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The Problem of Evil

A

AHIMSA

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I'm in first year university, this is an exerpt from one of my essays. It deals with the problem of evil. Basically, how can an all loving and all powerful God allow for Evil? Just wondering what your thoughts would be:

The most basic issue that arises with any philosophic and or logical argument for the existence of both an omnipotent and yet benevolent God, in a world that provides much more evidence to the contrary, is the very fact that his existence as such is always verified, or attempted to be verified, with logic and reason. The basic presupposition is that, by using sequential logic and the basic law of cause and effect, one can reason his existence. It is undeniable that the world is bound by a series of laws. It is not logical to say three plus three equals four, and to say that the earthquake in the south Pacific did not cause a massive tsunami would be to ignore the relationship of cause and effect. Likewise, it is said that if God created human beings who were not capable of choosing wrong, then logically, they could not love him, for they would not be capable of not loving him. This is the basic argument of free will, which postulates that human suffering is the unavoidable consequence of humanity’s ability to choose. It is contended that, if God created humanity in such a way that they would always choose the good, then they would be trapped in a web of predestination and deny the possibility of true love. Firstly, to say that human beings, by their nature, have to make an immoral choice is also a form of pre-destination. Just as a being that would always act correctly is arguably restricted by his own nature, so can humanity, marred by original sin, be considered bound by this same argument. An absolute in either direction, that is to say “humanity must do this†or “must do that†according to his or her nature, is pre-determining their actions. Just as a machine is pre-destined to eventually work down and fail, a mountain to erode, a human to die, so are human beings pre-destined to commit an act of evil. The argument of free will would make more sense if there were certain human beings who would never choose to do wrong, and yet others who did.

However, there are other points of contention with this argument. It is said God can not create human beings with free will who would also have the ability to express love. To say that God could not create “A†,without “B†occurring, is to deny his omnipotence, and is to suggest that God is bound by the relationship of cause and effect and logical sequence, laws which he himself created. If he is truly all-powerful, then surely he would have the ability to resolve apparent contradictions. Therefore, any attempt to justify the presence of evil and retain his omnipotence or benevolence through logical arguments firstly ignores that God is above such constrictions.
However, in anticipation of this argument John Hick, in his essay The Problem of Evil, states that it is certainly possible for God to create beings that are “free from the risks inherent in personal freedom†but argues that, however superior these beings might be they would “constitute a different form of life†and would not be “what we mean by persons†and would, therefore, not be capable of entering into a loving relationship with him. However, this does not completely circumvent the law of cause and effect, for it logically assumes the criteria required to love God is directly linked to our ability to chose to love him.

Secondly, this argument seems to suggest that a perfected being, who will always choose to do good, is not capable of being moral nor immoral. However, and acknowledging the irony in invoking logic, this statement would logically imply that God himself, who always does what is good, is not a moral being. This would further imply that Jesus, who was a human being when on earth, was not capable of loving God for he always chose to do what is right, such a being, according to Hick, lacks moral freedom for it is the mark of the morally free to make a wrong choice. Some would respond that God can not be compared to man, for they are different beings. However, Christian theology continues to interfere.

The basic tenets of traditional Christian theology hold that God is perfect and therefore, can only exist in eternal paradise with those who are likewise. Sin is so abhorrent to him that he can not stand to be in its presence. Thus, as sinful beings, we are separated from God. The solution to this problem, then, is found in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ . However, if one can not compare the characteristics of God, such as his ability to be perfectly righteous, it then seems rather odd that the trait of perfection is the standard which must be met for entrance into heaven. Christians, once in heaven, will no longer be capable of sinning less they be cast out. They will, in a sense, by like God; incapable of doing wrong. One might argue that this further supports the Christian position; that humanity literally needs the divine Christ to be within them. Though true enough, one must keep in mind that the religion contends human beings can not be in the presence of God until they posses some of the qualities which make him God. According to Hick, these godlike beings would “hardly be what we mean by personsâ€Â, but as is now suggested, it is not ‘persons’ that God ever desired to be with him in the first place. The question remains unanswered, why would did God create fallible humans rather than crate these “perfected beings†by which he judges us, and which Jesus himself is described to have been?
 
I posted this arguement so people could specifically respond to what I wrote, not so that I could be refered to a website. Please, confront what I wrote, otherwise you're just telling me that you lack discussion skills.
 
You asked: Just wondering what your thoughts would be.

My thoughts are that you have not carefully thought the issue through. Also, because you do not believe in God nor Christianity, obviously your logic and argument (note... no "e") and discussion about God and Christianity is wrong.

I posted the article so that you could consider the Christian perspective on evil.

:)
 
I think all of us have both good and evil. As far as evil goes I look to the Bible and what God says about it.
In ISAIAH 45:5-7 it says: I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God can and does anything he wants it is all in his hands , its up to people to choose what they know is good from what they know is evil.



Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.
 
And all this makes plenty of sense if one simply 'thinks' rather than feels.

Evil exists and so does good. I don't think that there's anyone that would deny this. Cause and effect?

Let's break this down a bit. Let us redefine the two basic emotions that comprise this 'good' and 'evil'. Can we agree that 'good' is love, and 'evil' is hate?

If so, then I submit this question: What is love and what is hate? Once one begins to understand these two emotional states of 'man', it is at this point another question arises. Where did these two emotions come from. They are NOT a logical evolutionary trait in that they often get in the way of survival.

If they are not evolutionary, then where did they come from?

In nature, that which is 'hated' is hated for completely different reasons than in mankind. A bird doesn't hate anything but it's enemies. In man-kind, hate can be directed towards ANYTHING that impedes mans desire. Anything that hinders mans' desires of self he can choose to hate. Why?
Where does this emotion come from and why does man exhibit it in such a 'different' way than all other life upon this planet?

The same holds true for love. There is NO indication that the vast and broad range in which man is capable of exhibiting love exist anywhere else in nature. Why.

And art. Where did this ability to create, simply for the sake of creation come from?

I offer that these emotions and abilities are nothing more than a mimicking of that which we were 'copied' from. The inherent emotions and abilities that man exhibits were not 'flukes' of evolution, but rather, created features ingrained into the genetics of man. If this wasn't an evolutionary change in genetics, then where did it come from?

And I also would offer, where did this inherent need to understand and define God come from? Why God. Why didn't man, from the beginning just start learning about his environment and be satisfied with the understanding of it. Why create God or gods to try and answer these questions. In other words, Where did this idea of God come from to start with? Most other ideas are much more practical than 'making up' something that has no basis other than imagination. Why is there this ingrained compulsion to worship that which is unseen. Where did this 'idea' come from and why is it inherent in ALL man-kind?

Answer these questions and you will be led to but one conclusion.
 
My thought is this; why do people always blame God for evil?

Is God responsible for Satan's pride (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)?

And who are you to question God's conduct (Job 38:2)?
 
My thoughts are that you have not carefully thought the issue through. Also, because you do not believe in God nor Christianity, obviously your logic and argument (note... no "e") and discussion about God and Christianity is wrong.

Gary,

Then I kindly request you demonstrate where my argument fails, or where my understanding of Christianity is wrong. Logic is irresprctive of whether or not one believes in Christianity. The claim that I am wrong on the basis of me not being Christian is a method typically used by those who can not confront the material placed infront of them. I hope you don't resort to that.
 
AHIMSA said:
This is the basic argument of free will, which postulates that human suffering is the unavoidable consequence of humanity’s ability to choose. It is contended that, if God created humanity in such a way that they would always choose the good, then they would be trapped in a web of predestination and deny the possibility of true love. Firstly, to say that human beings, by their nature, have to make an immoral choice is also a form of pre-destination. Just as a being that would always act correctly is arguably restricted by his own nature, so can humanity, marred by original sin, be considered bound by this same argument.

This is the first problem with your argument. Human suffering is the unavoidable consequence of humanity's ability to choose EVIL.." Not to choose period. If that is the case, then God would have to be solely responsible for evil and inherently evil in Himself. In other words, God would have to be evil without any help from mankind for the evil in man would be based on man's ability to choose of which doesn't exist until God creates man with that power.

This cannot be.

Rather, we see that God was responsible for the POSSIBILITY of evil in that He made man with the power of choice to be able to choose either evil or good. Man, however, is responsible for the ACTUALITY of evil by choosing to do evil.
 
I have shown where your argument fails. That is why I pointed you to the article. It is aimed directly at John Hick's view of evil.

You wanted a view, a comment. You got more than that!

:)
 
AHIMSA said:
Secondly, this argument seems to suggest that a perfected being, who will always choose to do good, is not capable of being moral nor immoral.
Greetings:

You have not explained what it means to be moral or immoral. I think you may be confusing what it means to have "moral freedom" with what it means to be moral. The rest of your paragraph (including the Hicks reference) seems to be about moral freedom. I would counter by saying: There is nothing incoherent about the idea that a being can be moral without having moral freedom.

How do I justify this statement? Well, first I do not necessarily subscribe to the idea that God's character defines what is moral. Have you implicitly assumed this? If "being moral" equals "behaving in a manner that promotes the best interests of others", then an agent can be moral even if they do not have moral freedom. If that agent cannot help but act morally, it is still being moral.

PS: I also think that guibox has made an important comment
 
My basic question is why did God not create infallible beings, like he, rather than fallible human beings whom he knew would make the wrong choice?
 
AHIMSA said:
My basic question is why did God not create infallible beings, like he, rather than fallible human beings whom he knew would make the wrong choice?
Fair question. God wants us to worship and revere Him not out of fear or obligation or even due to some preprogrammed disposition. He wants sincere worship based on faith and love.
 
Fair question. God wants us to worship and revere Him not out of fear or obligation or even due to some preprogrammed disposition. He wants sincere worship based on faith and love.

But Jesus was an infallible being, and he revered God not out of obligation or fear, but from love. Jesus is the example that it is possible for a perfected being to exhibit true love.

Secondly, if falibility is neccessary for love, then how can it be said that God truly loves us? If he does not love us out of obligation, but chooses to do so freely, how can he do so seeing as he is a perfected being?
 
That's like Mormon theology. They say we can become gods. You are saying we should have been created as "gods". What we have to remember is God is not human. He is perfect indeed, which gives Him the ability of agape love, the ability to love unconditionally. We are human and can't begin to comprehend this. We are created beings, He is not. He would have had to give no no other option but to love Him from birth. Alas, we have free will and thus choosing to believe in and love Him, makes our faith sincere, from the heart.

We have our "flesh" to deal with, He does not. Indeed, the spirit is most willing, but the flesh is oh so weak. Every parent would "love" to have their children love them and obey them, no questions asked. But think about it... do parents really want that from their child? Wouldn't it please you to know they loved you out of their own free will? How much more rewarding and enjoyable would that be?

If God created us as perfect as He, we wouldn't need a Savior, He would be creating Himself over and over again. Plus, He wouldn't have the need to say, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant:..."

:angel:
 
Ahimsa,

your article leaves out Satan completely. His will, his influence
and his rights on this earth. He does have rights in mankind,
you know. No? Yes it's a fact. Leaving him out makes your
whole story nothing than a play with words. You can include
the complete cosmos of every and all words, and the possible
combinations thereof. It will not start making any sense without
him. In the true sense of the word. It's an electric-circuit-no-go,
or a intellectual exercise without all essential components.
 
I don't know ANYTHING about the Mormons, but, if we were created 'IN HIS IMAGE' and we are called 'HIS CHILDREN' doesn't this indicate that one day we will be 'more like' God.

Perhaps an answer to much of the question offered is this:

Perhaps we ARE the children of God. Being children, we have much to learn. Perhaps becoming infalible is something that we will aquire with time and much much 'MORE' learning.

And perhaps we had to go through EXACTLY what we have gone through in order to 'get there'.
 
Imagican said:
I don't know ANYTHING about the Mormons, but, if we were created 'IN HIS IMAGE' and we are called 'HIS CHILDREN' doesn't this indicate that one day we will be 'more like' God....
Valid question, I suppose. This would make a nice "sidebar". Take these verses

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


and find verses to further support it.

8-)
 
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