The Prophecies of Daniel

[brakelite]

I have been putting together a study on the prophecies of Daniel, and thought I could share them with this board. Comments and discussion is welcome.

The book of Daniel is the story of two cities, Jerusalem and Babylon. One represents the rule of righteousness, the other of wickedness. One reveals the mystery of godliness, the other the mystery of iniquity. Thus the stories and prophecies of the book illustrate the principles of the warfare that has been going on between Christ and Satan, and their various human instruments, both corporate and individual. This warfare is often manifested to us as a battle between good and evil, right and wrong, truth and error.
The first time we read of these two cities is implied in Genesis 11:9 and Gen.14:18. and the last time is in the Book of Revelation 18:21,21:10. And in one way or another, either figuratively or literally, either physically or spiritually, they both appear right throughout the scriptures.

Daniel 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

"In the latter days" is an idiomatic phrase meaning 'in the future'. It is used in different contexts in Deut. 4:30, Gen.49:1, Num.24:14, Isa.2:2, Hos. 3:5, Ezek. 38:16. Most modern versions therefore translate the phrase as "in time to come", or "in days to come", or "in later days". From the historicist perspective, it can be concluded that the vision reaches from the time of Daniel and stretches far off into the future to the second advent of Christ symbolised by the stone kingdom when all previous kingdoms are destroyed and never again to be found .
Before we begin to focus on the prophecy itself of Daniel 2, I think now would be a good time to put my plug in for historicism, as opposed to futurism and preterism. John 13:19; Matt. 24:33 and Luke 21:28 provides the precedent and direction we must take to interpreting prophecy. We may look back into history, and it is there we see the rock-solid incontrovertible evidence that gives our faith and hopes a sure foundation. Most of prophecy is written in the blood of saints upon the pages of history.Thus the teachings of Jesus Himself supports a continuous view of prophecy. The church age isn't a gap inserted in between two separate Jewish ages, nor is it a gap in prophecy. Just as the metals are joined together and the 4th kingdom is still present at the time of the second coming, so does history verify. SDAs are almost alone within the Christian world that holds to historicism.
Were they the first? Did they invent this approach to sustain certain prophetic interpretations that popular theology rejected? No. Most commentators right from the early church recognised the 7 churches of Revelation 2 and 3 as successive phases of Christianity from the time of John to the consummation of all things.
The 7 seals also were recognised as reflecting successive phases of Christianity from John to the second coming. For example, Ambrose, Bishop of Havilburg writing in the 12 century said, "The white horse typifies the earliest state of spiritual gifts and the rider, Christ, with the bow of evangelical doctrine...the red horse is the next state of the church, red with the blood of martyrdom; from Stephen the protomartyr to the martyrs under Diocletian...the black horse depicts the church's 3rd state, blackened after Constantine's time with heresies...the pale horse signified the church's 4th state; colored with the hue of hypocrisy." He said this state commenced from the beginning of the 5th century. This historicist view of the seals was the usual view of expositors down through the centuries.

The trumpets also were considered an historical overview of the rise and fall of kingdoms from the time of Christ to the future second advent. Scholars such as Daubuz, Mede, Jurieu, along with most all reformation protestants saw the trumpets 1-6 as depicting the desolations and fall of first the western empire of Rome and then the eastern. In 1802 Gulloway, in harmony with many others, viewed the first 4 trumpets as a picture of the Gothic invasions of the west, the 5th and 6th trumpets or the first 2 of the 3 'woes', as depicting the invasions of the Saracens and the Turks in the east.


As I mentioned above, the prophecies of Daniel can be readily understood by using the historicist approach. Futurism and preterism both leave many unanswered questions, many unfulfilled details, and tend to make prophetic interpretation look more like guesswork and wishful thinking rather than the accurate study and strengthening of faith that it can be.
The image of Daniel 2 sets the foundation for every subsequent vision and prophecy from Daniel to Revelation. What God has set down as His word in Daniel 2 cannot be altered to suit one's false theories when it comes to studying Revelation. All subsequent prophecies are to be studied on the principle of 'repeat and enlarge'. That is, once Daniel 2 is understood, any further consideration of later visions must be based on Daniel 2, only with the addition of further detail. Daniel 2 sets the scene, everything else must fit into what Daniel 2 has laid down as the bottom line.

That said, let us settle on what nearly all Bible scholars agree as to what Daniel 2 represents.
Daniel 2:30-45.
The head of gold is clearly identified as the kingdom of Babylon (626-539BC) in verse 38. From history we know that the other 3 kingdoms following Babylon were Media-Persia (539-331BC), Greece (331-168BC) , and Rome (168BC-476AD). Although the Roman empire ruled longer than the other 3 kingdoms put together, it was not succeeded by a fifth world power but was divided up into kingdoms of varied strength, symbolised in Daniel 7 by the 11 horns which grow from the beast, and by the feet of iron and clay, just as the prophecy predicted. These are the nations that make up modern Europe, nations that, to this day, exist as separate national political entities.

The Bible makes it plain that the stone represents Jesus Christ (Isa. 28:16; 1 Cor. 10:4; Luke 20:17,18.) Who at His second advent will destroy all the other kingdoms and establish an everlasting kingdom.

Daniel 7 and 8 compliment one another, and give added impetus and detail to Daniel 2. I will deal with both 7 and 8 together, in order to make it easier to see the parallels.
Daniel 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings:....

Here is the first beast representing the first of 4 world empires, Babylon, as also revealed as the head of gold in Daniel 2. All Scripture language is to be taken literally, unless there exists some good reason for supposing it to be figurative; and all that is figurative is to be interpreted by that which is literal. That the language here is symbolic is evident when considering verse 17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
That the intention is to show kingdoms and not just individual kings is also evident by the appearance of beasts. Much as modern nations do today, U.S. the eagle; Russia the bear; N.Z. the Kiwi; Aust. the wallaby.etc. Verses 38 and 39 reveal that the first kingdom is babylon, which rose to power through war and conquest. When Daniel mentioned in verse 2 the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. This is symbolic language representing war and strife amongst nations. (Rev.17:15; Isaiah 17:12,13; Jer. 51:1; Jer. 25:32,33.)
[/i]
It is to be noted that all the beasts are predatory, in keeping with the above symbolism. And the wings it can be assumed represent speed. (Deut. 28:49; Jer. 4:13; Habakkuk 1:6-9).
The wings were plucked from the lion, thus no longer was it the threat it formerly offered to her enemies. A man's heart was given to it. Babylon in later years had become timorous, effeminate, and a pleasure seeking society without discipline.

Daniel 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Daniel 8:3 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there stood before the river a ram which had two horns: and the two horns were high; but one was higher than the other, and the higher came up last.
4 I saw the ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward; so that no beasts might stand before him, neither was there any that could deliver out of his hand; but he did according to his will, and became great.

Daniel 8:20 identifies the ram as being Medo-Persia, thus the ram and the bear represent the same power. The bear raised itself up on one side - indicating the more prominent role of the Medes at the beginning of their rise to power, the individual kings being Ahasuerus and his son, Darius.This is also represented by the two horns, with one coming up higher last.
Just as silver is inferior to gold, and the bear inferior to the lion, so was Medo-Persia inferior to Babylon in regards to wealth and brilliance of career. However, the area of conquest was greater than Babylon.
The ribs in the bear's mouth represent the 3 provinces of Babylon that the Medes and Persians conquered: Lydia, Egypt, and Babylon. The ram pushed west, north, and south, precisely where the 3 above provinces were.
Cyrus was the Persian king that rose to prominence represented by the horn that rose up higher. It was Cyrus spoken of and named 150 years previously by Isaiah as the leader that would overthrow Babylon. (There are many parallels with Revelation and the drying up of the Euphrates thus cutting off Babylon's support in the last days, just as Cyrus did to the literal city. This is spiritual Babylon, and the Euphrates is also figurative for the means of support that the people of the earth withhold (Rev.18)when made aware of her corruption.Rev. 16:12 . As Cyrus came from the east to conquer Babylon, so also will Christ come from the east as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.)

Daniel 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

Daniel 8:5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.
6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

The leopard represents Greece, and Alexander the Great is the first king, the 'notable' horn between the goat's eyes.
As Babylon was noted for her speed of conquest, so Alexander even more so, hence the 4 wings. At the height of his power Alexander died, some say of alcohol poisoning, at the young age of about 30. The Grecian kingdom was then ruled briefly by Alexanders brother and his 2 infant sons, but they were all soon murdered and after 22 years of warring and infighting among a number of generalsd who a=had all dispersed to various parts of the empire and asumed authority and declared themselves kings, the number was reduced to just 4, as depicted by the 4 heads of the leopard and the four horns of the goat. The generals were Cassander, Seleucus,Ptolemy, and Lysimachus.
It will be noted that as the ram (Medo-Persia) in Daniel 8:4 is shown to have become great, so the goat(Greece) in Daniel 8:8 'waxed very great'. In area conquered this was very true; Greece had vastly more area overcome than had the previous empire, however, just as the leopard is inferior to the bear, and bronze is inferior to silver, so the character of the empire was inferior to Medo-Persia. Paganism was developing among these empires and growing as they grew. Each empire also inherited certain traits, traditions, and practices from it's predecessors. Thus each kingdom grew progressively worse morally and spiritually.

I will next tackle a more controversial aspect of the prophesy, the little horn that grows from the goat after the rise of the 4 previous horns, and the 4th beast.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Your thread is well written but kind of wordy. I suppose it is good for those who are not well studied. We have a lot of people who are not well studied that think they know what scripture says. Lots of stupid question, and lots of stupid assertions. Hopefully this thread wont have any problems.

 

[veteran]

As I mentioned above, the prophecies of Daniel can be readily understood by using the historicist approach. Futurism and preterism both leave many unanswered questions, many unfulfilled details, and tend to make prophetic interpretation look more like guesswork and wishful thinking rather than the accurate study and strengthening of faith that it can be.

I'm neither a Historicist, nor a Preterist, nor a Futurist, for all those have assumptions that disagree with the understanding of The Bible.

In our Lord's Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, He gave the prophetic events of the seven seals of Revelation 6. And, He gave a specific timing for their coming to pass, the generation of the fig tree.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
(KJV)

His disciples asked Him about "these things", when they would be, what the signs were of His coming, and of the end of the world. Then Christ gave them the seven seal events of Revelation 6, seven particular signs of the end of this world.

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
(KJV)

So even without needing to go deep into each of the seven seals, it's easy to know our Lord Jesus was speaking of "these things" as signs meant to occur at the very end of days within a one generation period, the last generation on this earth just prior to His coming, the generation of the parable of the fig tree.

And how did the early Christian Church treat His Book of Revelation? Certainly not as all past history, for that would be the Preterist view, not the Historicist view you seem to hold to.

Moreover, Daniel 2 shows not 4 beast kingdoms, but FIVE, because it separates the beast image into five different pieces: head of gold; breat and arms of silver; belly and thighs of brass; legs of iron; and feet of part iron and part clay.

And we are shown that a stone cut out not with hands, pointing to Christ, will come and strike that beast image upon its feet, and the whole, all pieces together, will come tumbling down, and then His everlasting kingdom is then setup. So the interpretation of the Daniel 7 beasts must match that Daniel 2 order.

 

[brakelite]

I disagree that the statue reveals 5 separate kingdoms. The 4th kingdom, the iron of the legs, continues through to the end. It merely changes its nature and form, but the essential component that gives it its identity, is the iron which is still present at the second coming. This does match exactly the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. The 4th beast, Rome ,reveals this change in nature by the growth of the little horn. Growing out of the beast like a child from its mother, the horn retains the character and nature of its parent but has its own personality.

Jesus informs us that the way to understand the nearness of His coming is to look back upon history and see there the fulfiment of prophecy. In Matthew He is saying for the generation of the fig tree to look back, and when they see the fulfilment of all the prophecies coming to fruition, then know that He is near. He is not saying that everything will happen in that one generation, but that the same generation that sees the prophecies come to pass will be the same generation that sees His return.

 

[researcher]

the same generation that sees the prophecies come to pass will be the same generation that sees His return.

Jesus would have told the disciples not to worry about it, and that it would occur way in the future if that were the case.

He told his disciples that "they" would see the signs, which is why he used the word "you" as he was talking to them.

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? (age)
Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

Mat 24:33 so also you, when you see all these things, know that it is near at the doors.

Mat 24:44 Because of this, you also be ready, for in that hour you think not, the Son of Man comes.

He would have used the word "they" not "you" if someone else was supposed to see the signs. :\

 

[brakelite]

So, we have veteran who is claiming the prophecies all apply to one generation at the end of time, and we have researcher who is claiming that generation is the apostolic generation of the 1st century. Me,well I think the prophecies began to be fulfilled at the time they were spoken, continued to unfold down through history, and are to be completed in our day. Some of the prophecies of Matt24.or parts of them certainly were fulfilled in the days of the apostles. And some (but not many) are still future. But most have been fulfilled in the timespan between, which you will discover as you read on.



Before I deal with the horn of the goat, I'd like to briefly recap on something from the image of Daniel 2 and stress something that is very important.
What we know of the image is that there are just 4 kingdoms or empires from the beginning of Babylon to the second coming. These four are destroyed by the rock of Christ at His coming.
That means 2 things.
1. That in some form or another they are in existence today all four!), and will be until Jesus comes.
How do I know this? By the beast that rises from the sea in Revelation 13. (And remember beasts are kingdoms) In this beast there is a remnant of each of the 4 beasts we see here in Daniel. And it is that particular beast that is destroyed and thrown into the lake of fire. This can be easily explained by the fact that the pagan belief system of Babylon was inherited by all the following powers, was developed further and will be perfected into a Christian counterfeit at the end that will deceive most of the world. But more on that later.
2. The iron begins from the victory over the Greeks, and continues unbroken (albeit in another form) right to the end. In other words, there is no gap in history- no "revived" Roman empire that is yet to come. Rome is still with us today, there has never been any full or conclusive end to the Roman empire as yet.

To continue with the goat of Daniel 8. We have discovered that the goat represented Greece, that the great horn was it's first king, Alexander, and that when he died , after some conflict and debate, 4 kings ruled in his stead.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.



I want to focus at this time on the 6th horn which grows out of the goat.
This 'little horn' was to exceed the greatness of all the preceding horns. Media/Persia "became great" (Daniel 8:4); The he-goat itself was to wax "very great", (Daniel 8:8), but this little horn was to grow and become "exceeding great".( Daniel 8:9). It is claimed by many, in fact it has almost become standard belief in modern Christian thought, that Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by this little horn. This is based solely on his persecution of the Jews and the desecration of the temple, as is presumed to have taken place upon a reading of the ensuing verses. The problem however is that Antiochus does not meet the requirements of any other specific in the prophecy. (Some refer to him as being the fulfilment of the little horn that grows out of the fourth beast in Daniel 7 also.)
This is particularly popular with the preterist position, but to insist upon this understanding is to wrest the scripture from it's historical setting, for an important point to note is that the 4th beast reaches to the end of time, and is destroyed at the second coming. The view that Antiochus is the little horn restricts the entire book of Daniel to the period of time before Christianity was established.

Let me in detail give my reasons why I believe Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 7.
a. Antiochus does not rise after 10 kings. He was the 8th king in the Syrian line of Seleucid kings. Besides, the prophecy calls for 10 kingdoms to exist contemporaneously, not successively.
b. Antiochus belonged to the 3rd empire (Greece) in actual historical sequence from Daniel's time.
c. He was not 'diverse' from any other king.
d. He did not 'pluck up' 3 other kings.
e. He was not 'stouter' than his fellows. His father was known as Antiochus the Great, not Epiphanes.
f. He did not prevail until the end of time, the judgment.
g. The kingdom following was Rome, not the kingdom of the saints.

Reasons why Antiochus cannot be the little horn of Daniel 8.
a. Antiochus was not a horn in his own right.. He was of the Seleucid line therefore was a part of one of the four.
b. He did not wax exceeding great. In fact his father was greater, but neither was as great as even Babylon or Media Persia, certainly no greater than Alexander. Yet the prophecy demands that the little horn be greater than any empire before it.
c. He does not fit the time periods. According to Maccabees 1:54,59, and 4:52 Antiochus suppressed the sacrifices exactly 3 years. This fits neither the 1260 days , (times time and half a time,) nor the 2300 days (evenings and mornings of Daniel 8:14). These figures do not compliment one another NOR do they meet the reign of Antiochus.
d. The 2300 days is prophetic. Using the day/year principle established elsewhere as being the standard and norm for interpreting prophetic time periods, it is a literal 2300 years.

Therefore,
"And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land."

can only refer to the empire of Rome, and thus is the Daniel 8 parallel to the 4th beast of Daniel 7...
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.



... and the iron legs of the statue of Daniel 2. See how each prophecy repeats and enlarges upon the preceding prophecy?

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. - 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome†(Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart.
These ten kingdoms, according to Edward Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).

“The historian Machiavel, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus [476 A. D], the last emperor of Rome: The Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and the Saxons: ten in all.†(H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the World’s History, p. 318).

Already in the fourth century, Jerome had spoken of the fragmentation of the Roman Empire in the following terms:
“Moreover the fourth kingdom, which plainly pertains to the Romans, is the iron which breaks in pieces and subdues all things. But its feet and toes are partly of iron and partly of clay, which at this time [note that Jerome was living when this was happening] is most plainly attested. For just as in its beginning nothing was stronger and more unyielding than the Roman Empire, so at the end of its affairs nothing is weaker.†(Jerome, Commentary on Daniel, comments on 2:40, column 504). In the days when Jerome lived, the Roman Empire was coming apart. The barbarian tribes from the north had descended upon the empire with a vengeance and broke it up into the nations which today constitute western Europe.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about. You have very good writing skills Brakelight. Now what I would like you to take a look at is interpretations given in place of translation in scriptures. Also when you study, do you also do a word associations? Consider this as a theory: 2300-167BC=2133. 1260+777=2037. 1290+777=2067. 1335+777=2112. 2112+21=2133. 2112-3.5=2109. 2109-42=2067. The 21 years and 42 years repersent a half hour and hour of Revelation. The 3.5 years repersents the time of the Two Witnesses. If a thousand years is like a day, then an hour is 42 years, and a half hour is 21 years. Two days equals 2000 years starting in 133AD. 2000+133=2133. Some certain scriptures have more than one meaning.

 

[(THE)]

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. - 476 A. D.)

You sure about that????????

 

[veteran]

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

Even that above verses reveals FIVE pieces to the statue image of the beast. The one of "the clay" is also rendered separately from the one of "iron", showing 5 beast kingdoms, not 4. And, it shows all five of them together at one time when that "stone" (Christ) is to come and smite the image upon its feet. So prophetic assumptions not based on the last beast kingdom as the 5th and final one will fail.

 

[veteran]

The dragon beast represents the Roman empire (168 B. C. - 476 A. D.). This empire came to be known as the “iron monarchy of Rome†(Edward Gibbon, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, vol. 4, p. 161). The ten horns represent the ten kingdoms into which the Roman Empire was divided when it fell apart.
These ten kingdoms, according to Edward Gibbon, were: The Alemanni, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Vandals, the Suevi, the Visigoths, the Saxons, the Ostrogoths, the Lombards and the Heruli (see, M. H. Brown, The Sure Word of Prophecy, pp. 54, 55).

“The historian Machiavel, without the slightest reference to this prophecy, gives the following list of the nations which occupied the territory of the Western Empire at the time of the fall of Romulus Augustulus [476 A. D], the last emperor of Rome: The Lombards, the Franks, the Burgundians, the Ostrogoths, the Visigoths, the Vandals, the Heruli, the Sueves, the Huns, and the Saxons: ten in all.†(H. Grattan Guinness, The Divine Program of the World’s History, p. 318).

First off, I reference a map from London done in 1828 for R.B. Seeley and W. Burnside of the layout of nations at the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 (see repro by David Rumsey). The main areas were Francia, Saxones, Germania, Vandali, Heruli, Visigothi, Dacia, Bulgares, and Gallia. The areas of the Lombards, Franks, and Burgundi are all under the head of Francia. The Sueves and Huns (Alemania) were under the larger heading of Germania. If the major area headings were omitted, then there would be many, many more sections than ten. So one can do a bit of manipulating and claim ten nations, but that's not exact.

Furthermore, the Roman Empire in toto included the Eastern Roman Empire, what later became called Byzantine, and it continued with Roman emperors long after 476. One should wonder why Historicists can find something similar to ten horns from the Western Roman Empire only at the very end of its history when it was dissolved by those various peoples that brought its dissolution.

I think Fausset covered the Daniel prophecy about Antiochus Epiphanes much better than some would like to admit:

ANTIOCHUS
Antiochus IV succeeded, surnamed Epiphanes, "the Illustrious," for establishing the royal line against Heliodorus. Nicknamed Epimanes, "madman," for his great unkingly freaks, carousing with the lowest, bathing with them in public, and throwing stones at passers by. Hence, and because of his craftily supplanting Demetrius, the rightful heir, he is called in Dan 11 "a vile person." He "came into the kingdom by flatteries" to Eumenes and to Attalus of Pergamus, and to the Syrians high and low. With his "flood" like hosts the Egyptians and Ptolemy Philometer, "the prince of the covenant," were "overflown from before him." Philometor was in covenant with him by right, being son of Cleopatra, Antiochus's sister, to whom Antiochus the Great had promised, as dowry in marrying Ptolemy Epiphanes, Coelosyria and Palestine. Philometor's generals in trying to obtain these covenanted promises were defeated, and Pehsium, the key of Egypt, was taken 171 B.C. Antiochus Epiphanes "worked deceitfully," feigning friendship to young Philometor, and" with a small people" or force, "peaceably" in pretense, he took Memphis and "the fattest places," and seized Philometer.
Thus he" did that which his fathers had not done," namely, gained Egypt, and "scattered among (his dependents) the prey." "He forecast his devices against the strongholds" of Egypt. He gained all except Alexandria. Retiring Judaea, where the Jews in joy at the report of his death had revolted, he took Jerusalem. He then "stirred up his power with a great army against the king of the South," Ptolemy Physcon (the gross), made king by the Egyptians because Philometer was in Antiochus' hands. The Egyptian king did "not stand," for his own nobles "forecast devices against him." At last Antiochus, when checked at Alexandria, met the Egyptian king at Memphis, and "both spoke lies at one table," trying to deceive one another. In his capture of Jerusalem, guided by Menelaus the high priest "against the holy covenant," he took away the golden altar, candlestick, vessels of gold and silver from the temple, sacrificed swine on the altar, and sprinkled swine broth through the temple; his spoils from it amounted 1,800 talents.
A second time he openly invaded Egypt, but his invasion was not successful "as the former," Popilius. Laenas, the Roman ambassador, arriving in Graeco-Macedonian ships ("of Chittim") and compelling him to return. Finding that God's worship had been restored at Jerusalem, "he had indignation against the holy covenant." He "had intelligence (correspondence) with them that forsook the holy covenant," Menelaus and others, who had cast off circumcision and treated all religions as equally good for keeping the masses in check, and adopted Greek customs and philosophy. Antiochus's general, Apollonius, dismantled Jerusalem, and from a high fortress slew the temple worshippers. Antiochus commanded all on pain of death to conform to the Greek religion, and consecrated the temple to Jupiter Olympius or Capitolinus. Identifying himself with that god "whom his fathers knew not," and whose worship he imported from Rome, he wished to make his own worship universal.
The Jews were constrained to profane the sabbath and monthly on the king's birthday to eat of the idol sacrifices, and to go in procession to Bacchus, carrying ivy. This was the gravest peril that ever betel the theocratic nation; hence arose the need of a prediction so detailed as Dan 8; 11. Porphyry the opponent of Christianity, had to admit the accurate correspondence of the facts to the prediction, but explained it away by alleging the latter to have been written after the events. But as Messianic events are foretold in Daniel, Jesus' adversaries, the Jews, would never have forged the prophecies which confirm His claims. Dan 9 would comfort the faithful Jews amidst the "abominations" against "the covenant," with the prospect of Messiah, who would confirm it. Bringing salvation, yet abolishing sacrifices, He would show that the temple services which they so missed were not indispensable to real worship.
Language is used (Dan 11:31-45) which only in type applies to Antiochus, but exhaustively to Antichrist. Antiochus "took away the daily sacrifice, and placed (on the 15 th day of Cisleu, on Jehovah's altar) the abomination (idol, Jupiter Olympius' image) that maketh desolate," i.e. that pollutes the temple. The Maccabees (see 1 and 2 Maccabees in Apocrypha), "who knew their God, were strong" in their determination not to deny Him, and "did exploits." Judas, son of the patriot Mattathias, took as his motto the initials of Mi Camokah Baelim Jehovah (Ex 15:11), "Who is like unto Thee, O Lord, among the gods?" Allusion occurs to the martyrs under Antiochus in Heb 11:35-37: "others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection." Seven brothers and their mother submitted to a torturing death rather than deny their faith, the third saying, "Thou takest us out of this present life, but the King of the world shall raise us up who have died for His laws unto everlasting life" (compare Dan 12:2).
Two women who circumcised their infant boys were cast down with them headlong from the wall. Eleazar when forced to eat swine's flesh spit it out, choosing to suffer death at fourscore and ten rather than deny the faith (compare the apocryphal 2 Macc. 6-7). Some were roasted alive "by flame" in caves, whither they had fled to keep the sabbath. The first of the seven brothers, after his tongue was cut off, was fried to death in a heated pan. The persecution lasted three years; then, by the Maccabees, who defeated Antiochus' troops under Lysias, the Jews were "holpen with a little help," i.e. saved from extinction until the times of the Romans. Antiochus, while invading Egypt, hearing "tidings out of the E. and out of the N. of a revolt of his vassal Artaxias, king of Armenia, in the N., and Arsaces of Parthid in the E., went forth with great fury, on the way took Arad in Judah, devastated Phoenicia (according to Porphyry), "planting the tabernacles of his palace between the seas" (the Dead Sea and the Mediterranean), attacked the temple of Nanae at Elymais, ("the desire of women," the Syrian Venus; but the antitypical reference is to Messiah, whom Antichrist shall try to supplant,) to replenish his treasury, so as to renew the war with the Jews.
But, failing, "he came to his end" at Tabes, and "none helped him" (1 Macc. 3:10-37; 6:1-16; 2 Macc. 9:5). "The Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, smote him with an incurable plague; for as soon as he had spoken these words (that he would make Jerusalem a common burying place of the Jews) a remediless pain of the bowels came upon him," etc., 164 B.C. T
(from Fausset's Bible Dictionary, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1998 by Biblesoft)

 

[veteran]

Concerning the "vile person" and the historical Antiochus Epiphanes, Antiochus served ONLY as a 'type' for the final Antichrist. Since the Reformers were still looking for a final antichrist fulfilment in their days, and they pointed to a pope, it means they also knew Antiochus was but a 'type' only.

Not only that, our Lord Jesus obviously knew Antiochus was only a 'type', since our Lord Jesus gave the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel 11 to His disciples around 200 years AFTER Antiochus had taken Jerusalem and setup idol worship in the temple around 170 B.C.

Antiochus served as a blueprint; the Romans destroying Jerusalem in 70 A.D. served as a blueprint. Even the Dome of The Rock which the Muslims built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem when they took Jerusalem centuries back serves as another blueprint type for the final antichrist yet to come.

In NONE of those historical blueprints did our Lord Jesus Christ return to this earth to setup His Kingdom at Jerusalem de facto with gathering His elect saints there like God's Word shows as written. That event is still waiting, and is a REQUIREMENT of the Daniel 2 & 7 prophecy fulfillment.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Daniel 2:44. "In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. Job 38:33. Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God's dominion over the earth? Job 9:9
He is the Maker of the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the constellations of the south.

Job 38:31
"Can you bind the beautiful Pleiades? Can you loose the cords of Orion?

Amos 5:8
(he who made the Pleiades and Orion, who turns blackness into dawn and darkens day into night, who calls for the waters of the sea and pours them out over the face of the land— the LORD is his name-
Revelation 1:20
The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
Any comments?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Zechariah 3:8
" 'Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch.

Zechariah 3:9
See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it,' says the LORD Almighty, 'and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day.

Zechariah 4:10
"Who despises the day of small things? Men will rejoice when they see the plumb line in the hand of Zerubbabel. "(These seven are the eyes of the LORD, which range throughout the earth.)"

Revelation 5:6
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

 

[veteran]

I disagree that the statue reveals 5 separate kingdoms. The 4th kingdom, the iron of the legs, continues through to the end. It merely changes its nature and form, but the essential component that gives it its identity, is the iron which is still present at the second coming. This does match exactly the 4 beasts of Daniel 7. The 4th beast, Rome ,reveals this change in nature by the growth of the little horn. Growing out of the beast like a child from its mother, the horn retains the character and nature of its parent but has its own personality.

Jesus informs us that the way to understand the nearness of His coming is to look back upon history and see there the fulfiment of prophecy. In Matthew He is saying for the generation of the fig tree to look back, and when they see the fulfilment of all the prophecies coming to fruition, then know that He is near. He is not saying that everything will happen in that one generation, but that the same generation that sees the prophecies come to pass will be the same generation that sees His return.

I do understand what you're saying. However, the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay is another piece of the beast image we're given, and specifically the part of the image which Christ will strike at His coming. Something else we're to catch with that beast image of Dan.2. It's VERY top-heavy with the heaviest metals on top. So it'll come tumbling down very quickly.

Our Lord sealed His Message of the breaking of the beast image upon it's feet of iron & clay twice. Once in Dan.2:34-35, and once again here...

Dan 2:39-45
39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.

Most Bible scholars agree that 4th beast of legs of iron was about the pagan Roman empire. I agree also. But because the 'feet' of iron mixed with clay is mentioned existing in the days when the WHOLE beast image is destroyed by the "stone" (Christ), and then Christ's Eternal Kingdom is setup on earth after that, it can only mean the one of feet must be the final beast kingdom, ever. The 4th beast kingdom has already fallen, and Christ's Eternal Kingdom, a literal kingdom on earth, has still... not been setup yet. The saints have yet to be gathered to Him.

So between these Dan.2:40 and 41 verses, one must decide. Is verse 40 above meant to continue with the feet and toes of verse 41, or is there a separation of time between these verses? I declare there is a separation of time between these verses. And the 41st verse is about the deadly wound being healed, and is for the end of days when Christ will come to destroy the whole... beast kingdom concept off the earth forever.

41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

I think the phrase "they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay", is an important pointer as to what the 'clay' part is about. I won't go into it deeply here, but I feel there's a mystery in it for a specific type of event meant only for the very end of days. However, because the 'iron' part is involved with the feet and toes part, it means to carry over the descriptions of the 4th beast 'legs of iron' into the 5th beast of the 'feet and toes', i.e., it's structure on the earth.

44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

The Dan.2:44-45 verses are a repeat of the Dan.2:34-35 idea of the "stone" smiting the kingdom of feet and toes, and the whole image comes tumbling down. And then right after that Christ's Eternal Kingdom is setup on earth, with never another beast kingdom again. It's pretty important that our Lord gave this prophecy part two times for emphasis.

Is that Dan.2 pattern represented in the Dan.7 descriptions also? I think it is.


Dan 7:7-10
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Right here is another possible division point. If the beast of 'legs of iron' is this 4th beast, and points to the Roman empire of history, then this structure of ten horns is also present with the beast of 'feet and toes', since the toes are of part iron and part clay (different than the 4th beast of 'legs of iron'.)

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

In this example, there's an additional 'horn', the "little horn", which has eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. That's pointing to the "little horn" as a specific entity beyond the ten kings of the 4th beast of 'legs of iron'. It's parallel is in the Rev.17:8-13 verses, which points to a 'beast' king which the ten horns (kings) give their power to. So the pattern of the "little horn" is a reign in contemporary with the same time of the ten horns (11 in total). In Rev.17:10-13 it's the same pattern, 11 kings contemporary with each other, but one is labeled by the title of 'beast' (Rev.17:8 & 11). Rev.13 reveals two different 'beast' concepts, the first as a kingdom compared here in Dan.7, and then another beast in Rev.13:11 forward as a beast entity. That's this "little horn".


9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
(KJV)

Daniel beheld that beast kingdom of ten horns with another little horn coming up among the ten, until God destroyed it, and the time of His Judgment was set. The books being opened is about His great white throne judgment after Christ's thousand years reign with His elect (Rev.20). That has not been fulfilled yet. That time of those thrones being cast down is the same timing of the "stone" (Christ) smiting the image beast upon its feet, and the whole comes down together.

 

[brakelite]

Since the 1970's and Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth", there have been a raft of names, organisations, churches, individuals, religions,nations, cats , dogs and goldfish offered as answers to the question, 'who or what is the little horn?' But this isn't a blind game of pinning the tail on the donkey. We can't just pull names out of a hat without evidential support.
History has matched the prophecy perfectly in that pagan Rome was never vanquished by any outside power. Rome is not conquered by any power other than Christ Himself who destroys it at His second coming. At that time Rome,mixed with the clay, and all the vestiges of the powers that preceded it and which passed on so much of their own life and character to their conquerers,are turned to fine dust that is blown away in the wind. (Daniel 2:35) Therefore Rome, in the form of iron, continues unbroken to the last day. What we must look for is that continuation which the little horn represents, not a revival or resurrection.
Rome disintegrated from within, and changed its nature, but continued only in another form. Much like the change in the leopard beast (Greece) that grew four horns and the kingdom being subsequently divided between Alexander's four generals, so also was Rome divided by the ten horns that grew out of it. That this process (in the westerm sphere)was complete by the 5th century is attested to by all secular and Christian historians. The little horn grew up among them, had a hand in destroying 3 of them, and continued to rule the rest which formed the foundation of what we know today as western Europe.
Any attempt to to pinpoint some time in the future as the rise of the little horn does violence to the prophecy and denies history. While I can agree that Antiochus had a certain influence in the Middle East for a while, it is miniscule when compared to the demands of the prophetic picture brought to us in the descriptions and character of the 'little horn'. That 'liitle horn' of Daniel 7 that grows from the 4th beast is what I see as a more detailed description of the clay/iron mix in Daniel 2. Yes, certainly not the same kingdom as pagan Rome which the 4th beast depicts, but still Rome. Just as the 4 horns represented a division in the Greek empire of Alexander, and thus four separate kingdoms under the 4 generals that finally came to power after a few years infighting and political assassination, yet they 4 were still Greek in nature. And that is the intention of the prophecy. Though there may be a series of new kings and rulers, yet their character , and practice, reveals that they one and all are still Roman, just as the presence of the iron demands.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Remember, that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The one in Daniel 8:9 represents the empire of pagan Rome. It is the parallel symbol of the dragon beast with the ten horns and iron teeth that rises from the sea. However, in Daniel 8:10 can be seen a change in the practice of the little horn from being one that "waxed exceeding great" on a horizontal plane
to one that then "waxed great" on a vertical plane in verse 10. Rome at first operated as a secular pagan entity. But here we see a change in her nature to a religious entity in that she began to attack the things of God and spiritual truths that pertain to heaven.
The little horn of Daniel 7:8, which grows out of the Roman empire amongst the former ten horns and uproots 3 of them, is also an entity which has aspirations of a more heavenly nature, as can be seen by some of it's characteristics which I shall in detail deal with shortly.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.


As you pointed out here Veteran,we see here that the duration of this little horn does not end until the judgment. So it endures right up to the second coming, therefore is with us today. There are also much more written on this little horn. There is in fact more detail given concerning this horn than on any of the other beasts together. Thus it is abundantly clear that in His love and mercy God desires that we know who and what this entity is for it is clearly a threat to our spiritual welfare.

Daniel 7:15 ¶ I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Again we see that this horn endures until the second coming, but we also see more detail of it's character and practice. Daniel was greatly concerned and approached the accompanying angel to inquire regarding the vision, particularly the little horn. Here is the angel's reply.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

So here is a summary of the characteristics that pertain specifically to the little horn.

1) The little horn arises from the fourth beast (7:8). The fourth beast represents Rome, so the little horn must be a Roman power.

2) The little horn arises among the ten horns. The ten horns are the divisions of western Europe, so the little horn must arise in western Europe (7:8). Notice that these first two characteristics restrict the geographical location of the little horn to western Europe.

3) The little horn rises after the ten horns (7:24). According to historians, the ten horns were complete in the year 476 A. D., so this must mean that the little horn was to arise to power sometime after 476 A. D.

4) The little horn was to pluck up three of the first [ten] horns by the roots (7:8). This means that these three nations would be uprooted from history. Daniel 7:20-21 explains that three of the first horns would fall before the little horn, and Daniel 7:24 tells us that the little horn would subdue three horns. In other words, three of the first ten nations would disappear from history!!

5) The little horn was to speak great words against the Most High (7:21, 25). Revelation 13:5 explains what these words would be, namely, blasphemy. And, What is blasphemy according to the Bible? It is when a merely human power claims to be God on earth and when it thinks it can exercise the prerogatives and functions of God (see, John 10:30-33; Mark 2:7).

6) The little horn was to be a persecuting power. This is stated in Daniel 7:21 and repeated in verse 25.

7) The little horn would think it could change God’s “timesâ€, that is to say, God’s timetable of prophetic events. (Daniel 2:21). We shall see that the little horn invented a false system of prophetic interpretation to rival historicism.

8) The little horn would even have the audacity to THINK that it could change God’s holy law. (7:25).

9) The little horn would be different that the ten horns. It would be an amalgamation of church and state (7:24)

10) This power would govern for a time, times and half a time (7:25). This comes out to 42 months or 1260 days (see, Revelation 13:5-6; 12:6, 13-15). In Bible prophecy, literal days are symbolic of years, so this power was to govern for 1260 years .

11) The little horn had eyes like a man. In Bible Prophecy, eyes are a symbol of wisdom (see, Ephesians 1:18; Revelation 5:6). Even today, an owl is a symbol of wisdom because of its large eyes. In other words, this power was to depend on human wisdom.

 

[veteran]

Since the 1970's and Hal Lindsay's "Late Great Planet Earth", there have been a raft of names, organisations, churches, individuals, religions,nations, cats , dogs and goldfish offered as answers to the question, 'who or what is the little horn?' But this isn't a blind game of pinning the tail on the donkey. We can't just pull names out of a hat without evidential support.

I've certainly not been pulling things out of hat like some magic show. I don't adhere to Hal Lindsay's philosophies. I study God's Word. So I only see your above words as a vain attempt to attack the credibility of those who disagree with you on this matter.

History has matched the prophecy perfectly in that pagan Rome was never vanquished by any outside power. Rome is not conquered by any power other than Christ Himself who destroys it at His second coming. At that time Rome,mixed with the clay, and all the vestiges of the powers that preceded it and which passed on so much of their own life and character to their conquerers,are turned to fine dust that is blown away in the wind. (Daniel 2:35) Therefore Rome, in the form of iron, continues unbroken to the last day. What we must look for is that continuation which the little horn represents, not a revival or resurrection.

Such statements seem more like generalizations and suppositions than anything else, which is not even following the Dan.2:34-35 Scripture. And you're terribly mistaken about Rome continuing as it was, because the Roman Empire, Republic of Rome, etc., was not even a Christian empire. Instead, it killed many Christians since it followed pagan worship of Mercury, Jupiter, etc. Only after Constantine was Christianity allowed an open voice, and close to that time when The Gospel took sway, much of the paganism began ceasing among many, but not all, even as it was in other later European nations which began accepting Christ Jesus. So the beast kingdom of the "legs of iron" did suffer a deadly wound, a fatal blow, when Christianity became the dominant faith in Rome and among its sister the eastern Roman empire which became the Byzantine empire. This is why the Roman Church was forced to admit the older antiquity of the earlier Churches in Britain (see Culdee history of Britain).

Rome disintegrated from within, and changed its nature, but continued only in another form. Much like the change in the leopard beast (Greece) that grew four horns and the kingdom being subsequently divided between Alexander's four generals, so also was Rome divided by the ten horns that grew out of it. That this process (in the westerm sphere)was complete by the 5th century is attested to by all secular and Christian historians. The little horn grew up among them, had a hand in destroying 3 of them, and continued to rule the rest which formed the foundation of what we know today as western Europe.

I've already showed the assumption of ten nations growing out of the Roman empire is a suspect teaching, only held by some Bible scholars, and certainly not all. One has to do a pick and choose to try and define the European peoples that gained power over Rome, at the expense of leaving some out. That's what the early western European map reference I gave reveals. And even scholars that did hold to that ten nations idea still saw the ten horned beast of Revelation as the pattern for a final antichrist way in the future. I've discovered not many Christians realize there has always been an earlier Church that was established in Britain before the Roman Church. Most are wrongly taught the Roman Church was first. St. Augustine found out Rome wasn't first to proclaim The Gospel when he went to Britain to further the aims of a pope in Rome. He discovered there bishops in Britain already in place, and as somewhat cold towards him and the idea of a Christian pope that declared authority in Rome. That reveals Rome actually had a much smaller role in many of the European nations accepting Christ.

Any attempt to to pinpoint some time in the future as the rise of the little horn does violence to the prophecy and denies history. While I can agree that Antiochus had a certain influence in the Middle East for a while, it is miniscule when compared to the demands of the prophetic picture brought to us in the descriptions and character of the 'little horn'. That 'liitle horn' of Daniel 7 that grows from the 4th beast is what I see as a more detailed description of the clay/iron mix in Daniel 2. Yes, certainly not the same kingdom as pagan Rome which the 4th beast depicts, but still Rome. Just as the 4 horns represented a division in the Greek empire of Alexander, and thus four separate kingdoms under the 4 generals that finally came to power after a few years infighting and political assassination, yet they 4 were still Greek in nature. And that is the intention of the prophecy. Though there may be a series of new kings and rulers, yet their character , and practice, reveals that they one and all are still Roman, just as the presence of the iron demands.

Your first statement is another credibility generalization which proves nothing. As for your description of what Antiochus did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem as being "miniscule", that is an understatement. He fulfilled the Daniel prophecy of the "little horn" better than anyone has to date. And since we know he was not the actual "little horn" that was to come, that means Antiochus still serves as an "ensample" for the actual "little horn" that is to come. Moreover, per Dan.2 and 7, the "little horn" only comes when the beast kingdom of the feet and toes manifest, which is a 5th beast kingdom, not the 4th which was the one of "legs of iron" pagan Rome that ended.

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Remember, that the little horn in Daniel 8:9 is different from the little horn of Daniel 7:8. The one in Daniel 8:9 represents the empire of pagan Rome. It is the parallel symbol of the dragon beast with the ten horns and iron teeth that rises from the sea. However, in Daniel 8:10 can be seen a change in the practice of the little horn from being one that "waxed exceeding great" on a horizontal plane
to one that then "waxed great" on a vertical plane in verse 10. Rome at first operated as a secular pagan entity. But here we see a change in her nature to a religious entity in that she began to attack the things of God and spiritual truths that pertain to heaven.

The idea of the beast image being smitten by the stone per Dan.2, is that ALL the previous beast kingdoms will be manifest among the final one of feet and toes of part iron and part clay. Also, the references in Dan.8 about the "little horn" is still involving the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation (i.e., "abomination of desolation"). Where is that idea of the daily sacrifice and abomination of desolation take place? Not Rome, but Jerusalem, even as our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24, with a false messiah standing in the "holy place" in the temple, an act which Antiochus did per history, but something the Romans in 70 A.D. Jerusalem never did.

The little horn of Daniel 7:8, which grows out of the Roman empire amongst the former ten horns and uproots 3 of them, is also an entity which has aspirations of a more heavenly nature, as can be seen by some of it's characteristics which I shall in detail deal with shortly.

Daniel does not show the "little horn" grows out of the pagan Roman empire, for the 4th beast of "legs of iron" represented the fallen Roman empire of history, which has long been gone. The "little horn" comes up out another ten horned beast, a 5th beast which involves the feet part of the beast image, feet with ten toes of part iron and part clay. And when that 5th one comes, it will carry all the previous beast kingdoms together, for that's picture of the "stone" smitting the beast image in Dan.2, and all the pieces, the head of gold, the breast and arms of silver, the belly and thighs of brass, the legs of iron, and the feet of ten toes (ten horns again) of part iron and part clay, all together come falling down. Count the pieces; it totals to 5 beast kingdoms, not 4.

Daniel 7:9 ¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

As you pointed out here Veteran,we see here that the duration of this little horn does not end until the judgment. So it endures right up to the second coming, therefore is with us today. There are also much more written on this little horn. There is in fact more detail given concerning this horn than on any of the other beasts together. Thus it is abundantly clear that in His love and mercy God desires that we know who and what this entity is for it is clearly a threat to our spiritual welfare.

I do not see a 'king' ruling in Rome today over the European nations. If you haven't noticed, not all nations in Europe are under the Roman Church and its pope. And the few western monarchies that remain certainly are't either. So where's the ten kings that "little horn" is to reign over? And since the Daniel prophecies we speak of was given specificaly for Daniel's people AND Jerusalem, then how do the Jews figure in that? Just that prophecy pointer in Daniel about Jerusalem and the children of Israel is enough to make the whole Historicist view of endtime Rome fall flat. So as for our spiritual welfare in Christ Jesus, it's better to concentrate of watching the events He gave for the signs of the end of this world, and the coming of the final antichrist. Our Lord's prophecies point to Jerusalem in that, and not Rome or a pope.

Again we see that this horn endures until the second coming, but we also see more detail of it's character and practice. Daniel was greatly concerned and approached the accompanying angel to inquire regarding the vision, particularly the little horn. Here is the angel's reply.

The historical pagan Roman empire stomped the residue with its feet, because at its height it covered more territory than all the beast kingdoms before it. So even at that point of description by Daniel, it's about the Roman empire under pagan rule of emperors at the height of its power, over the previous beasts. That's a long ways from the time of a Christian pope. And one must remember that Protestant Christianity came out of the Roman Church system later.

So to assume that the "little horn" idea continued with establishing of the Roman Church, that's saying that much of the history of western Christianity has always been FAKE. That's exactly the kind of thinking one would expect from an othrodox Jew that seeks to destroy the credibility of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[JudaicChristian]

The historical pagan Roman empire stomped the residue with its feet, because at its height it covered more territory than all the beast kingdoms before it. So even at that point of description by Daniel, it's about the Roman empire under pagan rule of emperors at the height of its power, over the previous beasts. That's a long ways from the time of a Christian pope. And one must remember that Protestant Christianity came out of the Roman Church system later.

So to assume that the "little horn" idea continued with establishing of the Roman Church, that's saying that much of the history of western Christianity has always been FAKE. That's exactly the kind of thinking one would expect from an othrodox Jew that seeks to destroy the credibility of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Im not sure what you are saying, but there were Christian sects and cults before Christianity was made a national Roman religion.

 

[brakelite]

I've certainly not been pulling things out of hat like some magic show. I don't adhere to Hal Lindsay's philosophies. I study God's Word. So I only see your above words as a vain attempt to attack the credibility of those who disagree with you on this matter.

No, rather it is simply a fact of recent Christian history that many have proffered many names , organisations, etc as candidates for the title 'antichrist'. Fiction books and movies add to plethora of confusion as to who it is or might be. By overlooking the testimony of all the reformers and the facts of medieval history in particular and continuing to claim that the antichrist is still future you are adding to the confusion.

Such statements seem more like generalizations and suppositions than anything else, which is not even following the Dan.2:34-35 Scripture. And you're terribly mistaken about Rome continuing as it was, because the Roman Empire, Republic of Rome, etc., was not even a Christian empire. Instead, it killed many Christians since it followed pagan worship of Mercury, Jupiter, etc. Only after Constantine was Christianity allowed an open voice, and close to that time when The Gospel took sway, much of the paganism began ceasing among many, but not all, even as it was in other later European nations which began accepting Christ Jesus.

I never claimed that the Roman Empire was Christian. Certainly, by the time of Constantine, I am aware that many historians claim that at least half of the empire had converted to Christianity, and I have no reason to argue with that. Which prompted Constantine to his pretended conversion and his subsequent tolerance toward the new religion. Constantine himself however never gave up his sun worship.

So the beast kingdom of the "legs of iron" did suffer a deadly wound, a fatal blow, when Christianity became the dominant faith in Rome

The true faith was persecuted relentlessly in Rome by the pagan power, yes, but when Constantine moved his capital to the east and left the secular seat vacant, the church was corrupted over a period of time and apostacised when she accepted the secular role of the pontiffs of Rome. The Roman official church which later became the papacy then turned its persecuting powers against those Christians who chose not to side with the corrupted branch, and fled to the wilderness. (See Rev.12) The pagan beliefs never fully disappeared, they were continued in the compromised dogmas and doctrines of the Roman church. In Christmas, in Easter, in Sunday, and many others. All remnants of the old pagan worship system that survived in a 'baptised' form. The iron continued in those beliefs, and in the penchant for persecuting and ridding itself of dissent.

This is why the Roman Church was forced to admit the older antiquity of the earlier Churches in Britain

I am not sure of the connection here, but I am aware of the earlier Celtic church history in Britain, which as you say, refused to submit to the Roman church.

I've already showed the assumption of ten nations growing out of the Roman empire is a suspect teaching, only held by some Bible scholars, and certainly not all. One has to do a pick and choose to try and define the European peoples that gained power over Rome, at the expense of leaving some out.

Certainly, in those days for many years there was much confusion, and no maps remained reliable or consistent for very long. However, today there are 7 nations still in existence which trace their roots to 7 of those tribes. 3 other major tribes of the time were destroyed by Empirical armies because they resisted or ruled in part over the Roman church and were Arian in belief.

That's what the early western European map reference I gave reveals. And even scholars that did hold to that ten nations idea still saw the ten horned beast of Revelation as the pattern for a final antichrist way in the future.

The ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is the antichrist. And as can be seen it is a beast that comprises all of the 4 previous beasts depicted in Daniel 7. Interesting that John , as he describes the beast, goes backwards in chronological order. Working back he describes the iron teeth, the leopard body, the bears feet, and lions mouth. Naturally he couldn't name Rome as his writings would have been immediately confiscated by his captors. The ten horns of that beast however are a different ten, coming up as he did after 476ad and the already established ten horns of the beast of Daniel 7. The seven heads are significant also, but that is for another study.

I've discovered not many Christians realize there has always been an earlier Church that was established in Britain before the Roman Church. Most are wrongly taught the Roman Church was first. St. Augustine found out Rome wasn't first to proclaim The Gospel when he went to Britain to further the aims of a pope in Rome. He discovered there bishops in Britain already in place, and as somewhat cold towards him and the idea of a Christian pope that declared authority in Rome. That reveals Rome actually had a much smaller role in many of the European nations accepting Christ.

The popes of Rome claimed universal authority over all Christians everywhere it could cast its tentacles. The Celtic church held out for many years, but was eventually overcome greatly through political manouverings and the threat of war. The same way the Roman church held sway in many parts of Europe by using Catholic kings to implement Roman dogma. Clovis of the Franks is one early example. Augustine was the first Catholic in Britain, but by no means the last. A 1000 years of war and politics followed, and today there is still a battle going on in Britain for the hearts and minds of her people. I would hesitate to claim the the Roman church had only a small role in European history. It dominated the area for over a thousand years, deposing kings at will and putting fear into the hearts of anyone who would dare to claim independence.

Your first statement is another credibility generalization which proves nothing. As for your description of what Antiochus did in 170 B.C. Jerusalem as being "miniscule", that is an understatement. He fulfilled the Daniel prophecy of the "little horn" better than anyone has to date.

Sorry, Veteran, but 'better than anyone to date' doesn't cut it. Prophecy demand complete fulfilment, or it's not worth contemplating. Antiochus did not fulfill every requirement of the prophecy. Thus he cannot be considered as any type of antichrist, real or shadow.

The idea of the beast image being smitten by the stone per Dan.2, is that ALL the previous beast kingdoms will be manifest among the final one of feet and toes of part iron and part clay.

I agree. And the beast of Rev.13 confirms that. All the empires are present in that beast. That doesn't mean they are present as literal powers, but their influence, [practices, and pagan roots are still extant in the final beast. Satan has had many years of practice in perfecting his masterpiece; each abomination being carried on in each successor, until the final masterpiece is revealed. Babylon the Great. Mother of Harlots.

Also, the references in Dan.8 about the "little horn" is still involving the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation (i.e., "abomination of desolation"). Where is that idea of the daily sacrifice and abomination of desolation take place? Not Rome, but Jerusalem, even as our Lord Jesus showed in Matt.24, with a false messiah standing in the "holy place" in the temple, an act which Antiochus did per history, but something the Romans in 70 A.D. Jerusalem never did.

No wonder you are confused. You are claiming that Antiochus is a fulfilment of a prophecy Jesus gave nearly 200 years after Antiochus disappeared from the scene. Huh?

Daniel does not show the "little horn" grows out of the pagan Roman empire, for the 4th beast of "legs of iron" represented the fallen Roman empire of history, which has long been gone.

First, the legs of iron are attached to the feet. No gap. Second, I will show from history in coming posts that the papacy fits the demands of the prophecy exactly. I will show that the church of Rome rose among the ten nations which were established before 476 ad, that she uprooted 3 of them, that she ruled as a church/state union thus continueiong the role of pagan Rome mixed with the church (iron/clay) and that she fulfilled at least 7 or 8 other characteristics of the little horn as well, excepting none. To claim that there is still a future entity aside from the RCC is to utterly ignore history.Evidence of all this is in the pipeline and I will post as time ( and answering your challenges) permits.

I do not see a 'king' ruling in Rome today over the European nations. If you haven't noticed, not all nations in Europe are under the Roman Church and its pope.

I agree. And I will explain how the papacy suffered a deadly head wound as per the picture in Revealtion and is now today recovering from that. Current events declare that she is gaining power in Europe. But Europe is not her goal. She aims far wider than that. She craves global power, as recent papal encyclicals have revealed.

So to assume that the "little horn" idea continued with establishing of the Roman Church, that's saying that much of the history of western Christianity has always been FAKE. That's exactly the kind of thinking one would expect from an othrodox Jew that seeks to destroy the credibility of The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

My contention is exactly that, yes. Much of western 'Christianity' has indeed been fake. Or as the Bible put it, apostate. The real gospel was in the west though, but in the wilderness. Hidden in the caves and mountains where they had been chased and harried by the Roman church. Again, see Rev. 12.

 

[JudaicChristian]

My contention is exactly that, yes. Much of western 'Christianity' has indeed been fake. Or as the Bible put it, apostate. The real gospel was in the west though, but in the wilderness. Hidden in the caves and mountains where they had been chased and harried by the Roman church. Again, see Rev. 12.

The chariot with the white horses went west to America in the wilderness. That is Christianity fleeing from Catholic persecution in Europe.

 

[veteran]

Im not sure what you are saying, but there were Christian sects and cults before Christianity was made a national Roman religion.

What I'm saying is very simple. Believing that the "little horn" prophecy involved Rome during the 4th beast of Daniel is a view of Judaizers within the Church. That's why the Judaizers see the office of the pope as a continued "little horn" role. It is also to infer that Christianity which came from believers at Rome was fake all along, including Protestant Christianity which came out of Christian reformers like Martin Luther.

But in reality, the reason why the office of the pope ("bishop of bishops") began later in Roman Church history is because of how bishops in other nations were propping theirselves up under their own authority. The early days of the Roman Church did not even have an office of a 'pope' ("bishops of bishops").

And further, the Roman Church has admitted in their history that Britain was the first to accept Christ on a national scale (per early councils of the Roman Church, per Britain's historians like Bede, and the early Culdee Church). The Gospel was first accepted on a majority note in Britain while Rome was still under pagan rule, and without a pope. So Rome is not the Judaizer's so-called 'mother Church' of Christianity per the real history. Even in the original 1611 KJV Bible, the translators included a Letter To The Reader which they said a Roman pope ("bishop of bishops" as the office was first called) had no authority over them, and that they would only grant a pope the amount of respect they would any other single Christian believer.

So what does the real history of Christianity reveal? That Britain was a Christian nation before the national Church at Rome ever existed. Further histories of other European nations also reveal that The Gospel was preached in many nations before the Roman Church ever came into existence. So just like there's still lies in our school Biology texts like the fake drawing of a human embryo made to look like those of animals, there's also revisionist lies in the schools of theology about the antiquity of early Christianity. One should wonder why the Letters the 1611 KJV Bible translators wrote to the reader, and to king James, have long since been removed from all later KJV editions.

So if the early Roman Church did not begin with a "bishop of bishops" office, then how can it be seen as a continuance of the "little horn" prophecy of the 4th beast of "legs of iron" per Daniel? It can't. Not only that, the Daniel prophecy must involve Jerusalem and the placing of the abomination that maketh desolate, an idol in the temple, and that's what our Lord Jesus was pointing to in Matthew 24 when He quoted from Daniel about the "abomination of desolation" being setup there in Jerusalem. Yet the Judaizers still want to change all that and point it to Rome, like their strategy is to get our attention off of Jerusalem. It won't work.