Muslim 001 wrote:
Hello, Elisha
The matter is rather simple and there is no contradiction.
Elisha Kai replies:
No actually the matter is not simply at all, and there is a contradiction
Muslim 001 wrote:
As a muslim, I'm instructed to believe in the prophets that came before Muhammad (PBUH) and their messages since all these messages are essentially the same. Islam is the only non-Christian faith that make believing in Jesus (PBUH) and his miraculous birth an article of faith. No muslim is a muslim without believing in this:
"And remember when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily, Allâh has chosen you, purified you, and chosen you above the women of the mankind" 3:42
"[45] (Remember) when the angels said: "O Mary! Verily, Allâh gives you the glad tidings of a Word - and he was! (i.e. Jesus the son of Mary) from Him, his name will be the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those who are near to Allâh. [46] He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood, and he will be one of the righteous. [47] She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allâh creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" - and it is. [48] And He (Allâh) will teach him (Jesus) the Book and Al-Hikmah (i.e. the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom), (and) the Torah and the Injeel Gospel." 3:45-48
Elisha replies:
I appreciate that, however, other religions also appreciate our Lord Jesus, such as the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Hare Krishna
Muslim 001 wrote:
So the verses you mentioned about believing in the Torah & the Gospel are related to this article of the muslim faith. The question is not whether we believe in these books, but whether these books that we have now are indeed the books that were revealed to the prophets.
Elisha Kai replies:
That is a different topic from this thread; this thread asks what the Qur’an has to say about Bible corruption.
The topic you are bringing up should not even concern the Muslims, as Muslims are to obey the Qur’an and support the Christian faith against its critics.
By asking such questions or making such a statement you have proven yourself to be a Muslim that has gone astray:
O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and his Messenger, and the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO HIS MESSENGER, AND the SCRIPTURE WHICH HE SENT TO THOSE BEFORE (HIM). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His BOOKS, His messengers, and the day of judgement, hath gone fare astray (Sura 4:136)
As I have already pointed out these refers to the Bible in the time of Muhammed
Otherwise Jews and Christians are to follow a corrupted book
“Say, O people of the book! You are not founded on anything until you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord†(Sura 5:68-71)
Otherwise the Muslim will have accept a corrupted book
Be courteous when you argue with People of the Book except with those among them who do evil. Say: “ We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is oneâ€Â. (29:46)
Otherwise Muhammad was to consult the corrupters who followed a corrupted book:
“If you Muhammad are in doubt regarding that which we have revealed to thee, ask THOSE who READ the BOOK from BEFORE YOU†(Sura 10:94).
Muslim 001 wrote:
Now to your qoutes:
It is He who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the BOOK, CONFIRMING WHAT WENT BEFORE IT; and He sent down the Torah (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) (Sura 3:3)
Yes, to indicate that the Quran is a contuinity to these books. Islam is not a new religion but rather the same religion revived.
Elisha Kai replies:
That is not what the passage particularly states; it states that the Qur’an confirms what went before it. First and most it does not confirm it, and secondly by making such a statement it states to cohere with the previous books when it was revealed; that is a problem for the Muslim yeah, but not for the Christian. Basically that is all the passage indicates.
Muslim 001 wrote:
If you Muhammad are in doubt regarding that which we have revealed to thee, ask THOSE who READ the BOOK from BEFORE YOU? (Sura 10:94).
To this question (if you are in doubt), tafseer books tell us that the prophet (PBUH) answered: I do not doubt and I will not ask. The questioning of the people of the book relates to the fact that Muhammad (PBUH) was mentioned in their books and they knew him ... same as the Jew knew Jesus the Messiah.
Elisha Kai replies:
But why are now turning to the words of men to explain the Qur'an, why does the Qur'an not make this statemen.
Let me challenge you can you show me anywhere in the Qur’anic text this is merely related to Muhammed? That is what is what we would like to see!
As to your reference to Jesus being the Messiah, well later in your reply you refer to the conclusion of theologians who do not believe the Bible to to reliable, and this supposedly confirms that the Bible is corrupted; well these do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah either, that is one of the reasons why they deem the Bible not to be trustworthy; just very interesting that you should at this point go against their views.
Muslim 001 wrote:
Actually, now that you have brought this up, if Muhammad (PBUH) wrote the Quran. What purpose would he achieve from showing himself questioning his own message ! Can you imagine a politician saying such a thing? It is rather an indication that the Quran was revealed to him.
Elisha Kai replies:
That is the irony of it right! I mean the four Gospels were the standard Gospels used over the world those days.
They do not, apart from the testimony of some Hadiths exist in Arabic in Muhammad’s time.
It is possible that the author of the Qur’an refers to a Gnostic Gospel, the Qur’an is virtually packed with Gnostic ideas, such as Jesus only appearing to die, which in Gnosticism was obvious and logical since Christ was purely divine, and Christ the divine aeon left the physical Jesus to suffer a painful death while he escaped back to the Pleroma (heaven).
Or the fact that Christ is the Word of Allah who proceeds from him, you find this in the Gospel of John in relation to the incarnation, but you certainly also find this in the Gnostic scriptures as divine emanations.
So whatever Gospel he would refer to here, yeah, that would slightly debunk his credibility.
However, if Muhammad did not have access to the Gospels, if in case he was illiterate and the Gospels did not exist in Arabic (I am not saying this is the case but if it was) is it not possible that he merely presumed that these previous writings agreed with his creation of the Qur’an.
Muslim 001 wrote:
You also said:
Here Qur'an confirms that the Torah and the Gospels are with the Jews and the Christians at Muhammad's time; now if these books were corrupted why does the Qur'anic passage not state it?
OK, then what about these ?
"Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allâh," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby." 2:79
Elisha Kai replies:
1. The proposition of the text would completely contradict history and history would in fact debunk the proposition of this passage (but lets leave that for now, we are simply looking at the Qur’an and the Bible)
2. The passage would contradict all other passages in the Qur?an that consider the integrity of the Gospel and the Torah.
3. The passage however refers to Jews, hence even though it presupposed corruption, it would presuppose only the corruption of the Torah; the Injeel would still be intact to prove the Qur’an wrong.
But then again the passage does not even indicate the corruption so often emphatically emphasised by Muslims; three points need to be considered:
1. The reference is not to a global corruption but a local
2. The corrupters are unlettered and do not even know Scripture, they guess? Obviously if they do not know Scripture, how can they corrupt it
3. They do not corrupt Scripture, they in fact fabricate Scripture; Scripture is still intact and exists
Muslim 001 wrote:
Those to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews and Christians) recognize him (Muhammad-peace be upon him) as they recognize their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - (i.e. the qualities of Muhammad (peace be upon him) which are written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel))
Elisha Kai replies:
Concealing is not corrupting, its hiding something, and obviously if they knew what was in the text as the passage also confirms, how can they corrupt it. In other words how can they conceal something that does not exist, and if the text is corrupted anyway, why conceal it?
Do you get my point here?
Muslim 001 wrote:
It is this particular condition of knowing the truth and hiding it that the Quran refers to in this verse:
Say, O people of the book! You are not founded on anything until you PERFORM the TORAH and the GOSPEL, and what was revealed to you from your Lord? (Sura 5:68-71)
Elisha Kai wrote:
first of all concealing the truth in which manner, define concealing and concealing what and how. Does the text say that they removed stuff from their books, not really? Look more into this; actually your reference to Sura 3: 78 explains the meaning.
Muslim 001 wrote:
This verse explicitly state how the "people of the book" were actively changing the scripture even at the time of the prophet:
Elisha Kai wrote:
Here you are referring to Sura 5: 68, how does Sura 5: 68 confirm Bible corruption; it confirms exactly the opposite; could you please elaborate on this? If they can conform the Torah and Injeel and follow it, in Muhammad’s lifetime how could it be corrupted at that point?
Muslim 001 wrote:
"
And verily, among them is a party who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read), so that you may think it is from the Book, but it is not from the Book, and they say: "This is from Allâh," but it is not from Allâh; and they speak a lie against Allâh while they know it." 3:78
Elisha Kai replies:
And how do they corrupt it, with their tongues, not by writing. Secondly if it is corrupted how can they true text as the passage also implies?
Muslim 001 wrote:
and you said:
A lesson to all you Muslim who criticise the Bible AND ITS TEACHINGS; the Qur'an does not permit it; so be good and obedient Muslims and exclaim what the Qur'an orders you to, that you believe in the Qur'an and the Bible and the same God.
Islam position on this is clear: the bible is God's word but not today's bible of which there are hundreds of versions, some of them contain circa 10 additional chapters compared to others. There is truth in the bible but the bible is not THE truth. Muslims dont criticise teachings of the bible unless it contradicts Islam. If anything, I'd argue that muslims today are better implementations of the bible than many Christians.
Elisha Kai replies:
If that is your proposition, you are not a Muslim, you need to check your heart and follow your prophet.
As to your reference to versions, these are mainly translations, not different Bibles. The only versions in Greek are is the early Western text and the early Alexandrian; these are not versions however, but Greek copying in which the one location was not particularly blessed with good copyist. If you compare these you may find that the bad copy differs in some words and significantly in spelling mistakes, but these are not different Bibles.
Furthermore this whole issue can be turned to your Qur’an as well.
It is extremely naïve to assume that the Qur’an is the criteria for truth in the Bible, much like a Bahai follower would base the Qur’an on teachings of his own book. Certainly that approach is both non logical and non academic.
Here you are reference is mere claims: the Bible is simply not the truth because the Qur’an does not agree. As I have pointed out then, you have a contradiction, since this same book, the Bible that contradicts the Qur’an is confirmed by the Qur’an, and that is a puzzle which you have not managed to fix!
Muslim 001 wrote:
Challenge 1:
[quote:aa2d6]If the Qur'an teaches Bible corruption, Muslims need to provide a passage from the Qur'an that teaches the Muslims explicitly to believe in the original Injeel, the first century, but reject the Injeel that existed in Muhammad's time. THE QUR'AN NEVER TEACHES THIS!!! In fact this claim contradicts the passages we have considered!
I dont know why you so prespective about Quran stating at which century the bible was changed. The bible was changed at the time of the prophet and actually it was being actively changed as well as indicated by the Quran. However, the passages that refer to prophet Muhammad (PBUH) were still there as the motivation for removing it was not present before. Other than that, I think I have answered you.[/quote:aa2d6]
Elisha Kai replies:
Could you please prove this for us from the Qur’an: BRING UP ANY SURA THAT VERIFIES YOUR CLAIM, A SURA THAT EXPLICITLY STATES THAT MUSLIMS ARE NOT TO BELIEVE THE PRESENT INJEEL, BUT INJEEL THAT WAS REVEALED IN ITS NON CORRUPT STATE
I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT PASSAGE
Muslim 001 wrote:
Challenge 2:
If the Muslim follows the modern myth of Bible corruption, Sura 4: 136 states that such a person has gone a stray and can therefore not be a true and good Muslim.
I think I have asnwered this as well. I believe in the bible, but the bible today is so many different books that even renowned Christian theologians do not consider it as an exact copy of the original.
Elisha Kai replies:
Unfortunately as you can see, you have not answered this well. I am not impressed, but then again I have been through all this probably over a hundred times.
If you were to apply the methods of these so called Christian theologians, I say 'so called' because most of them do not even believe in Jesus being a prophet or Messiah or in his ability to perform miracles; if you apply their methods to the Bible, by all means lets apply them to other books as well, such as the Qur’an and see how much of the Qur’an survives.
If we for example apply the theologian Sanders, his method focuses on removing theology from history, how would the Qur’an survive such an approach. Furthermore, according to these scholars the supernatural, whether revelations or miracles do not happen, this they consider corruption, in that case you cannot believe that the Qur'an is supernatural!
Muslim 001 wrote:
I wish you the best
Elisha Kai replies
Unfortunately I was not impressed with your reply, sorry, no offence I hope; I wish you the best too; may God Yahweh guide you
