding the intent of your words here. We shall all be judged. Every thought, every word and each and every act.

For instance, if you walked up to me and my friend and you smacked her in the face in my presence? I would not stop to inquire why. Mine is the right to reply with sufficient force to stave off any further attack on your part and that (protecting and defending a friend) is an act that I would indeed consider.

 

[Tristan]

Obedience can be superficial. It is entirely possible to do what is right all for the wrong reasons. Paul is very clear that righteousness is through faith and through the blood of Jesus. We are not saved through our actions, we are saved through our faith. Let me elaborate:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." -Romans 6:1-4 ESV

There are little clues all over Paul's letters. If we are under grace, we will not continue to live in sin and willfully sin.

"Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." -Romans 7:24 ESV

What I'm trying to get at is that sin starts in the mind, it is not in the actions. I wouldn't go up and smack your friend in the face, because one filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't even consider such an action, let alone do it. That's what I believe Jesus was meaning in Matthew. If you focus first on what is in the heart, the body will follow.

"For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." -Romans 8:5-11 ESV

That section is the crux of my beliefs surrounding salvation. Salvation is the free gift through the life and death of Jesus. When you accept his death as atonement for your sins, you receive the Holy Spirit and that is what saves you. Once you have the Holy Spirit, your mind is no longer set on the flesh (which is sin and death) but instead on God. You will fulfill God's law through the Holy Spirit, but it starts in the mind and with the Holy Spirit.

 

[John Zain]

Paul is very clear that righteousness is through faith and through the blood of Jesus. We are not saved through our actions, we are saved through our faith. Let me elaborate:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life." -Romans 6:1-4 ESV

There are little clues all over Paul's letters. If we are under grace, we will not continue to live in sin and willfully sin.

Your blue is so correct.
But, I doubt that you "see" Paul's real intent as he continues on in Romans 6:15-23.
E.G. he very tactfully tells them that their salvation depends on them NOT being slaves of sin.
He is NOT explaining to them the end of unbelievers, correct?
He is warning them to actually BE slaves of God, obedience, and righteousness!
I.E. these people are NOT under grace because they are sinning like they are slaves of sin.

 

[Tristan]

But the vessel for this obedience is the Holy Spirit. It starts in the mind. Without the grace through Jesus, we are still slaves of sin.

"But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code." -Romans 7:6 ESV

"Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin." -Romans 7:25 ESV

"For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin,3 he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit." -Romans 8:3-5 ESV

I'm sure you and I mostly agree, but there is just one point I'm trying to get across. We will never be able to live in perfect righteousness through our actions. Our bodies (the flesh) remain sinful, but through the Holy Spirit we set our minds on the will of God which is manifest in the Holy Spirit.

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." -Romans 10:5-10 ESV

 

[John Zain]

I'm sure you and I mostly agree, but there is just one point I'm trying to get across. We will never be able to live in perfect righteousness through our actions. Our bodies (the flesh) remain sinful, but through the Holy Spirit we set our minds on the will of God which is manifest in the Holy Spirit.

Who is "we"?
You're talking theoretical ... I'm talking practical.
And so was Paul in Rom 6:15-23 when he warned them to stop being slaves of sin!

 

[Tristan]

We = Everyone. A broad statement about anyone who is saved. That doesn't address anything.

Practically if we focus on loving others, were are fulfilling God's will. Read Romans 7:25 again. Our bodies continue to serve sin. That isn't going to change. It doesn't save you to do what is right. God didn't say in John 3:16 that 'whosoever obeys all the rules' will get eternal life. It is all who believe. That is a process through the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't make it right to do evil. It is just that because we will inevitably do evil whether we wish it or not, we are still under grace. Doing right is not the condition for salvation because then none of us would get it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm amazed at how so many people instantly hear John's argument as an argument for a works based salvation. This happens because the church has been so utterly indoctrinated with this doctrine of salvation that says salvation is so utterly gracious and unmerited that you can continue in your sins and still expect to be saved on the Day of Judgment. In effect turning the grace of God into a license to sin. The exact thing the Bible warns us not to do.

 

[Sparkey]

I'm sure you and I mostly agree, but there is just one point I'm trying to get across. We will never be able to live in perfect righteousness through our actions. Our bodies (the flesh) remain sinful, but through the Holy Spirit we set our minds on the will of God which is manifest in the Holy Spirit.

"For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." -Romans 10:5-10 ESV

There are some who may come to say that the Promise of God is empty for us until heaven; we will never be truly cleansed and purged of un-right acts while living here on earth.

Tristan, what would you say to those who wanted to convince you of this, please?

~Sparrow