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The rapsure and the 1st resurrection

I

I Reckon Sow

Guest
1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Everyone ive ever heard agrees that the above scripture points out the time of the first resurrection, when the dead shall be raised.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Here again we see the first resurrection. What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast†youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period. Right? Or wrong?
 
Since ive recieved no answers to this question, i thought it would be fair to post REZ's answer to this question from a different thread

1 COR. 15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

ME- Everyone ive ever heard agrees that the above scripture points out the time of the first resurrection, when the dead shall be raised.

REZ-The dead will be raised from where? Are you talking about a now dead body? If so how do you reconcile the fact that many bodies of christians are no longer in one piece or one place? So what is going to be raised?

ME- Dont you believe your bible Rez? The DEAD WILL BE RAISED, no matter what you think or reason.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I SAW THE SOULS OF THEM that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and WHICH HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST, NEITHER HIS IMAGE, NEITHER HAD RECEIVED HIS MARK UPON THEIR FOREHEADS, OR IN THEIR HANDS; AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. [5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

ME-Here again we see the first resurrection. THIS SCRIPTURE SAYS THAT! What we find here are peoples who did not take the mark of the beast PRIOR to the first resurrection. The same resurrection spoken of in 1Cor.15. So if those who are in the 1st resurrection had confronted the “beast†youve got to know that they went through the tribulation period. Right REZ ole boy?

REZ- COR was written by Paul and he was no prophet and never even met Jesus. Paul may have been present at the stoning of Stephen and may have even participated. Revelation as I said was written by an old man exiled for years on an island with very little contact with other humans. It's not a stretch to wonder what his state of mind was when he wrote those words.

ME- Rez??? It wasnt the revelation of John. It was the Revelation of JESUS, given to John. Are you again questioning scripture in order to hold on to your rap t sure? So Rez, whose writings in the bible do you think are bogus?Pauls or Johns?

REZ- Why a thousand years? Why not ten thousand years? Why would a creator of the universe concern himself with imparting propecies like that? Why play games with his underlings?Why does Jesus need to REIGN? If we are all going to be changed in a twinkling then we should all be of like mind. To REIGN means to keep order and if that is needed that means we will have free will to dissent, object and get into trouble. As I see it nothings changed.

ME- Well... here it is from a rapturist. He dont believe in Pauls writings. He dont believe in the revelation of Jesus, which was given to John. He dont believe in the written Word about the 1000 yr period of rest. He dont believe that Jesus will reign.

LAST BUT NOT LEAST, he sees nothing has changed! Theres still gonna be a rapture.

YIKES
 
2 Thes. 2:11
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
 
Heres the timeline that 99% of christians beleive

The tribulation period (devils work)
The Day of the Lord (Gods wrath)
The 1000 yr period of rest

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

In Isaiah we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child†in both scriptures. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both scriptures. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the WHAT FOR in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.

So its pretty easy to figure out. 1 THES 4 is speaking of the DAY OF THE LORD. Gods wrath against the bad guys. Not 7 yrs prior to that time and not 3 and a half years prior to that time. Its after the tribulation period. PERIOD!
 
I again will wait a few days for the rapturist to bebunk the scriptures ive given but as before there will be no answes givin by them. At least not scriptural.

But to them, (as REZ has stated) nothing has changed. It doesnt matter what scripture says. THERES STILL GONNA BE A RAP t SURE.
 
Mark 13:14 ¶ But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not,

This should really read desolator which means when you see him who claims he is god or equal to him standing where he shouldn't be - the temple of God in Jerusalem, the time has come.

I was gonna add here another verse but its late and ill get bac to it later!
Anyways within a twinkling of an eye, anyone one who knows no man can be god (even Christ himself said he does the Fathers will) that anti-christ has returned and is in power. All will know who he is for who he is! Somewhere it says in scripture nuthin like a rapture will happen till then. Till the man of sin be revealed! It also says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord, thats both good and bad people!

Mark 13:19-23 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

Heres the tribulation of tribulations where Satan calling himself god, makes all recognize him as god or - well every dies! Which is why we shouldn't be deceived and be looking for a false christ or the ez way to temporary peace!
Or wonders made through occult and material illusions! I used to somewhat believe in the rapture, but I'm not as sure now, I know something will happen when Lucifer reveals himself! Anyways After this ->

Mark 13:24-26 ¶ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. Which is why John Said this ->

Revelation 1:9-10 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ ... I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day!

Those are my thoughts on it! Noone replied so now ur not lonely. Could say more but its late and time 2 go!



[/i]
 
I Reckon Sow said:
Heres the timeline that 99% of christians beleive

The tribulation period (devils work)
The Day of the Lord (Gods wrath)
The 1000 yr period of rest

I'm in the 1%, Jewish eschatology pretty much defines the Day of the Lord as the "Last Week of 7 years, and the Messianic Kingdom period" inclusive.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

No it doesn't...1 Thess 4:18 causes the break for Paul to go back and start the next sequence (or the same from a different perspective. In Thes 5, Paul goes back and explains that the destructive part of the "Day of the Lord" comes upon those not aware. I agree that the events happen during the period "Day of the Lord" however, "Day" in Judaism can mean "Day, Days, years".

From Strong's definition of "Day" in Hebrew...

1) day, time, year

a) day (as opposed to night)

b) day (24 hour period)

1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1

2) as a division of time

a) a working day, a day's journey

c) days, lifetime (pl.)

d) time, period (general)

e) year

f) temporal references

1) today

2) yesterday

3) tomorrow


And so you can see that "Day of the Lord" doesn't necessarily mean a 24 hour period.....The Day of the Lord in the broadest sense is the Messianic Kingdom period, including it's bithpains. However, it is known the sequence of events that occur in order that are included in that period. In other words, to the Jew reading these passages that include Language such as "Woman with Child" etc, they would know that it would happen during that period of the Day of the Lord that initiates the Messianic Kingdom period.

*Personally, I believe that the resurrection/rapture will happen 7 days before the 2nd coming of Messiah...This would occur prior to the greatest intesity of the labor pains...


ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

A very important verse....this is wedding day terminology. In ancient Israel, the wedding couple would enter the bridal chamber for 7 days before they were seen in public again. This would correspond to a resurrection/rapture 7 days prior to the Messiah's return in Rev 19. It is part of the Day of the Lord in Jewish eschatological terms. But, Day of the Lord covers more than a 24 hour period.

In Isaiah we find scriptural proof that 1Thes.4 and 1Thes.5 belong together like a horse and carriage. You find “women with child†in both scriptures. You find the dead rising in the 1st resurrection in both scriptures. Lastly you find the bad guys gettin the WHAT FOR in both scriptures. Yup. The Day of the Lord.

So its pretty easy to figure out. 1 THES 4 is speaking of the DAY OF THE LORD. Gods wrath against the bad guys. Not 7 yrs prior to that time and not 3 and a half years prior to that time. Its after the tribulation period.

Not quite, close though, you/me/everyone has to study it from a "Jewish" perpective to get a better idea of the timing...The Feast Days and Wedding ceremony tradition help a tremendous amount in getting this straightened out.

PERIOD!
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Glad to see you using OT scripture....
 
I have only 8 mins & no Bible, but you ned to read further into 1 Thessalonians 5

It says clearly that we who love the Lord are not destined to go through the day/time/period of God's wrath & judgment, but be saved from it, as in the instant airlift Rapture rescue of 1 Thessalonians 4, as Jesus promised in Matthew 24:30/31 - where He also explained that this rescue would cut short this claimax generation of all history, otherwise no flesh would survive
It's because of the promised Rapture that, when He prophesied the terrible birthpains, He could say, "Don't be afraid..don't be alarmed..trust in God..trust in Me"

In Revelation, after the Rapture of Rev 4:1, those who love Jesus are in Heaven while the judgements are poured out on the wicked on Earth

Jews & others will then come to faith in Christ & preach God's Word, it is THEY who go thru the Great Tribulation
 
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
Isaiah 13:11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

Joel 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joel 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

I understand the above verses to be a sign for when God's Wrath, The Day of the Lord, begins. Correct me if I'm wrong. Kind of hard not to come to this conclusion since the passages actually say The Day of the Lord is at hand.

Both passages say it is the wicked who suffer, so where are the the OT and NT saints being persecuted if this period of time is also the Great Tribulation? It just doesn't make sense from a Biblical point of view.

Jesus says:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

This event sound so much like the cosmic events described in the passages above.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days..."

If the verse says, "after the Tribulation" (and it does) and the OT verses I pointed out say the Day of the Lord begins right after these cosmic disturbances, I must conclude the Great Trib and the Day of the Lord are two different events.

George, we have something the Hebrews didn't have, we have Jesus describing the events of the Great Tribulation. Matter of fact, the word tribulation is only mentioned three times in the OT. Check them out.

Also, we have Jesus telling us about the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15. We know this to be the aprox. midpoint of Daniel's 70th. week.

Now watch this:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

People, how can the Great Trib be a seven year event, when Scripture shows us it starts at or right after the midweek abomination of desolation?



In Revelation, after the Rapture of Rev 4:1, those who love Jesus are in Heaven while the judgements are poured out on the wicked on Earth
Click to expand...

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

I see nothing in this verse that mentions anything about Christ's ekklesia being "raptured". That is, without speculating or reading into it more than what it says.
 
vic said:
George, we have something the Hebrews didn't have, we have Jesus describing the events of the Great Tribulation. Matter of fact, the word tribulation is only mentioned three times in the OT. Check them out.

I think Jesus and the Prophets and John are in complete agreement with each other..

Also, we have Jesus telling us about the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15. We know this to be the aprox. midpoint of Daniel's 70th. week.

Now watch this:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

People, how can the Great Trib be a seven year event, when Scripture shows us it starts at or right after the midweek abomination of desolation?

Personally, I'm at the point right now that I'm not sure mainstream Christianity comes into play. I'm almost convinced that the resurrected/raptured will be Torah observant Christians. There is alot of information in Judaism to suggest that it's a Jewish thing (Actually a Jewish/Messiah believing thing). However, being a Christian, I have the ability to apply Jesus to their eschatology.

I'm a 7-10 day before the 2nd coming rapture/resurrection guy.....I think based on the Jewish Feast day system that the rapture/resurrected will be in heaven for the 7 days that the big time wrath events occur....or I should say the culimnation of the labor pains. Still, the last 7 years will be marked by events that indicate the begining of the pains...i.e. false messiah coming to power....

In Revelation, after the Rapture of Rev 4:1, those who love Jesus are in Heaven while the judgements are poured out on the wicked on Earth
Click to expand...

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter.

I see nothing in this verse that mentions anything about Christ's ekklesia being "raptured". That is, without speculating or reading into it more than what it says.

Vic, it is quite possible that Revelation is made of concurrent (not sequential) timelines. I believe it is concurrent. I need to look into Rev 4:1 (a Rosh Hashannah passage) and see if it works in the timeframe I mentioned above. That is 7 days before the second coming. That would of course mirror the Jewish wedding ceremony of the 7 days in the Bridal Chamber.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Guys!

I really must apologise, as I'm feeling quite ill & this noisy central library sure doesn't help concentration

My last post was rushed to beat autologout, George: the salient point @ Rev 4:1 is not just the clear separation of God-worshippers from Beast-worshippers after it, but that the famous letters to the 7 representative churches, Rev 2-3, come just before it

It is quite extraordinary how subsequent history has proved that each of the 7 letters, in turn, accurately reflect the typical church in each intervening period in order

We are now in the Laodicean period, where the lukewarmness of most churches, & of most folk who call themselves Christian, makes God sick, so He calls us to 'Be zealous & repent' before He removes the candlestick of His light from us

As to sequence in Revelation, it's a book that has more than one layer of meaning: Rev 6 is kinda summarising all that happens from that point

But see the typical pattern of escalation that is prophesied

In Rev 6:8, 25% of mankind die from the notorious '4 horsemen of the Apocalypse' - war, famine, pestilence & the wild beasts of the Earth

In Rev 8:13-18, 33% of survivors die in war begun at R Euphrates

Rev 16-19 parallels the total Armageddon prophecies of Joel 3, Daniel 7, Isaiah 24, Matt 24 & Zechariah 14

OP & elsewhere make the mistake of equating 2 separate prophetic events

"Every eye shall see Him...as lightning shines from east to west" is when He comes right back to Earth to fight & win Armageddon - when Earth's armies, under Antichrist, dare to invade His Holy Land & attack His Holy City

The instant airlift is earlier - when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye - as fast as you can blink - to 'meet the Lord IN THE AIR & SO FOREVER BE WITH THE LORD'

That is when we shall be like Him - given the same type of Resurrection body as in 1 Cor 15:51-58

We go straight back to Heaven with Him then

Must go!

Ian
 
I Wrote
Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Georges wrote
No it doesn't...1 Thess 4:18 causes the break for Paul to go back and start the next sequence (or the same from a different perspective. In Thes 5, Paul goes back and explains that the destructive part of the "Day of the Lord" comes upon those not aware. I agree that the events happen during the period "Day of the Lord" however, "Day" in Judaism can mean "Day, Days, years".

Hi Georges
First all i wanna say that i know the "Day of the Lord" doesnt last one day. Scripture points out it will last a year. But getting back to 1 Thes.4.

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Zeph. 1 clearly states its the Day of the Lord. Which ofcourse follows the trib period. 7 years of trib? No where in scripture will you find the trib lasting 7 yrs. The Daniels 70 week theory is just that. Very, very weak.
 
No where in scripture will you find the trib lasting 7 yrs. The Daniels 70 week theory is just that. Very, very weak.
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I agree, IRS. 8-) (please excuse the acronym)

Daniel 9:27 states there is a covenant at the beginning on the week. We believe that to be a sort of "peace" covenant. So where is there any sort of Tribulation at the beginning of Daniel's 70th. week during this short time of peace? Scripture shows it starts "in the midst of the week", so by default, the Trib period cannot be seven years in length. It can't even be 3 1/2 years, since Jesus says this period will be cut short. This leaves time for The Wrath of God (Day of the Lord).

So, how did a seven year Tribulation period creep into one's eschatology? The link Judy posted in another thread touches on this.

Chuck Smith:
There's a debate in theological circles as to whether or not the Church will be here when God's wrath is unleashed upon the earth. Many are saying the Church must go through this time period of judgment known as the Great Tribulation.

Rebuttal:
(Primary assumption: the wrath of God and “the Great Tribulation†are the same. Whether in ignorance or a blatant attempt to prejudice the reader, Pastor Smith is very misleading. While posttribbers teach that the church is on the earth during the Great Tribulation, they teach that the church is protected from God’s wrath. Therefore, I am not sure of whom Pastor Smith speaks, here.)

Chuck Smith:
They speak disparagingly of the blessed hope that Christ will come for His Church before God's judgments are loosed upon the earth. Since they maintain that there's to be no escape for the Church, they make the prayer Christ encouraged us to pray in Luke 21:36 meaningless.

Rebuttal:
(This is an assumption without biblical support. More importantly, this same information is regarded as written to Jews in Matthew, but to the Church in Luke. This is an excellent example of having your cake and eating it too. To avoid contradictions, the pretribber must be consistent. Therefore, nothing in Matthew, Mark and Luke refers to the rapture because the Olivet Discourse is not written to the church, but to Israel.)
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http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=23110
http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/06/ ... apture.php
 
I Reckon Sow said:
Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Zeph. 1 clearly states its the Day of the Lord. Which ofcourse follows the trib period. 7 years of trib? No where in scripture will you find the trib lasting 7 yrs. The Daniels 70 week theory is just that. Very, very weak.

I have no problem with the 2 describing the same period.
Click to expand...

Of course I'll suggest that a last 7 year period comes from Judaism.

Sanhedrin 97a states:

The rabbis taught: In this Sabbatic period in which the son of David will appear in the first year there will be fulfilled what is written, in [Amos, iv. 7]: "And I caused it to rain upon one city, and upon another city I caused it not to rain." In the second year, arrows (tokens) of famine will be sent. In the third, a great famine, from which men, women, and children, pious men and men of good deeds will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by their scholars. In the fourth there will be abundance, and not abundance. In the fifth there will be great abundance, and the people will eat, drink, and enjoy themselves, and the Torah will return to her scholars. In the sixth, voices will be heard saying that the Messiah is near. In the seventh, war will be, and at the end of the seventh, ben David will come.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t08/t0814.htm#page_296

Of course this is seen from a Jewish perspective concerning Jews.....but if must have some merit. It may be weak....very weak....but if Jewish sources comfirm a 7 year period known as the footsteps of the Messiah...I would sit up and take notice.
 
Georges said:
I Reckon Sow said:
Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Zeph. 1 clearly states its the Day of the Lord. Which ofcourse follows the trib period. 7 years of trib? No where in scripture will you find the trib lasting 7 yrs. The Daniels 70 week theory is just that. Very, very weak.

I have no problem with the 2 describing the same period.
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Of course I'll suggest that a last 7 year period comes from Judaism.

Sanhedrin 97a states:

The rabbis taught: In this Sabbatic period in which the son of David will appear in the first year there will be fulfilled what is written, in [Amos, iv. 7]: "And I caused it to rain upon one city, and upon another city I caused it not to rain." In the second year, arrows (tokens) of famine will be sent. In the third, a great famine, from which men, women, and children, pious men and men of good deeds will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by their scholars. In the fourth there will be abundance, and not abundance. In the fifth there will be great abundance, and the people will eat, drink, and enjoy themselves, and the Torah will return to her scholars. In the sixth, voices will be heard saying that the Messiah is near. In the seventh, war will be, and at the end of the seventh, ben David will come.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t08/t0814.htm#page_296

Of course this is seen from a Jewish perspective concerning Jews.....but if must have some merit. It may be weak....very weak....but if Jewish sources comfirm a 7 year period known as the footsteps of the Messiah...I would sit up and take notice.
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And this is why the Dispey believes in the Rapture. The 7 year trib period is for the Jew, the Dispey will reply, and the Church IS NOT Israel, the Dispey will also reply.

jm
 
JM said:
Georges said:
I Reckon Sow said:
Seems the 2 above scriptures are speaking of the same event. The Day of the Lord. Zeph. 1 clearly states its the Day of the Lord. Which ofcourse follows the trib period. 7 years of trib? No where in scripture will you find the trib lasting 7 yrs. The Daniels 70 week theory is just that. Very, very weak.

I have no problem with the 2 describing the same period.
Click to expand...

Of course I'll suggest that a last 7 year period comes from Judaism.

Sanhedrin 97a states:

The rabbis taught: In this Sabbatic period in which the son of David will appear in the first year there will be fulfilled what is written, in [Amos, iv. 7]: "And I caused it to rain upon one city, and upon another city I caused it not to rain." In the second year, arrows (tokens) of famine will be sent. In the third, a great famine, from which men, women, and children, pious men and men of good deeds will die, and the Torah will be forgotten by their scholars. In the fourth there will be abundance, and not abundance. In the fifth there will be great abundance, and the people will eat, drink, and enjoy themselves, and the Torah will return to her scholars. In the sixth, voices will be heard saying that the Messiah is near. In the seventh, war will be, and at the end of the seventh, ben David will come.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/t08/t0814.htm#page_296

Of course this is seen from a Jewish perspective concerning Jews.....but if must have some merit. It may be weak....very weak....but if Jewish sources comfirm a 7 year period known as the footsteps of the Messiah...I would sit up and take notice.
Click to expand...

And this is why the Dispey believes in the Rapture.

The Dispey believes in the Rapture because of the language Paul uses, the connection with the wedding day sequence that suggest's it. Righteous men in the Bible have been raptured (that is bodily translated/transported). Paul suggests a rapture that coincides with a resurrection. According to the book "Everyman's Talmud" (a good source to have for reference, and it's cheap), just before the Messianic Kingdom comes, Elijah ressurects the dead and announces the Messiah. That supports Elijah as one of the 2 witnesses in Rev.

That is also why I suggest a 7 day before the 2nd coming rapture/resurrection. It also coincides with the Yom Kippur 2nd coming of the Messiah.

The 7 year trib period is for the Jew, the Dispey will reply,

I will suggest it's for both.

and the Church IS NOT Israel, the Dispey will also reply.

I agree with that.....the Church of the Tribulation period may be Mystery Babylon...the true church will be a Torah abiding Messiah believin congregation...along the lines of the 144000.

jm
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me in red.
 
vic said:
Daniel 9:27 states there is a covenant at the beginning on the week. We believe that to be a sort of "peace" covenant. So where is there any sort of Tribulation at the beginning of Daniel's 70th. week during this short time of peace? Scripture shows it starts "in the midst of the week", so by default, the Trib period cannot be seven years in length. It can't even be 3 1/2 years, since Jesus says this period will be cut short. This leaves time for The Wrath of God (Day of the Lord).

So, how did a seven year Tribulation period creep into one's eschatology? The link Judy posted in another thread touches on this.
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Ultimately, the problem lies in taking the 70th week out of the context Daniel and those reading it would understand. To apply 69 weeks to the time of Daniel and then remove the 70th week 3000 years in the future is to completely distort the historical context of the passage.

Contextually, the whole point of Daniel 9 addresses two things:

1) The probation put upon the Jews to make things right
2) To anoint the most high

The Jews were in Babylonian captivity and Daniel is standing in the gap before God to plead on their behalf as to when it would all end and deliverance would come. God gives Daniel '70 weeks of years' or 490 years that are 'determined upon thy people'.

This takes one down to the crucifixion of Jesus where 'sacrifice and oblation would cease' and the Messiah is anointed and 'cut off' in the middle of the week. When Christ died, the probation for the Jews ended and they were no longer God's people. Their time as a nation of God had ended when they rejected and crucified the Messiah.

It all points to a Christiological fulfillment, not in some futuristic tribulation period.
Daniel 9 is basically an answer to the events related to the sanctuary in Daniel 8:1-14.

Read the following...

'The daily' [hatamid] taken / lifted away in Daniel 8:10-13 is explicated by the 'sacrifice and oblation' brought to an end in Daniel 9:27. The 'transgression making desolate' in Daniel 8:13; 11:31 is explicated by 'the transgression' to be finished (9:24) and the 'abominations of a desolator on the outskirts' in Daniel 9:27. The 'vindication [nitzedaq] of the sanctuary' of Daniel 8:14 is explicated by the Jubilee Day of Atonement establishment of everlasting Covenant righteousness (tzedeq) of Daniel 9:24 which includes finishing the transgression, making an end of sins, atoning for iniquity and anointing the Most Holy (cf. Lev. 16; 25-26) all associated with Messiah a prince. - Jesus Institute Forums.org
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Daniel 9:24 explains the 'vindication of the sanctuary' of Daniel 8:14. Five elements in Dan. 9:24, (1) transgression [pesha‘ = revolt], (2) sins [khatam], (3) iniquity ['avon], (4) atonement [kaphar], and Most Holy [qodesh qadashim] are all found together in only one other place in the Old Testament, in the Day of Atonement of Leviticus 16. This constitutes evidence that the fulfillment of the antitypical Jubilee Day of Atonement was prophesied to occur during the 70 'weeks.'
* 16.    The final 70th 'week' or 'seven' of Covenant confirmation in Daniel 9 is a full Covenant Sabbatical 'week'/'seven' very similar to the Covenant confirmation of 'seven times' to Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 4. The broken Covenant seven or 'time, times, and half a time' (3 ½ times) denoting the eschatological work of incarnational evil in Daniel 7 and 12 is explicated and given a Covenant-chronological anchor only in the broken seven from 'the half of the week' when the 'sacrifice and oblation' cease and 'on the outskirts [are] the abominations of a desolator ... even until the end' (Daniel 9:27). This motif is alluded to in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Mark 13=Matt. 24=Luke 21) and cited explicitly in Revelation as extending from the Christ event until just before the Advent-Parousia (Rev. 11-14). The 3 ½  times (1260 days or 42 months) are the only time period of Daniel explicitly imported into the New Testament, although the '2300 evening-mornings' are also implied.
ibid...
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