Christian to everybody
Dr J Burton observed:
In Sura 53:19 we read 'Have you not considered al-latand al-Uzza and Manat the third other? This was followed by the words: 'verily they are the exalted maidens [Gharaniq, also translates them as cranes.] and there intercession is to be hoped for' (is approved in another version). The earliest authority on the life of Muhammad (ibn Hisham) asserts that ‘these words were uttered by Muhammad at the instigation of Satan' (Islam, pg. 189 and 'New light in the life of Muhammad, pg. 38)
One point that has quietly been forgotten in Islamic History lessons is the episode of Abd-Allah ibn-Abi-Sarh.
While Muhammad was dictating to him the passage beginning with sura 23:12 he was carried away in wonder at this description of the creation of man; and, when Muhammad paused after the words 'another creature' (he) exclaimed 'blessed be GOD, the best of creators'. Muhammad accepted this as the continuation of the revelation, and told him to write it down. (Introduction to the Quran, Richard Bell quoting from the commentaries of al-Baidawi and Zamakshari)
Abd-Allah went onto loose faith in Islam because of this incident and returned to Mecca! When the prophet Muhammad took Mecca it was known that he (Abd Allah) was wanted dead by the prophet! Only after the intercession of Uthman was he granted pardon!
This raises some interesting questions: Was Abd Allah a prophet as well as Muhammad? Hmmm…there’s a thought! Or has the Quran received interpolation, albeit of the most pious kind?
Also, as the prophet was 'revealing' surah 4:95 saying: ‘Those believers who sit at home are not equal to those who fight in the way of GOD with their goods and their persons'. A blind man is said to have interjected at this point, that if he were not blind he would fight as well, to which the prophet then added...'except those who suffer from a grave impediment' (Islam by A Guilaume p. 191)
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Christian to everybody
Adding further, to the discussion of the space for human error concerning the early textual form of the Quran, which was written in Kufic script, we note that:
Ahmed Von Denfer observed: 'The script used in the seventh century i.e. during the life time of the prophet Muhammad, consisted of very basic symbols, which expressed only the consonantal structure of a word (no vowels were written) and even that with much ambiguity. While today’s letters such as ba ta, tha, ya are easily distinguishable by points (diatrical marks, vocalisations) this was not so in the early days'
When Meccans created a script for their language they imported the Hira script, which was crude (and that is being generous,) so crude that 22 of the 28 letters were always uncertain, b, t, th, n, y were written exactly alike, as there were no diatrical marks to distinguish them! j, h, kh, were alike, as there were no diatrical marks to distinguish them! The result being that a trilateral word could be pronounced in as many as 69 different ways!
For example: BDR, could be filled thus: badr, bidr, budr, badar, bidar, budar, badran, badrin, badnun. Some of these meanings!
Badran = to a full moon
Badnin = with a full moon
Badnun = a full moon has
My point here is that, what ever you think of Muhammad, he never wrote a word of the Quran, and after he died, without compilation, without diatrical marks in the text, the Quran became the subject of forces all to human; for one to hold to the concept of Nazil. (That it is verbatim from Allah and without alteration via the hands of men.)
For men placed what they believed to be the correct vowels, and maybe in all piety tried to remain faithful, yet, they disagreed amongst themselves and still do.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Shia/theology.html
Furthermore words could be read active or passive, without the diatrical marks (which were added much later). Only a prophet could know for certain! No prophet was available at the time (GOD only knows where Abd Allahibn Abi Sarh was when you needed him) thus the whole thing is open to human error!
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Christian to everybody
A question upon the oneness of Allah, do you believe that the Quran is eternal? The Sunnah, of the Sunni at least, teaches that it is, however, if the Quran is eternal, like Allah, is this not shirk? After all, is shirk not ascribing partners to Allah, or giving Allah’s attributes to any other but Allah? Furthermore, if the Quran is eternal, is it eternal separate from Allah or as part of His essence/substance? Does it exist separate to or a part of the eternal nature of Allah?
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Bahai to everybody
As a Baha'i who accepts the Holy Quran and the Bible, let me say that while many Moslems argue about the received text of the Gospels it is more often the issue of how it is interpreted that comes up.
We Baha’is accept that the Gospels are accurate in so far as God would preserve it for the benefit of mankind.
The issue with the Qur'an, possibly being changed, that you bring up, is also held by many Shiah's who believe in the Qur'an! Such as it were manipulated to keep people from acknowledging the Imamate, the lawful line of descent from Imam Ali in their belief.
Baha'is however, accept the Quran as it is in its form today! Even Imam Ali recognized the Uthmani version, and although He probably was aware of variants kept silent about it for the sake of the unity of the believers.
The recitation of the Quran was an ongoing process, as it was revealed by the Prophet Muhammad! At Friday services the revelations were recited, as well as during the Ramadan season, in which the entire Quran up to that time was recited! So when the Quran was set to writing, it was essentially that which all of the Companions had memorized.
Remember that the Arabs of these days had exceptional memories, as they did not read and write as in later times. The Quran itself moulded the Arabic language and Moslems became among the most literate people on the earth prior to the fifteenth century; because they copied their own Quran and recited it from heart.
The diatrical marks came later as an aid for non-Arab Moslems to pronounce the text correctly, and therefore it is not a case of interpolation.
The text of the Quran has not changed from the Authorized Version accepted over the centuries. There are still today divisions among Christians as to what they accept as canon-scripture. Catholics accept the deuteron canonicals Protestants do not. Greek orthodox accept the Septuagint that has variations in the Psalms. Ethiopian Christians also accept a different canon that includes Enoch, and so on. So the Quran is accepted as it has been down through the centuries.
Baha'is were among the first to distribute the Bible in Iran in the mid nineteenth century on a large scale as they accepted it as Scripture. Baha'is also encourage people in the West to be educated about the Quran and to respect it.
The reference to the Eternal Book or the Mother Book (Ummu'l-Kitab) has confused some people and it is not really related to the accepted Quran I think. The Mother Book is "the Heavenly original of the Scriptures revealed to the prophets, inscribed on the Preserved Tablet..." See Qur'an 13:39 "With Him (God) is the Mother of the Book"
The Mother book, is also described as "the Book of Divine Knowledge and Foreordainment". It is the archetypal Book from which the Quran came and all revealed scriptures.
Baha'is believe Prophets (Rasuli) and Scriptures have been revealed since the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad and that He was the Seal of the age of prophecy, or Minor Prophets, such as you have in the Old Testament, aside from Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
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Jew to everybody
The diatrical marks came later as an aid for non-Arab Moslems to pronounce the text correctly and therefore it is not a case of interpolation.
Just a filler on the diatrical marks: there are two sorts of diatrical marks in Arabic script, and they are 1) the consonantal modifiers and the 2) vowel-signs. As Arabic was first written, many consonant pairs (or even threesomes or foursomes) were indistinct, such as sin and shin, or fa and qaf. In circa 700 the Umayyad governor of Iraq, Alhajjaaj ben Yusef, added those consonantal diatrical, those dots above or below the consonant letters. I’m unsure about the vowel-signs. Those diatrical marks are very important for correct reading: rahim meaning merciful and rajim meaning accursed are distinguished by the presence or the absence of a single dot under the second letter.
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Christian talking to Bahai
As a Baha'i who accepts Holy Qur'an and the Bible let me say that while many Moslems argue about the received text of the Gospels it is more often the issue of how it is interpreted that comes up.
We Baha'is accept that the Gospels are accurate in so far as God would preserve it for the benefit of mankind.
The issue with the Qur'an possibly being changed that you bring up is also held by many Shiah's who believe Qur'an and such were manipulated to keep people from acknowledging the Imamate, the lawful line of descent from Imam Ali in their belief.
Baha'is however accept Qur'an as it is in it's form today... Even Imam Ali recognized the Uthmani version and although He probably was aware of variants kept silent about it for the sake of the unity of the believers.
The recitation of the Qur'an was an ongoing process as it was revealed by Prophet Muhammad....every Friday service the Revelations were recited as well as during the Ramadan season the entire Qur'an up to that time was recited... So when Qur'an was set to writing it was essentially that which all of the Companions had memorized.
Remember that Arabs of these days had exceptional memories as they did not read and write as in later times... The Qur'an itself moulded Arabic language and Moslems became among the most literate people on the earth prior to the fifteenth century because they copied their own Quran and recited it from heart.
The diacritical marks came later as an aid for non-Arab Moslems to pronounce the text correctly and therefore it is not a case of interpolation.
The text of the Quran has not changed from the authorised version accepted over the centuries. There are still today divisions among Christians as to what they accept as canon scripture. Catholics accept the deuterocanonicals, Protestants do not. Greek orthodox accepts the Septuagint that has variations in the Psalms. Ethiopian Christians also accept a different canon, which includes Enoch, and so on. So the Quran is accepted as it has been down through the centuries.
Baha'is were among the first to distribute the Bible in Iran in the mid nineteenth century on a large scale as they accepted it as Scripture. Baha'is also encourage people in the West to be educated about the Qur'an and to respect it.
The reference to the Eternal Book or the Mother Book (Ummu'l-Kitab) has confused some people and it is not really related to the accepted Quran I think. The Mother Book is "the Heavenly original of the Scriptures revealed to the prophets, inscribed on the Preserved Tablet..." See Qur'an 13:39 "With Him (God) is the Mother of the Book"
The Mother book is also described as "the Book of Divine Knowledge and Foreordainment". It is the archetypal Book from which the Qur'an came and all revealed scriptures.
Baha'is believe Prophets (Rasuli) and Scriptures have been revealed since the dispensation of Prophet Muhammad and that He was the Seal of the age of prophecy or minor prophets such as you have in the Old Testament aside from Abraham, Moses and Jesus.
The site reference on the Sammarkand text noted above doesn’t seem to work.
Anyway, blessings to all and my fervent prayer is that Moslems and Christians can someday be reconciled.
Hey thanks, I've met with the Bahais where I live, and am the proud owner of some of your scripture! However, I do want to 'correct' one small point, to compare the Quran and the Holy Bible to one another is in my humble opinion to do an injustice to both religions! For we believe in different forms of revelation! No direct comparisons can be made, the closest thing in Islam to The Holy Bible is the Hadiths, however, it is better to avoid making such comparisons as one religion or both end up being distorted! May GOD one day liberate both our peoples from the persecution that they are receiving in Iran!
