Bible Study The Resurrections

[Mark2]

Regarding the resurrection, it seems that the verses below suggests that to those who are in Christ, you will be raised to life at the point of death. You will never see death nor taste death at all as Christ has already done that on the cross for us.

Matthew 27:50-56

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Luke 23:32-43

42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:1-10

1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

--

John 8:51-59

51 I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

Luke 9:18-27

27 I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Hebrews 2:5-9

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

--

And, how about this verse: Will we be resurrected at the point of physical death or at the last trumpet?

1 Corinthians 15:51-57

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." 55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

--

It seems that there are people being caught up already. So, when a Christian dies, he goes directly to be with our Lord, Jesus Christ, not seeing death nor tasting death at all.

Need your inputs! thanks.

 

[guibox]

This is the problem. Which death was Jesus speaking about?

Notice the reiteration to the message He gave Martha:

He who believes in me shall never die, and I will raise Him up at the last day' John 6:47

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose no one but shall raise them up at the last day" vs 40

Jesus is not concerned with the physical death but the second death, the spiritual death from which there is no resurrection. By claiming that Jesus was talking about the first death has three problems:

1) It ignores the fact that everybody DOES die
2) It assumes that man has an immortal soul that goes to heaven at death
3) It contradicts and ignores the necessity for a resurrection at the end of time in which both Christ and Paul place great emphasis on for eternal life.

Renowned scholar Oscar Cullman wrote:

. Whoever wants to conquer death must die; he must really cease to live -- not simply live on as an immortal soul, but die in body and soul, lose life itself, the most precious good which God has given us.

Furthermore, if life is to issue out of so genuine a death as this a new divine act of creation is necessary. And this act of creation calls back to life not just a part of the man but the whole man -- all that God had created and death had annihilated.

If we want to understand the Christian faith in the Resurrection, we must completely disregard the Greek thought that the material, the bodily, the corporeal is bad and must be destroyed, so that the death of the body would not be in any sense a destruction of the true life. For Christian (and Jewish) thinking the death of the body is also destruction of God-created life. No distinction is made: even the life of our body is true life; death is the destruction of all life created by God. Therefore it is death and not the body which must be conquered by the Resurrection.

Look closely at 1 Corinthians 15:55

"And when this mortal shall put on immortality and this corruption shall put on incorruption, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying 'Death is swallowed up in victory! O death where is thy sting, O grave where is thy victory?'"

You see, this was the death that Jesus saved us from which is only conquered at the resurrection and not at death.

Look at what reformer William Tyndale, translatory of the English bible said in his response to Thomas More:

And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be) And then what cause is there of the resurrection?

And this one:

And when he [More] proveth that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be their God, they be in heaven, for he is not the God of the dead;" there he stealeth away Christ's argument, wherewith he proveth the resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world. And with that doctrine he taketh away the resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.

And this one:

"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection

Really read ALL of 1 Corinthians 15 and you will see that it is the whole man that rises and that without the resurrection, death would not be conquered and we would 'perish' in the grave.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

In my humble opinion

This is the problem. Which death was Jesus speaking about?

Notice the reiteration to the message He gave Martha:

He who believes in me shall never die, and I will raise Him up at the last day' John 6:47

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose no one but shall raise them up at the last day" vs 40

When we die our souls will (I sincerely hope) go to Heaven, but on the last day Our Lord will raise us up our bodies also, and will give us new spiritual bodies, transformed from our old ones, that can live forever ! I Corinthians Chapter 15

It is then the old Heaven and Earth will disappear and a new one created! Revelation of St. John Chapter 21

So you see Our Lord did mean it literally when He said "I will raise Him up at the last day" !

Amen! Thy Kingdom Come!

 

[Mark2]

This is the problem. Which death was Jesus speaking about?

Notice the reiteration to the message He gave Martha:

He who believes in me shall never die, and I will raise Him up at the last day' John 6:47

"And this is the will of Him who sent me, that I shall lose no one but shall raise them up at the last day" vs 40

Jesus is not concerned with the physical death but the second death, the spiritual death from which there is no resurrection. By claiming that Jesus was talking about the first death has three problems:

1) It ignores the fact that everybody DOES die
2) It assumes that man has an immortal soul that goes to heaven at death
3) It contradicts and ignores the necessity for a resurrection at the end of time in which both Christ and Paul place great emphasis on for eternal life.

Thank you for your inputs. Appreciate it.

But, how do you reconcile the verse below?

2 Corinthians 12:1-10

1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows. 3 And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows-- 4 was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.

So, what about this particular man who was already caught up to the 3rd heaven?

And, what about this verse?

Matthew 27

52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

So, what about these holy people that was raised from the dead at the moment Christ gave up His spirit?

1 Corinthians 15:51-57

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.

And, not ignoring the verse above, how do we reconcile the verses cited?

What happens then when a true Christian dies in your perspective? What happens when a non-believer dies?

Thanks!

 

[golfjack]

reply

I believe Matt. 27:52-53 is prophetic in that when we die to sin, we arise into life in Christ Jesus. The Book of Revelatioin tells that Jesus will come again and put His feet on the Mount of Olives.


May God bless, golfjack

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Paul's vision etc.

2 Corinthians 12:1-10

This passage doesn't really apply to the discussion here, this is St. Paul describing a vision he had, if you read on a bit further. He didn't stay in Heaven at that particular time, even if he was caught up into the 3rd Heaven, in the body or out. It does however elude slightly, to the difference between bodily ressurection, and transfer of the spirit only into Heaven.

Matthew 27:51-53

I am not sure whether these people were given new heavenly bodies, going into Heaven after appearing in Jerusalem, or resurrected in the flesh as we live now, and simply going home to live out natural lives after appearing in Jerusalem. The scripture does not say.

Luke 23:32-43

Yes the soul of the Good Thief, went that day into Heaven with Our Lord! The scripture doesn't imply that he was assumed body and soul.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Paul is talking about the physical body here, the soul/spirit never dies (or sleeps), the physical body does however. On the last day the soul and body will be reunited, and the body transformed into a heavenly body, a body of matter and spirit that can live forever! (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).
The some of us whose physical bodies "will not all sleep", are those who will be caught up in the Rapture, on the last day!

 

[guibox]

Re: Paul's vision etc.

1 Corinthians 15:51-57

Paul is talking about the physical body here, the soul/spirit never dies (or sleeps), the physical body does however. On the last day the soul and body will be reunited, and the body transformed into a heavenly body, a body of matter and spirit that can live forever! (1 Corinthians 15:54-55).

And there is not scriptural support at all for a 'body/soul' reunification. It doesn't exist. It is based on the necessity to explain clear texts on the resurrection by separating the two due to a preconceived notion that we have immortal souls.

Read the whole of 1 Corinthians 15. You will see that Paul speaks of life, death and resurrection for the whole man and not merely the body.

Please show the lengthy discourses of Paul speaking of our loved ones 'floating' around without a body in heaven....anyone..anyone? It's not there! Please show the clear teaching that my soul is reunited with my body at the resurrection....anyone...anyone? It's not there either!

Show me that at the resurrection and at the end of time rewards are given out and man is resurrected to eternal life and wicked man is condemned....

John 5:28,29
John 6:40,47
1 Corinthians 15:13-23, 51-55
2 Corinthians 5:1-8
Revelation 22:12
Daniel 12:1,2
Job 14:10-14
2 Timothy 4:6-8
Revelation 20:15
Matthew 13:40-42

It is at the resurrections and not at death that man is rewarded and that man receives whatever eternity awaits him. The 'soul/body' split is not biblical and man doesn't have an immortal soul but is resurrected to life.

The some of us whose physical bodies "will not all sleep", are those who will be caught up in the Rapture, on the last day!

By your logic, 'we who will not all sleep' will only be translated in body and not soul. Think about it. If 'those who sleep' are only sleeping in body but their souls are alive, then when Paul says 'But we will not all sleep' implies that when Christ comes it is only our bodies he speaks of. This negates the NT view that the whole man was resurrected. You cannot 'sleep' and 'be in heaven' at the same time. Those who 'sleep', are 'awoken' some to 'life' others to 'condemnation'. Such a notion is ludicrous and redundant if my essence is already in the realm of the saved or the damned at death.

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Here is a very plain example!

The Revelation 6:9-11

9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These are some awfully talkative folks to be sleeping, they are in Heaven, it's before the last day obviously, and there is no implication that they have been bodily resurrected. If the soul sleeps until the last day then how is it these people are crying out with a loud voice?

By your logic, 'we who will not all sleep' will only be translated in body and not soul. Think about it. If 'those who sleep' are only sleeping in body but their souls are alive, then when Paul says 'But we will not all sleep' implies that when Christ comes it is only our bodies he speaks of. This negates the NT view that the whole man was resurrected. You cannot 'sleep' and 'be in heaven' at the same time.

Are you not a being of body and soul now?! If the Rapture came today, you would remain body and soul, but your body would be transformed!

1 Corinthians 15:50-53

50.Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53.For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Aren't you more than just flesh and blood?

 

[golfjack]

reply

Latin, you are right about the rapture. But let's use scripture to try and settle the argument. 2 Cor. 5:8 says we are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. You see, we have a spirit, and soul that is immortal. Paul said that the body is unprofitable. We see in 1 Thess. 5:23 that talks about spirit, soul and body. The Bible says that we should workout our own salvation. What do we have to workout and how? By renewing our minds ( soul), by hearing and by the Word of God. You see, at the new birth our spirits have been recreated, and are pedrfect in the sight of God. A holy God cannot live in a us without being born again. When one physically dies, he either goes to heaven or hell. Our soul will be fully renewed when we get to heaven. Think about it? Science has proved we only operate on ten per-cent brain capacity. We will not receive our brand new Glorified body until we go to the judgment seat of Christ, not to be confused to the White Throne Judgment.

I know this is contrary to your Catholic Thelogy, but what I have said to me is exactly right.



May God bless, golfjack

 

[Atonement]

Wow, this is a hard topic to follow, many points are being expressed and all good I might add. But the Holy Spirit in me is giving me two verses to quote and that I shall not elaborate on, it's best to leave at face value..

2Cr 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[guibox]

Re: Here is a very plain example!

The Revelation 6:9-11

9. And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


These are some awfully talkative folks to be sleeping, they are in Heaven, it's before the last day obviously, and there is no implication that they have been bodily resurrected. If the soul sleeps until the last day then how is it these people are crying out with a loud voice?

First all, Revelation is highly symbolic and needs to be discussed with caution before making theology out of it. Are there really disembodied souls of millions crammed under an altar?

Second, the word for 'souls' here can also be translated 'lives'. What we see here is a metaphorical comparison to the sacrificial system of the OT. When animals were sacrificed, the Hebrews believed that the 'life was in the blood'. When they were sacrificed their blood was poured under the altar signifying the completion of their sacrifice. Notice also the parallel to Cain and Abel. Abel's blood was 'crying out to God'. Was it really? Wasn't it just a personification signifying the need for justice and revenge?

Basically, this passage in Revelation is symbolic of the martyrs who shed their lives for God and wonder when they would get their recompense and justice. It is NOT an expose on souls in heaven.

 

[guibox]

Wow, this is a hard topic to follow, many points are being expressed and all good I might add. But the Holy Spirit in me is giving me two verses to quote and that I shall not elaborate on, it's best to leave at face value..

2Cr 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

My friend, it definitely is NOT good to leave at face value for this is where false theology, misinterpretation and ignorance of context take control.

The questions to be asked are:

What does Paul mean in saying 'absent from the body'?
Does the scripture clarify WHEN we are to be 'present with the Lord'?

Read verses 1-5 closely. you will see that Paul wants to be rid of this earthly body to receive the heavenly body for this earthly body of 'flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven'. His desire is to 'put off' this body to be 'clothed in immortality' so that 'death may be swallowed up'.

When does this occur? It is assumption that this occurs IMMEDIATELY. The passage does not say that but the Bible clarifies when this happens.

Compare it all to 1 Corinthians 15:44-55.

You will see the same language used in context of death and the resurrection in BOTH passages. Paul is talking about the same event. By being 'absent from the body' doesn't mean that my soul lives on and goes to heaven. NOWHERE are the terms 'soul' or 'spirit' used in this entire passage. To be 'absent from the body' means to put off this mortal body to receive the immortal so he can enter into heaven.

When are we 'present with the Lord' or literally to 'be with the Lord'?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 at the second coming. 'And we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord

The immortality of the soul is Greek dualism and not Hebrew/Christian theology. The Bible preaches resurrection to life, not immortality of the soul.

Look in a concordance for the term 'soul'. Nowhere is it ever used as something immortal, the essence of man that lives on after death. The 'spirit' is not the 'soul' and neither is either the essence of man that lives on after death. Contrary to public opinion, the 'spirit that returns to God who gave it' applies to all men first of all, and second is merely the 'life spark' that makes man a 'living soul' Genesis 2:7. It is not the thinking, feeling immortal part of man.

This is false Greek theology.

 

[guibox]

Re: reply

You see, we have a spirit, and soul that is immortal.

Please show the biblical textual proof and the Greek and Hebrew support for this.

We see in 1 Thess. 5:23 that talks about spirit, soul and body.

Yes, man is a wholistic being. However, to say that these things are the essence and cogitating functional parts of man that exist outside of the body is incorrect. Death is creation in reverse:

body + breath (spirit) = living being (soul)

living soul - breath = dust

At the resurrection creation is made anew and man is given immortality. Immortality doesn't exist outside the resurrection.

Read the texts I gave again.

When one physically dies, he either goes to heaven or hell. Our soul will be fully renewed when we get to heaven.

And the support for this other than a cursory reading of Luke 16 is where? The Bible makes it plain that rewards are given at the end of time for both righteous and wicked. There is not a time for rewards for the soul and then another time for rewards for the body. A resurrection and a judgment are useless according to this theology for punishment and rewards are given at death and my essence is already in heaven. What need is there for a resurrection? What need is there for an end time judgment found in Revelation 20 when the wicked already have their reward in hell when they die?

Do you even know the Greek and Hebrew words for 'hell' in the Bible and what they mean?

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Okay, whatever.

Revelation 6:9-11


So basically what you're saying is, when I give you a plain example of individuals The Holy Scripture, specifically, calls 'the souls of', who are actively participating in events in Heaven, before The Last Day. You immediately blow it off by saying;

"Revelation is highly symbolic and needs to be discussed with caution before making theology out of it."

Not to mention Abel's blood, cryed out from the ground Genesis 4:10 . Not his soul, nor from under the altar, in Heaven!

You also try to use temporal logic by saying;

"Are there really disembodied souls of millions crammed under an altar?"

Could you please share with all of us the physical dimensions of a human soul, and of the altar in Heaven, so we can see how many square feet/ per soul living space is required!

And finally you state;

"Basically, this passage in Revelation is symbolic of the martyrs who shed their lives for God and wonder when they would get their recompense and justice. It is NOT an expose on souls in heaven."

Only because, this one passage alone totally blows your whole 'soul sleep' policy right out of the water. How would these folks 'wonder' when their recompense is coming, if they were in fact in a state of spiritual torpor somewhere below the Earth?

 

[guibox]

Re: Okay, whatever.

Revelation 6:9-11


So basically what you're saying is, when I give you a plain example of individuals The Holy Scripture, specifically, calls 'the souls of', who are actively participating in events in Heaven, before The Last Day. You immediately blow it off by saying;

"Revelation is highly symbolic and needs to be discussed with caution before making theology out of it."

Not to mention Abel's blood, cryed out from the ground Genesis 4:10 . Not his soul, nor from under the altar, in Heaven!

You also try to use temporal logic by saying;

[quote:91e72]"Are there really disembodied souls of millions crammed under an altar?"

Could you please share with all of us the physical dimensions of a human soul, and of the altar in Heaven, so we can see how many square feet/ per soul living space is required!

And finally you state;

"Basically, this passage in Revelation is symbolic of the martyrs who shed their lives for God and wonder when they would get their recompense and justice. It is NOT an expose on souls in heaven."

Only because, this one passage alone totally blows your whole 'soul sleep' policy right out of the water. How would these folks 'wonder' when their recompense is coming, if they were in fact in a state of spiritual torpor somewhere below the Earth?[/quote:91e72]

My friend, if that is your approach to bible study (take a metaphorical passage) to determine theology, you don't know hermeneutics or exegesis. You cannot ignore the parallels to the OT and that it was believed that the 'life was in the blood'. The term 'soul' never means 'the immortal essence of man'. The term 'soul' linguistically means 'a living being'.

Second, there is no other support. Not even Luke 16 for this passage constantly speaks of having a body and not an ethereal spirit.

Third, it contradicts clear teachings that man is a wholistic being and the myriad of texts that show that rewards are received in the body and not as an immortal soul

Fourth, nowhere lingustically or contextually will you find support that my soul leaves my body and goes to heaven at death, unless 'soul' is translated as life in the case of Rachel where it says 'and her soul left her'. This means that 'her life left her' in the context of the Hebrew theology and the Hebrew language of 'nephesh'.

 

[Atonement]

My friend, it definitely is NOT good to leave at face value for this is where false theology, misinterpretation and ignorance of context take control.

My dear solider in Christ. I'm sorry if I did not elaborate, I'm lead by the Spirit and not that of men. Some answers are best to leave at face value, if one wants to misquote / misinterpret or allow deceit in their debate, it could allow more of a stumbling block then an answer. I hope you understand. God Bless you

 

[Latin Rite Catholic]

Second, there is no other support. Not even Luke 16 for this passage constantly speaks of having a body and not an ethereal spirit.

James 2:26

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[guibox]

Second, there is no other support. Not even Luke 16 for this passage constantly speaks of having a body and not an ethereal spirit.

James 2:26

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

Of course because the 'spirit' is the 'ruach' the spark that makes man a living soul. When this 'spark' or 'life breath' is removed, man ceases to exist.

This verse, nor any other states that the 'spirit that returns to God who gave it' is the soul, or the immortal, cogitating, thinking part of man or that it is even limited to Christians!

Look at Ecclesiastes 12:7 which the NT passages describing Christ on the cross and Stephen being stoned are taken from:

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to god who gave it

This entire passage is talking about mankind in general and not merely Christians. The Hebrews did not have a dualistic view of the afterlife. This 'spirit' is merely the life force being removed from one's body.

So if by this passage and the others like it you deduct that my soul goes to heaven at death, than ALL men's souls both good and bad go to heaven at death.

Immortality of the soul is unbiblical and came about from Greek influence not Hebrew/Christian.

It is not the soul, neither is it living on it's own.

 

[SputnikBoy]

My friend, it definitely is NOT good to leave at face value for this is where false theology, misinterpretation and ignorance of context take control.

My dear solider in Christ. I'm sorry if I did not elaborate, I'm lead by the Spirit and not that of men. Some answers are best to leave at face value, if one wants to misquote / misinterpret or allow deceit in their debate, it could allow more of a stumbling block then an answer. I hope you understand. God Bless you

?????

Now, this is what stumps me EVERY time! As long as one is led by the Spirit and not man, how come the Spirit seems to continually lead people into false theology? Just a question.

 

[Atonement]

Now, this is what stumps me EVERY time! As long as one is led by the Spirit and not man, how come the Spirit seems to continually lead people into false theology? Just a question.

And what is my false theology since you know me so well, what position do I stand on?? What stumps me is people like this wanna assume they know the world about someone and yet you don't even know my first name.. What a joke!!!