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The Olivet Discourse, take 2

RandyK

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Hosea 9.
10 “When I found Israel,
it was like finding grapes in the desert;
when I saw your ancestors,
it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree.
But when they came to Baal Peor,
they consecrated themselves to that shameful idol
and became as vile as the thing they loved.
11 Ephraim’s glory will fly away like a bird—
no birth, no pregnancy, no conception.
12 Even if they rear children,
I will bereave them of every one.
Woe to them
when I turn away from them!


For years Dispensationalism, which has ruled as an eschatology in America, told me that Israel was the "fig tree" that was predicted in the Olivet Discourse to be reborn as a State in modern times. It was, they said, a predicted sign of the soon Rapture of the Church, before the 2nd Coming of Christ.

I do believe that the "fig tree" can represent Israel, if the context warrants it. But does the context warrant it in the case of the Olivet Discourse?

We know that around this time Jesus had depicted Israel as a failing fig tree. But in the Olivet Discourse, the "fig tree" appears to be bearing leaves and about to bear fruit. Does this indicate that Israel will not fail, but will be reborn as a state before the coming of Christ?

I don't think so--at least not with respect to the nation of Israel. Let's look at it more carefully...

Matt 24.1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”....
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


Please note that Jesus had said that the temple was to be obliterated, and when asked when this would take place he indicated it would be in their generation. So this is not a positive development--this is a negative development--the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. How then can the "fig tree" be said to be producing leaves?"

In context Jesus explains that "all these things," namely the things he had just indicated were precursors of this event, would happen in the generation of his Disciples. What were these things? They were "birth pain" signs, which is a very negative thing for a pregnant woman about to give birth.

It consisted of the signs of imminent warfare, which would come through the Roman Army. It was the sign of God's displeasure with that time and place, with famines and earthquakes occurring. It was the sign of Israel's degeneracy, apostasy, and behavior leading to their judgment, including the persecution of Jewish believers.

These signs were negative, but what about the "fig tree" bearing leaves and about to bear fruit? Didn't this mean that the pregnant woman, ie Israel, was about to bear children?

No, it was a still birth or an aborted birth. Israel was indeed at the very cusp of achieving this with Messiah being in their midst. But instead of accepting him, they crucified him, bringing upon themselves judgment in that very generation. It was delayed out of God's patience and mercy, allowing the Gospel to be preached for an entire generation. But judgment certainly came in spades.

The "fig tree" bore leaves indicating that Israel could be saved. But the fruit never came, except by the disciples of Jesus. The Church was in fact born. But Israel went into an age-long dispersion called the Jewish Diaspora.

So the "fig tree" in the Olivet Discourse did *not* refer to Israel's modern rebirth as a political state. All of this took place in Christ's generation, leading to Israel's "great tribulation," aka the Jewish Diaspora.

But wasn't this sign of Israel's judgment supposed to be related to Christ's 2nd Coming? It was Jesus' answer to those who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. They weren't even close to ready. Instead they would be judged, making time for the Gentiles to obtain the Kingdom for themselves. Israel's Salvation would be delayed for a couple thousand years!

I've worked on this for a lifetime, because there have been so many conflicting interpretations. I hope my interpretation helps in clearing up some of the confusion.
 
It was Jesus' answer to those who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom.
Quick short question: I don't remember anyone in Scripture (nor today?)
who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. Can you identify one ? I do believe it was or is entirely possible someone might have believed this, but just don't remember one.
 
Hosea Chapter 9 is all about the punishing that came from God against Israel for their disobedience turning away from God going after other gods.

There is no difference today as many have turned to their own gods of greed and lust and many that follow a different gospel then what God has already had the Prophets and Apostles to write for our learning.

It doesn't matter what Dispensationalism or any other "ism", but that which Christ has already showed us if we would read the scriptures for what He has already had written.

In the Olivet Discourse the disciples asked Jesus three questions, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Jesus answered their questions in the rest of Matthew 24 about the Temple being destroyed and everything that must come first before His return on the last day and what to watch for in His return as we prepare ourselves to be caught up to Him when He returns with the clouds and we are then caught up to meet Him in the air.

Not all of Israel are of Israel, just like not all who claim to be a Christian are God's own. "Take heed that no man deceive you."
 
Quick short question: I don't remember anyone in Scripture (nor today?)
who thought Israel was ready for Jesus' Kingdom. Can you identify one ? I do believe it was or is entirely possible someone might have believed this, but just don't remember one.
Sure, here's the passage I had in mind...

Luke 19.11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.

A number of people who believed Jesus was Messiah saw him approach Jerusalem, the seat of David's throne, and thought he was about to set up the promised Messianic Kingdom, which would bring an end to Israel's oppression by the nations. But Jesus fully understood that not only were the nations hostile to him, but Israel, as a whole, would be hostile to him as well.

Therefore, Jesus preached that the Kingdom was relatively near, ie accessible for entry into it and close in judging men. But it would not come before he was put to death, along with many of his followers. And Israel would go into a long period of dispersion we now call the "Jewish Diaspora."

At the end of this period Jesus later said he would return and establish the promised Messianic Kingdom. But not all who though they would inherit it would inherit it. It was only for those who truly followed him.
 
Is there a Scripture where Jesus tells the apostles-His disciples "you are already in the kingdom, start acting (living) like it?"
 
Is there a Scripture where Jesus tells the apostles-His disciples "you are already in the kingdom, start acting (living) like it?"
There are lots of Amillennial-type Scriptures. I'm not Amill, but I admit that there are many passages that appear to support that position. For example...

Luke 17.20 Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

When Jesus told parables of the Kingdom he often distinguished between the good subjects of the Kingdom and those who were trying to appropriate the Kingdom, which at that time was Israel, by force.

Matt 11.11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

For Jesus, the people of God's Kingdom were those on earth who presently understood the things of God, and as such, lived in proper relation to God, doing works that please Him.

Matt 5.19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matt 13.38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one.


Jesus spoke of the Kingdom not just in a future sense but also in the sense that people already belong to the Kingdom whose Kingdom is already presently having an impact upon the world.

Matt 12.28 But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
 
oh no, no no no. Jesus Words posted previously were not at all about amil, never supporting it, ever. That amil is a tragic doctrine that has been associated with abominable actions, teachings, and falsehoods , inherently and otherwise for thousands of years, --- btw, on purpose. Willful. Rebellious, opposed to truth.
 
oh no, no no no. Jesus Words posted previously were not at all about amil, never supporting it, ever. That amil is a tragic doctrine that has been associated with abominable actions, teachings, and falsehoods , inherently and otherwise for thousands of years, --- btw, on purpose. Willful. Rebellious, opposed to truth.
I agree with you that Amill is wrong. But I will never accuse my Amill brethren of deliberate corruption--at least it is just the product of guesswork, becoming tradition, and then being raised in it.

I was raised in it, and thinking it was biblical I likely would've defended it had I not converted, early on, to Premill. Starting fights with fellow believers over such minor points is not something I wish to do. Speculating about the future needs to take a back seat to living right today.
 
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