The order of Revelation.

[glorydaz]

I'm sure it's been done on this forum, but I haven't seen it, so thought I'd see what you all thought of the order in which Revelation is written. It makes no sense when read straight through, but when it's considered as John must have viewed it...almost like a series of short documentaries, each ending with the Day of the Lord, it comes together. He describes a series of events, and then the DOL, then more events, and the DOL, a series of events, and the DOL. He does this six different times.

The breaks occur at Rev. 6:12-17, Rev. 11:15-19, Rev. 14:14-20, Rev. 16:17-21, Rev. 19:11-21, and Rev. 20:9-15. I'm going to go ahead and list them out...I found it very interesting. At least it's something to consider. I can't underline all the similarities because I run off the page, but you'll see the voices, earthquakes, etc.

12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

 

[glorydaz]

14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

17And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. 18And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[researcher]

Who is the DOL or wrath of the Lamb for? Everyone, or just some people?

 

[glorydaz]

And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. 17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[glorydaz]

Who is the DOL or wrath of the Lamb for? Everyone, or just some people?

Everyone, but the bride is taken just before the vials are poured out.
It looks like each of these sections come right up to the pouring out of God's wrath and some overlap into the wrath....like the harvest, for instance. Looks to me like the Bride is gathered and the wrath is poured out. As the grapes are brought into the barn, the tares are gathered and burned. Seems like each of these sections is the culmination of it all.

 

[glorydaz]

It's interesting because this one appears out of sequence. Notice the seven vials are still full of the seven plagues. John is taken by the angel to see the bride...who is already in the Holy City. It's as if it's meant to stand out. If you take it and put it in order, it would have to go before the vials are poured out, so the bride definately misses the wrath of God.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

 

[glorydaz]

It's interesting because this one appears out of sequence. Notice the seven vials are still full of the seven plagues. John is taken by the angel to see the bride...who is already in the Holy City. It's as if it's meant to stand out. If you take it and put it in order, it would have to go before the vials are poured out, so the bride definately misses the wrath of God.

And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Also, the mystery of God and the little book happen just prior to the wrath being poured out in chapter 11. When the seventh angel shall begin to sound the mystery of God should be finished. That sounds like the bride will be gathered in the twinkling of an eye. Then the vials are poured out. Sounds good to me, anyway.
[quote="Rev. 10:7-11":1fqxv4wd]7But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. 8And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. 9And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. 10And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.

[/quote:1fqxv4wd]

 

[veteran]

I agree glorydaze, not all Revelation events occur in the order they're written.

We can know the last 3 trumpets do occur in order though, because our Lord gave 3 'woe' periods that go with each of those last 3 trumpets. That stands out as a special Message of warning. So from the end of Rev.8 through to Rev.11:15 with the 7th trumpet, all events are given in chronological order. Rev.10 is parenthetical, a temporary jump forward in time, and then back to what John was called to do.

Concerning the time of our gathering, look at this again...

Rev 15:1-8
1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, "Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? for Thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before Thee; for Thy judgments are made manifest."
5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, Who liveth for ever and ever.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
(KJV)

The order there is...
1. John sees seven angels that have the seven last plagues
2. then John sees the saints that had gotten the victory over the beast, his image, his mark, his name, etc., and they sing the song of Moses and the song of The Lamb.
3. then the seven angels are given the seven vials to be poured out upon the earth.

If that means a rapture of the saints prior to the seven vials being poured out, then it would have to include those who got the victory over the beast, his image and mark, etc. That ALSO would have to be AFTER the 7th trumpet, which is when Christ gathers His saints to Him.

What I see is not a rapture, but only the saints who die during the great tribulation for refusing to bow to the dragon and his image, and by refusing to take his mark, i.e., only those faithful unto death. It's pointing to these...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's servants are to be delivered up to give His Testimony during the coming great tribulation. They represent a group of election that cannot be decieved nor turned, and are among those of Christ's servants that will be killed like their fellowservants throughout history. That's how they wind up in the heavenly even BEFORE the seven vials are poured out, and before the 7th trumpet has sounded to gather the rest of the saints that remain on earth to the end of the tribulation.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks Veteran, it's been awhile since I've looked at this, and now you've gotten me all excited again.
I'm looking at all those points you brought up and will get right back to you. I hadn't thought about Rev. 10 being a parenthesis.

 

[glorydaz]

What I see is not a rapture, but only the saints who die during the great tribulation for refusing to bow to the dragon and his image, and by refusing to take his mark, i.e., only those faithful unto death. It's pointing to these...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
(KJV)

Some of Christ's servants are to be delivered up to give His Testimony during the coming great tribulation. They represent a group of election that cannot be decieved nor turned, and are among those of Christ's servants that will be killed like their fellowservants throughout history. That's how they wind up in the heavenly even BEFORE the seven vials are poured out, and before the 7th trumpet has sounded to gather the rest of the saints that remain on earth to the end of the tribulation.

Wow, I had never made that connection before from Rev. 6.
Now I'm going to have to dust it off and rework my chart.

 

[veteran]

Thanks Veteran, it's been awhile since I've looked at this, and now you've gotten me all excited again.
I'm looking at all those points you brought up and will get right back to you. I hadn't thought about Rev. 10 being a parenthesis.

Yeah, by parenthetical, I mean a temporary break in the subject order flow. When the seven thunders had uttered their voices John was about to write, but he was told not to. Then we're told when the seventh angel sounds it's all over. What comes first, lightning, or thunder? Lightning strikes first, and then the sound of thunder. So the seven thunders represent completeness, after the fact. And our Lord did say His coming would be like lightning striking from east to west in Matt.24.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks Veteran, it's been awhile since I've looked at this, and now you've gotten me all excited again.
I'm looking at all those points you brought up and will get right back to you. I hadn't thought about Rev. 10 being a parenthesis.

Yeah, by parenthetical, I mean a temporary break in the subject order flow. When the seven thunders had uttered their voices John was about to write, but he was told not to. Then we're told when the seventh angel sounds it's all over. What comes first, lightning, or thunder? Lightning strikes first, and then the sound of thunder. So the seven thunders represent completeness, after the fact. And our Lord did say His coming would be like lightning striking from east to west in Matt.24.

Thunder and lightening...now why didn't I ever think of that? Drat.

So what do you think of the mystery of God?
It's always been something to do with the Kingdom.
Do you think it's the gathering of the bride...but out of order?

 

[veteran]

So what do you think of the mystery of God?
It's always been something to do with the Kingdom.
Do you think it's the gathering of the bride...but out of order?

Well, the idea of what God gave His OT prophets to write down is linked with that "mystery of God" idea in Rev.10:7. So what's our Lord Jesus saying with that pointer? Go back and study the prophecies they were given to write down, for it ties in with events to occur on earth all the way down to the 7th angel sounding.

God's Kingdom is not like the kingdoms of men. The main problem that caused this time today is how the devil tried to establish a copy of God's true Kingdom, and that attempt has continued in this world, and will continue to the last beast kingdom when Christ's bodily return happens to destroy it.

I see our gathering to Christ happenning on the "last trump" of 1 Cor.15, which is also the "trump of God" given in 1 Thess.4:16. All at the same bodily coming of Christ on the 7th angel sounding. Isaiah 25 gives a bit more detail on that, which is where Paul was teaching from in 1 Cor.15 about the change at a twinkling of an eye. That's when Christ's bride (Church) will be gathered to Him. That's when there will be a separation between His faithful saints and the wicked. That separation is to continue all through His "thousand years" reign with His elect (Rev.20). It's about what He called "the outer darkness", outside the gates of the Holy City (Matt.8:12; Rev.22:14-15).

 

[Vic C.]

When someone talks of the seventh (angelic) trump and the "last Tuump" (trump of God), I like to post this:

The Last Trump

"We cannot go to the Book of Revelation and say that the voice of the seventh angel (Revelation 11:15) is the last trump. In the first century, the last trump (shofar) meant a specific day in the year. In Judaism, there are three trumpets (shofarim) that have a name. They are the first trump, the last trump, and the great trump. Each one of these trumpets indicates a specific day in the Jewish year. The first trump is blown on the Feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) (Exodus [Shemot] 19:19). It proclaimed that G-d had betrothed Himself to Israel. The last trump is synonymous with Rosh HaShanah, according to Theodore Gaster in his book, Festivals of the Jewish Year, in his chapter on Rosh HaShanah. Herman Kieval also states the same thing in his book, The High Holy Days (Volume I, Rosh HaShanah, Chapter 5, Footnote 11), in the chapter on the shofar. The great trumpet is blown on Yom Kippur, which will herald the return of the Messiah Yeshua back to earth (Matthew [Mattityahu] 24:31)."

(Hebraic Heritage Ministries, http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2175/)

(Lev 23:24 KJV) Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation.

(Num 29:1 KJV) And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you.

According to Num 10:10, Israel was to blow a trumpet at the beginning of each month. Since the Mosaic festival year was seven months long, the seventh month (Tishri) was the last month for a festival trumpet. This day, the first day of Tishri, which was the start of the Jewish civil year, was known as Rosh haShanah (the Feast of Trumpets or the Day of Trumpets). "The last month in the seven months' series was always sounded on this New Moon Day. This made it the final trumpets' day." (Ernest L. Martin, The Star that Astonished the World, (c)1996, pg 95)

Martin further signifies this day by relying on the work of Theodor Gaster and his book titled "Festivals of the Jewish Year." It is stated that early Jews recognized the Day of Trumpets as a type of memorial day. More than our modern versions of the holiday, it was instead a day that was symbolic of the time "when the dead return to rejoin their descendants at the beginning of the year." Martin also quotes Gaster in saying that this was "the time that became a symbol of the Last Trump." (Martin, pg 96)

(1 Cor 15:52 KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is quite possible that Paul, being Jewish himself and surely knowledgeable of the Jewish feasts and customs, was making a symbolic reference to this time of year -- the Day of Trumpets. "The 'Last Trump' of the early Jews was when the dead were remembered. And to Paul the 'Last Trump' was the time for Jesus' second advent and the resurrection of the dead." (Martin, pg 96).

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

Though I am not a full futurist, I do believe we are gathered before God's final Wrath. I I lean on some to the Prewrath position and it's teachings. I say final because I tend to believe the OT points to more than one DOTL.

 

[veteran]

I understand the importance of what the old Hebrew traditions can symbolize, yet I don't see that tradition of 3 trumpets in any way replacing the 7 trumpet events our Lord Jesus declared in Revelation. Trumpets were also used to mark the order of battle, and not only about feast days. In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul was taking from Isaiah 25 when he taught about the events of the "last trump". That's how we can know the way he was relating it to the event that will end this present world age.

Isa 25:7-9
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.
(KJV)

I also believe Christ will protect His saints through the time of His wrath upon the wicked, much as He protected the OT saints during times of trouble. I do not see us having to be removed off the earth for Him to be able to do that.
.

 

[Vic C.]

Sorry Vet. Mis-communication I suppose. I wasn't suggesting a replacement of any kind. Just an addition of this "Last Trump" that isn't mentioned in Revelation.

I also believe Christ will protect His saints through the time of His wrath upon the wicked, much as He protected the OT saints during times of trouble. I do not see us having to be removed off the earth for Him to be able to do that.

Interesting. For some reason, I thought you believed in a literal harpazo. Rev. 3:10 fits your understanding well then.

 

[veteran]

Sorry Vet. Mis-communication I suppose. I wasn't suggesting a replacement of any kind. Just an addition of this "Last Trump" that isn't mentioned in Revelation.

I also believe Christ will protect His saints through the time of His wrath upon the wicked, much as He protected the OT saints during times of trouble. I do not see us having to be removed off the earth for Him to be able to do that.

Interesting. For some reason, I thought you believed in a literal harpazo. Rev. 3:10 fits your understanding well then.

I do believe in a literal 'harpazo' though, just not how men's traditions describe it. I believe it coincides in conjunction with God's wrath, the main difference being God protects His servants, while the devil's servants experience His wrath. The hot fiery furnace in Dan.3 that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into is a symbol for God's consuming fire that will end this present world, and that's the time of the twinkling of an eye change Paul spoke of. The OT prophets speak of it coming at an instant, so that's why Paul used the twinkling of an eye metaphor. At the blink of the eye, and the heavenly dimension is suddenly revealed to all, with Christ's coming with the asleep saints to gather the saints that remain on earth.

A problem is that the many events that will occur at that instant take up many pages in Holy Writ to describe them all. It's easy to stretch out all the events into a much longer timeframe when reading about it.

The Rev.3:10 verse is about the "strong delusion" timing, the event that causes the great falling away, which is just prior to Christ's return. Those who stay faithful and stay in His Word are kept from that 'temptation', meaning they won't be deceived by the strong delusion event. It's not about escape, it's about knowing what the deception is about. Paul described those deceived like being drunken in the night, and for us to remain sober. Ever been around a bunch of drunks and you were the only one sober? (see 1 Thess.5) And once again, Paul pulled that idea from the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah 28, Isaiah 29, Isaiah 24, etc.

 

[glorydaz]

I do believe in a literal 'harpazo' though, just not how men's traditions describe it. I believe it coincides in conjunction with God's wrath, the main difference being God protects His servants, while the devil's servants experience His wrath. The hot fiery furnace in Dan.3 that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were thrown into is a symbol for God's consuming fire that will end this present world, and that's the time of the twinkling of an eye change Paul spoke of. The OT prophets speak of it coming at an instant, so that's why Paul used the twinkling of an eye metaphor. At the blink of the eye, and the heavenly dimension is suddenly revealed to all, with Christ's coming with the asleep saints to gather the saints that remain on earth.

A problem is that the many events that will occur at that instant take up many pages in Holy Writ to describe them all. It's easy to stretch out all the events into a much longer timeframe when reading about it.

The Rev.3:10 verse is about the "strong delusion" timing, the event that causes the great falling away, which is just prior to Christ's return. Those who stay faithful and stay in His Word are kept from that 'temptation', meaning they won't be deceived by the strong delusion event. It's not about escape, it's about knowing what the deception is about. Paul described those deceived like being drunken in the night, and for us to remain sober. Ever been around a bunch of drunks and you were the only one sober? (see 1 Thess.5) And once again, Paul pulled that idea from the Old Testament prophets, like Isaiah 28, Isaiah 29, Isaiah 24, etc.

That's the way I see it, too, as far as the timing.
The strong delusion drunkeness is another thing I missed.
You're a fount of information, Veteran.

 

[Joshleet]

Hi all,

• There is a very logical explaination as to why events in revelation seem to repeat. There are certian aspects concerning the last days, that few have considered when viewing the events of revelation.

• Once one understands these "aspects", the Book of revelation becomes one of the easiest Books in the Bible to understand. The answer is hiding in plain sight. If any is iterested, I'll share it .

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hi all,

• There is a very logical explaination as to why events in revelation seem to repeat. There are certian aspects concerning the last days, that few have considered when viewing the events of revelation.

• Once one understands these "aspects", the Book of revelation becomes one of the easiest Books in the Bible to understand. The answer is hiding in plain sight. If any is iterested, I'll share it .

Go for it!