The Rapture and the Law

[RandyK]

A person asked:
Seeing many people today dispute the doctrine of the rapture, would anyone here therefore like to explain the prophecy of the rapture which is revealed in the law?

I watched yet another movie last night in which the "Rapture" was referred to as the hope of the Church. It is usually depicted when named "the Rapture" as an any-moment, Pretribulation Rapture of the Church.

What the Law depicts, with respect to this event, is the need for all men in Israel, and by extention in all the world, to die. The sacrificed animals depict the fact that all Israel deserved to die under the Law, which had been put in place by God to represent the curse that initially was delivered to Adam and Eve as a punishment for disobeying God's command. Since the Law exposes all men as sinners, all must die in accordance with the Law.

And so, the Law was given to foreshadow the hope of Israel to overcome death, which is what Paul meant by reiterating Christ's promise to Return and to have God's angels regather us, both living and dead. The dead will be resurrected, and those still living at this time will probably go through a one second period of leaving the body and ascending into the sky to join Christ in this glorification event.

I think, pretty much, those alive and remaining will go through something like a quick "death," the spirit departing the body just as a person's spirit departs the body at death. Instead of bodies flying into the sky, the bodies will probably be left behind as the angels seize the spirits of surviving Christians across the earth.

This "seizure" is what is commonly called "the Rapture," although it does not take place "at any time," but only at the moment Christ returns to defeat the Antichrist. See 2 Thessalonians 2.

It is a "taking" of our spirits in order to be joined, in the clouds, with new glorified bodies. It is not an escape from a "7 year Tribulation period." The Reign of Antichrist is not called, in the Bible, "the Tribulation Period," nor does his reign last 7 years--it lasts only 3.5 years.

The "Tribulation Period," referred to by Jesus, is actually the "Jewish Diaspora," which had only begun in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It will end when Christ comes back, delivers Israel, politically, from the nations, and establishes his Kingdom through the reign of the Church on earth.

At that time not just Israel will be restored, but many Christian nations, as well. Those not yet following the Lord fully, including many nominal Christians, will come to know the Lord more fully at this time. Those who had been fully following the Lord will be glorified at Christ's Coming to reign, I believe, over the earth from heaven with Christ.

And no nation on earth will be allowed for a thousand years to disrupt nations of God until a final rebellion from Satan takes place at the end of this thousand year period. Yes, I'm a Premillennialist and a Postribulationist. There are other views, and I would invite any and all to determine for themselves what they believe the Bible actually teaches.

 

[JLB]

This "seizure" is what is commonly called "the Rapture," although it does not take place "at any time," but only at the moment Christ returns to defeat the Antichrist. See 2 Thessalonians 2.

Amen.

 

[JLB]

The "Tribulation Period," referred to by Jesus, is actually the "Jewish Diaspora," which had only begun in the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. It will end when Christ comes back, delivers Israel, politically, from the nations, and establishes his Kingdom through the reign of the Church on earth.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

 

[for_his_glory]

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51-58. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:
1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery
2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. To snatch out or away

The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

 

[hawkman]

The Rapture and the Law​

I think if I am flying through the air the FAA will not have any jurisdiction .

 

[RandyK]

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

Yes, and this should be read right next to Luke's version for a better understanding....

Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

I had this so messed up for so many years! Then one day the penny dropped! This is the historic position, held by the early Church Fathers, that Dan 9.26-27 and the Olivet Discourse was a Jewish Prophecy, focused on the destiny of Israel in the NT era. I know this is often associated with Preterism, but it isn't. It is just an historical prophecy anticipating the Jewish experience in the entire NT era.

The Jews met, in the 1st century, the Roman Army, the "people of the ruler to come," the "Abomination of Desolation." And from that time on, the Jews no longer had Temple Worship, nor did they have their Covenant of Law any longer.

I don't think the Church Fathers retained much hope that the Jewish nation would be reconstituted, but in our day that hope has reemerged. And it seems that God will keep His promises to Israel after all? This is not, by the way, to the exclusion of other nations who have adopted the Lord as their God.

If you will notice in Luke's version that the "great distress" is the same "great tribulation" that Matthew made reference to. These are not two different discourses being referenced in Matthew and in Luke. They are the same. It's just that in our time we've been inundated with Dispensationalism to the point where we cannot read Matthew's version any longer without thinking it identifies the AoD as the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation as the Reign of Antichrist.

But as always, I'm just sharing my opinion, and won't hold it against anybody for being a Dispensationalist or thinking different. I have different reasons for liking Dispensationalism because I don't think Darby had it all wrong. I'm indebted to him for reemphasizing Futurism and Premillennialism in our day, and for reconsidering the possility that Israel will be restored as a nation of God.

Whatever your view is, and however you view this passage, know that the most important thing with me is that we have a genuine faith, imitate Christ's moral standards, and listen to God's word spoken into our heart every day. God bless!

 

[RandyK]

The word Rapture is not found in scripture as scripture calls it being caught up at the last trump, meaning the seventh trumpet of God, 1 Corinthians15:51-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Rev 14:6-20 is the precursor for the catching up of the saints that makes up the true body of Christ. This is separating the wheat from the tares or in other words saints from sinners as sinners being those who have taken the mark of the beast in Rev 13. Christ is sending the angels to separate the wheat from the tares to protect His own in safety from the seven vial judgments that will take place, Rev 15:1-8; 16:1-21.

After mystery Babylon is revealed and then destroyed, Rev Chapters 17, 18, heaven rejoices her destruction as the beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire. It is not until we read in Rev 19 of Christ second coming as we, His Bride, have prepared ourselves, those in the grave and we that are still alive, to be caught up together to the clouds and given our new glorified bodies as we are arrayed in fine linen, clean and white then meet Christ in the air, 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1Corinthians 15:51-58. We are then joined to our Groom (Jesus) for the marriage supper (union) of the Lamb and His Bride. Fine linen means we are now arrayed in Gods righteousness.

Rev Chapters 19, 20 we the saints of God then come down to earth with Him as Jesus plants His feet on the Mount of Olives, Zechariah 14:4, to fight the final battle as He smites the nations and now rules over them. Jesus then binds Satan for a time (I don’t believe in a literal 1000 years, but only being symbolic in numbering) as then he will be loosed for awhile to try and attack the saints of God that are encamped in Gods protection. Jesus will then cast Satan into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet that has caused a great falling away, 2Thessalonians 2:3. Then comes Gods final judgment on those who have rejected Christ and they are then cast into the lake of fire for their names were not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev Chapter 20. Heaven and earth are restored and the New Jerusalem is ushered down and we are with the Lord for eternity.

Reference:
Genesis Chapter 49; Deuteronomy 31:28-30; Jeremiah 30:18-24; Daniel 12:1-4; Matthew 24:21-31; 25:31-33; John 6:37-40; Revelation 14:11-16
Reference to symbolic numbering of 1000) - Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.

The word Rapture is found nowhere in any scripture or in any concordances or Bible dictionaries. Some people have taken the transliterate word of the Greek, Harpazo, to mean Rapture, but the definition of this word is:
1. To seize, carry off by force, obtain by robbery
2. To seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
3. To snatch out or away

The Latin word rapio is where the word Rapture came from as it means to be seized or snatched up. No where in scripture does it say we will be seized or snatched up as we are obtained by robbery. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after receiving our new glorified bodies that will be like Jesus and will evermore be with Him on the last day, John 6:40. It's no secret quiet rapture as many teach as the voice and the sound of a trumpet during the last day will be very loud and every eye will see Jesus return so it doesn't sound like we are seized or snatched up from the earth as God sends His angels out to gather the saints of God from the four corners of the earth, Rev 1:7; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18; Matthew 24:29-31.

The "Left Behind" kind of scenarios would have us believe that naked bodies of Christians leave their clothes behind as they take a flight up into the clouds to meet the Lord in heaven. This is embarrasing to me as a Christian to put this kind of Sci Fi entertainment in front of the world, expecting them to buy into this!

The last hour of this age will probably see the world bunkered down in the face of a nuclear war, world-wide. By this time, many nominal Christians will have exposed their religion as faith-less. True Christianity will have been persecuted and driven underground, to some degree.

Those remaining alive, therefore, will not leave their clothes behind when God takes them! ;) No, in less than a second their spirits will leave their bodies as corpses on the ground, just as if they had been killed, and in the same second they will take up dwelling in new glorified, sinless bodies. In these kinds of bodies we will likely be able to operate like angels until the end of the Millennial Age, judging the world from heaven in such a way as to preserve the peace against any satanic influences.

Remember, Enoch's "Rapture" and Elijah's "Rapture" represented a tiny minority of believers. Elijah at one point thought he alone was left to operate in faith.

So in the last hour there will be a relatively small number of believers who will be instantly glorified, as I indicated. And they will be marked as dead. All must "die" in some way. But those who survive to the end will die and rise in the same second of time without the lingering pain of death.

Remember how Moses went at the end of his ministry. God just sort of "took him," although it is clear that his corpse was left behind.

Deut 34.5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

For me, then, the "Rapture" is a poor representation of "harpazo," which is more like God is going to "grab" those of us who survive in the last hour, to deliver us from the conflagration. It will even be like a death more than a rapturous moment...at least until in the next moment we find ourselves in glorified bodies.

We can leave evidence below that we're dead and gone, and not turn the endtimes into a freak show with people disappearing out of planes, baby strollers, and swimming pools. Society will be sick, and the Millennial Age is going to come to salvage those who don't make it the 1st time around! Sorry, just my thoughts...

 

[hawkman]

The "Left Behind" kind of scenarios would have us believe that naked bodies of Christians leave their clothes behind as they take a flight up into the clouds to meet the Lord in heaven. This is embarrasing to me as a Christian to put this kind of Sci Fi entertainment in front of the world, expecting them to buy into this!

Taking flight into the clouds will be a supernatural event orchestrated by God . Why do you say Sci-Fi when it is from God ? You would not call Elijah's trip Sci-fi , would you ?

The last hour of this age will probably see the world bunkered down in the face of a nuclear war, world-wide. By this time, many nominal Christians will have exposed their religion as faith-less. True Christianity will have been persecuted and driven underground, to some degree.

Are you prepping now for this scenario you are talking about ? What measures does it say Christians are to take in the bible for this time period you see coming .

Those remaining alive, therefore, will not leave their clothes behind when God takes them!

In the twinkle of an eye Christians will have an incorruptible body and white robe , my thoughts .


51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

No, in less than a second their spirits will leave their bodies as corpses on the ground, just as if they had been killed, and in the same second they will take up dwelling in new glorified, sinless bodies.

This was not the case with Jesus , so I would think this body we have will be changed , a glorified body . No corpses .

20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

So in the last hour there will be a relatively small number of believers who will be instantly glorified, as I indicated. And they will be marked as dead. All must "die" in some way.

I don't see anything about death here in these scriptures . The alive are caught up .

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[miamited]

Hi RandyK

For me, the rapture comes after the days of great tribulation. I can't see why Jesus would have warned us of them if we weren't going to be here. What I find is that people misunderstand that the tribulation is not the wrath of God. It's only the wrath of God that the Scriptures promise that we will not endure.

 

[JLB]

They are the same. It's just that in our time we've been inundated with Dispensationalism to the point where we cannot read Matthew's version any longer without thinking it identifies the AoD as the Antichrist and the Great Tribulation as the Reign of Antichrist.

I appreciate your perspective and candor.

You have a good heart.

I would like to introduce two related passages into this discussion that will be important to understand. From Daniel and Zechariah.

I believe we must have some understanding of Daniel’s prophecy of the 70 weeks to understand better what Jesus was teaching. Jesus referred us to Daniel.

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), Matthew 24:15

Also it’s important to know that Jesus is teaching His disciples from the very words He Himself spoke through the mouth of Zechariah the Prophet... before He became flesh.

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
Zechariah 14:1-7


Key verses:

• Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Matthew 24:3

• For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;

But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

• That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven



Post is getting to be long. I will stop here and hope to have a good discussion.

 

[JLB]

For me, the rapture comes after the days of great tribulation.

Amen.


The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15

 

[for_his_glory]

The "Left Behind" kind of scenarios would have us believe that naked bodies of Christians leave their clothes behind as they take a flight up into the clouds to meet the Lord in heaven. This is embarrasing to me as a Christian to put this kind of Sci Fi entertainment in front of the world, expecting them to buy into this!

The last hour of this age will probably see the world bunkered down in the face of a nuclear war, world-wide. By this time, many nominal Christians will have exposed their religion as faith-less. True Christianity will have been persecuted and driven underground, to some degree.

Those remaining alive, therefore, will not leave their clothes behind when God takes them! ;) No, in less than a second their spirits will leave their bodies as corpses on the ground, just as if they had been killed, and in the same second they will take up dwelling in new glorified, sinless bodies. In these kinds of bodies we will likely be able to operate like angels until the end of the Millennial Age, judging the world from heaven in such a way as to preserve the peace against any satanic influences.

Remember, Enoch's "Rapture" and Elijah's "Rapture" represented a tiny minority of believers. Elijah at one point thought he alone was left to operate in faith.

So in the last hour there will be a relatively small number of believers who will be instantly glorified, as I indicated. And they will be marked as dead. All must "die" in some way. But those who survive to the end will die and rise in the same second of time without the lingering pain of death.

Remember how Moses went at the end of his ministry. God just sort of "took him," although it is clear that his corpse was left behind.

Deut 34.5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.

For me, then, the "Rapture" is a poor representation of "harpazo," which is more like God is going to "grab" those of us who survive in the last hour, to deliver us from the conflagration. It will even be like a death more than a rapturous moment...at least until in the next moment we find ourselves in glorified bodies.

We can leave evidence below that we're dead and gone, and not turn the endtimes into a freak show with people disappearing out of planes, baby strollers, and swimming pools. Society will be sick, and the Millennial Age is going to come to salvage those who don't make it the 1st time around! Sorry, just my thoughts...

I agree that these Left Behind series are not according to scripture and I can not agree with what you have said about in less than a second their spirits will leave their bodies as corpses on the ground, just as if they had been killed. This comes against what is written in 1Corinthians 15:50-58 and 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

As far as Moses, Enoch and Elijah they were not taken up to the third heaven where God, Jesus and the angels reside, John 3:13.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth, they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, John 5:28, 29. It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelites never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.

 

[miamited]

Hey RandyK

The "Left Behind" kind of scenarios would have us believe that naked bodies of Christians leave their clothes behind as they take a flight up into the clouds to meet the Lord in heaven.

Well, if it is our physical bodies, then why would our clothes not go with us? I mean, is our body going to somehow wriggle out of our clothes? When you jump up in the air, don't your clothes go with you? The Left Behind series also posits that the rapture comes before the days of great tribulation and I don't think that's true either. The days of great tribulation are not the same days as the day of God's wrath. The tribulation will be a persecution brought on by the Antichrist and the works of Satan. The day of God's wrath will be the days in which the bowl judgments are poured out upon those left on the earth from what we are told in the Revelation of Jesus chapter 14.

There will be two beings. One is Jesus and he will come and reap his harvest from the earth. That's the rapture. Then the second creature will reap the remaining harvest and throw them into the winepress of God's wrath. That's how chapter 14 describes it. But if those who are alive are raised in their physical bodies, then there's no reason that one's clothes wouldn't go right along with them.

 

[Keraz]

The Alternative to a rapture
Firstly; the general definition of a ‘rapture’, means being taken to live in heaven. This is believed by many, to happen before the Lord punishes the world and destroys His enemies. But scripture does not clearly say that anyone will be taken to heaven, excepting for the two Witnesses, Revelation 11:12, who will be the last of the Christian martyrs killed for their faith during the 42 month period when Satan has world control.

The belief in a general rapture can only be made by inference and assumption. It has gained wide acceptance because it’s the easy way out. We must discard any pretentious ideas of escape and removal from the earth. That idea directly opposes the Great Commission and the Words of Jesus where He says that it is impossible for humans to go to heaven. John 3:13, John 17:15, Revelation 2:25

So: what are God’s Plans for His faithful people?
We live today, in a time of worldwide unrest and change, especially in the Middle East region. Many Bible Prophecies tell us that the Lord will clear and cleanse the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43. Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter 3:7
This dramatic event, the Lord’s terrible day of vengeance and wrath, will change the world. It will result in the formation of a One World Government, Daniel 7:23-24, but the Christian peoples will travel to and live in their heritage, of the entire Holy Land area, fulfilling their destiny of being Gods Light to the world and His witnesses to the nations; Isaiah 48:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 This scenario is confirmed by Isaiah 35…by the Way of Holiness….those people the Lord has redeemed, will enter Zion, with praise and thanksgiving, And in Romans 9:24-26, we Christians will be told: we are the children of the Living God, in the very same place as ancient Israel was rejected. Psalms 37:29, +

Friends and brethren, we look forward to an amazing future, where we can be a part of Gods wonderful Plan for His faithful peoples and enjoy His Blessings as we live in peace and prosperity under His protection. Ezekiel 38 & 39 demonstrate how the Lord will protect us from enemies.

When Jesus Returns, then the Prophecy in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 will take place. Those Christians who have proved their faith will meet Jesus in the air then be transported to Jerusalem, where He will be for the Millennium.
Ref: logostelos.info

 

[hawkman]

The whole idea of a rapture to heaven a direct refutation of scripture. Jesus said that no one goes to heaven, except the One who came from heaven. John 3:13

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus and he told him no one has ascended to heaven AND come back down , but He being Jesus came from heaven . Jesus is the only one with heavenly knowledge . "No one goes to heaven" is not even said !

12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1 Cor 15:50-56 - is a Prophecy about the Great White Throne Judgment.

I do not find any of these words in 1Cor15:50-56 , Great , White , Throne or Judgement . Explain if you can .

​

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[RedPill]

“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

There is another layer of deception we need to be aware of.

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Matt 24:15, 16).

Because the pre-trib "rapturists" falsely teach the Abomination of Desolation is an image of the Antichrist erected in a Jewish temple that will be rebuilt because of a supposed 7-year treaty, the substitution of the word standing for stand in the modern "versions" helps to support the false doctrinal system of the dispensationalists.

Believers that have studied the New Testament without their “rapture” blinders on long ago determined that "the holy place" is that place where Christ is now seated. There is no place in any Jewish temple that is holy because Hebrews teaches us that Christ has, "... by his own blood entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Heb 9:11). This holy place is found in "a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands..." (Heb 9:10) that is found in the heavenlies.

Jesus tells his followers (the Christians, in case anyone doesn't understand who Jesus' followers were) that when we see the Abomination of Desolation, we are to "stand in the holy place" (Mat 24:15). Since Jesus is now in "the holy place," this simply means that we are to stand firm in our place in Christ when we see the prophesied events come to pass. By adding the tiny suffix of "-ing" to the word stand, new versions manipulate the verse to show there will be an image "standing" in the holy place -- but that's not what this text is saying.

 

[RandyK]

Hey RandyK

Well, if it is our physical bodies, then why would our clothes not go with us? I mean, is our body going to somehow wriggle out of our clothes? When you jump up in the air, don't your clothes go with you? The Left Behind series also posits that the rapture comes before the days of great tribulation and I don't think that's true either. The days of great tribulation are not the same days as the day of God's wrath. The tribulation will be a persecution brought on by the Antichrist and the works of Satan. The day of God's wrath will be the days in which the bowl judgments are poured out upon those left on the earth from what we are told in the Revelation of Jesus chapter 14.

There will be two beings. One is Jesus and he will come and reap his harvest from the earth. That's the rapture. Then the second creature will reap the remaining harvest and throw them into the winepress of God's wrath. That's how chapter 14 describes it. But if those who are alive are raised in their physical bodies, then there's no reason that one's clothes wouldn't go right along with them.

I didn't really mean to say it can't happen, ie with the clothes. What I meant to say is that it doesn't seem likely--it doesn't seem like a God-thing. But who knows?

 

[RedPill]

I didn't really mean to say it can't happen, ie with the clothes. What I meant to say is that it doesn't seem likely--it doesn't seem like a God-thing. But who knows?

I want the white robe.

 

[JLB]

There is another layer of deception we need to be aware of.

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains" (Matt 24:15, 16).

Because the pre-trib "rapturists" falsely teach the Abomination of Desolation is an image of the Antichrist erected in a Jewish temple that will be rebuilt because of a supposed 7-year treaty, the substitution of the word standing for stand in the modern "versions" helps to support the false doctrinal system of the dispensationalists.

Believers that have studied the New Testament without their “rapture” blinders on long ago determined that "the holy place" is that place where Christ is now seated. There is no place in any Jewish temple that is holy because Hebrews teaches us that Christ has, "... by his own blood entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." (Heb 9:11). This holy place is found in "a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands..." (Heb 9:10) that is found in the heavenlies.

Jesus tells his followers (the Christians, in case anyone doesn't understand who Jesus' followers were) that when we see the Abomination of Desolation, we are to "stand in the holy place" (Mat 24:15). Since Jesus is now in "the holy place," this simply means that we are to stand firm in our place in Christ when we see the prophesied events come to pass. By adding the tiny suffix of "-ing" to the word stand, new versions manipulate the verse to show there will be an image "standing" in the holy place -- but that's not what this text is saying.

The holy place, the outer court and the holy of holies are names of the areas of the temple.

 

[RedPill]

The holy place, the outer court and the holy of holies are names of the areas of the temple.

The temple indeed!

"stand in the holy place" (Mat. 24:15) reads the same as 'stand firm in your place as a saint of God.'

Here are 61 verses where "holy" hagios is equivalent to "saint" hagios (same Greek word):

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

"saints*" AND "G40" primary search results are listed below along with dictionary aides, FAQs, and Lexiconc.

www.blueletterbible.org

Within me, the temple, is the most holy place, the holy of holies; in it dwells God's Holy Spirit.