The NT insists that you must obey Jesus to gain eternal life!

[John Zain]

I'm amazed at how so many people instantly hear John's argument as an argument for a works based salvation. This happens because the church has been so utterly indoctrinated with this doctrine of salvation that says salvation is so utterly gracious and unmerited that you can continue in your sins and still expect to be saved on the Day of Judgment. In effect turning the grace of God into a license to sin. The exact thing the Bible warns us not to do.

And there have been several attempts to rationalize their way out of the warnings.

An old one, now seemingly abandoned, is they are only for the purpose of rewards.

My own is: they are only for the elect, to ensure they will heed them unto being fully sanctified.
(God has seen who does this ... this is why they were elected before the foundation of the world.)
But, then they would be lies ... since some of the warnings concern losing eternal life.

I wish to post a thread about my total view on this shortly.

 

[Tristan]

On this Earth we will always be sinful until the Lord comes again. I think we all mostly agree already.

 

[John Zain]

On this Earth we will always be sinful until the Lord comes again. I think we all mostly agree already.

Sure, but why aren't thou rejoicing over the Promise in post #7?
Perhaps you don't believe it?

 

[Tristan]

Because we are still human and still sinful. We don't change until Jesus returns again.

"I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed." -1 Corinthians 15:50-52

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain." -1 Corinthians 15:56-58

Our labour is not in vain because when Jesus comes again we will all be changed and sin will be banished forever. THAT is what I look forward to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The issue is about being a slave to the sin we will have to deal with to the end of our lives.

Paul says slavery to sin is the result of purposely choosing to live in sin, effectively rejecting the forgiveness of God. He also says slaves have no part in the inheritance.

It's important to see that perfection is not what John is advocating. A mindset fastened on Christ is what he is advocating. That means rushing back to the forgiveness of God in Christ when we fail, and not accepting our failures as 'that's just the way it is in this life' and continue along in that sin, not seeking the forgiveness of God, and thinking that somehow the grace of God covers it anyway. For the sincere Christian that might mean seeking that forgiveness and repenting of the sinful behavior more than one time in one day.

Perfection is simply not the argument here. But that is how the argument is instantly heard by the church today.

 

[John Zain]

Paul says slavery to sin is the result of purposely choosing to live in sin, effectively rejecting
the forgiveness of God. He also says slaves have no part in the inheritance.

If you are indeed referring to Romans 6:15-23, many BRAVOs!
For you are the ONLY one I have come across in the Christian forums ...
who sees and admits exactly what Paul is warning the Romans about in this passage.

People prefer to think he is just teaching them:
since you are BACs, you are slaves to God, to obedience, to righteousness.

In fact, they are more than able to be these things (PTL),
but, in fact, they are actually living the lives of being slaves of sin ... still.
And 3 times in the 9 verses, he warns that sin results in eternal death.

Laodicean churches, wake up!

 

[Sparkey]

On this Earth we will always be sinful until the Lord comes again. I think we all mostly agree already.

When we are told to run the race with the idea of crossing the finish line we are expected to understand what that actually means.

Sometimes it's difficult to live up to expectations. But with God? What can be called "impossible"? I honestly believe that He provides for all even those, who at this time, are unable to hear Him.

 

[John Zain]

When we are told to run the race with the idea of crossing the finish line
we are expected to understand what that actually means.
Sometimes it's difficult to live up to expectations. But with God? What can be called "impossible"?
I honestly believe that He provides for all even those, who at this time, are unable to hear Him.

Do you not believe that some are especially elected before the foundation of the world?
And, do you not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and heaven?

 

[Tristan]

Do you not believe that some are especially elected before the foundation of the world?
And, do you not believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father and heaven?

No and yes...but not in the way you're accustomed to.

There is no predestination, only foreknowledge. God knows the end from the beginning, but he does not force anyone to do anything. He just accommodates for what he knows is coming. The elect are not "decided" from the foundation of the world. They are known from the foundation of the world though. Everyone has the possibility of being saved. Everyone.

I have a few questions for you. Is God just God of the Christian, and is the only way to God the way that we know? If God is the author of the universe, God of everything and everybody, then how can anyone say that some people are outside of God’s providence? Just because you and I cannot account for the religions of other people does not mean that the God whom we worship cannot.

I'd like to direct you back to the parable of the workers in the vineyard:

"Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’16 So the last will be first, and the first last." -Matthew 20:15+16

What will happen in the order of things if people either don’t get what they deserve, or, in this case, get more than they deserve? The moment we assume that God's grace is too little for people, we are putting ourselves in the place of God...which is precisely what sin is! Karl Barth, a famous German theologian reminds us of not only the greatness of God but also the “otherness” of God, which means that when we presume to speak about God at all we should do so at a distance and with the realization that we cannot speak of God as simply an immense version of ourselves. When we speak of God we do not speak boastfully or competitively, or in the sense that we know all we need to know, but we can speak hopefully and in faith that the amplitude of God is greater than our capacity to imagine or experience.

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." -Romans 2:14-16

My beliefs are heavily influenced by Augustine. The real battle is in the heart, and God is the ultimate judge. I leave it to him to decide those who are saved and those who aren't, but I will not exclude anyone from salvation by their beliefs.