The Rock that Jesus Builds his Church is not Peter

[Orthodoxy]

[quote="jamesgarden_47":7a56b]In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church. He was Christianity's greatest missionary, writer, theologian and most articulate spokesman. Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles while Peter the Apostle to the Jews. The Jerusalem Church was largely destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD as the center of Christianity shifted from Jerusalem to Rome.

It was Paul who confronted Peter and his fellow Jewish Christians on behalf of the Gentiles, for refusing to eat with fellow Gentile Christians based on Jewish law. It was Peter, not Paul, who was intimidated by the representatives of James, the head of the Jerusalem church.

This has always intrigued me (even in my Christian days).

Jesus picks 12 guys as his cohorts. One utterly fails, and gets replaced.

Nevertheless, you have 11 originals who have been with him the whole time, hearing his parables, witnessing his miracles, present at his resurrection.

Yet somehow they are not enough. Instead, Jesus comes to Paul, a nobody, and makes him the chief witness (according to what we know). Peter and James and Simon and all the rest be darned.

Why did Jesus even have the original 12 (or 11), if all he needed was Paul? Who was Paul to upend Peter? Paul never even met the fellow.

You are asking excellent questions, ones that most Protestants do not seem to consider, because to answer these questions one must either undermine the authority of the Twelve, or acknowledge that the authority of the Twelve did not die with them.

Churches with Apostolic succession see the Twelve as the beginning of the Church, but not the sole foundation: "apostles and prophets" is broader than Twelve.
The Apostles delegated authority to others who would in turn do likewise (2 Tim 2:2).

Jesus picked Twelve. They in turn established Churches, and picked Bishops and Deacons. One of the Churches they (Peter, actually) established was Antioch. Paul was commissioned in a unique way by the Lord, but confirmed and commended to the brethren by existing authority. Antioch selected and commissioned Paul. In addition, Paul submitted his revelation of the gospel to the Apostles at Jerusalem to see if he "had run his race in vain" (ie, was mistaken).

So, as Israel began with a man (Jacob), who begat Twelve sons, and they in turn begat sons and daughters, so did Christ 'beget' Twelve, who in turn had other 'sons and daughters.' Others in the history of the Church have been uniquely called in ways nearly as striking as Paul's. Since they were not of the first generation, we did not canonize any of their theological treatises- but treasure them within the Tradition of the Church.

Paul was a scholar and a mystic, and he wa able to articulate the faith in a manner beyond the pen of any of the other Apostles. But it is instructive to see that Paul submitted first, then spoke with authority when given same.

You post implies Peter was a fool, yet it ignores that Jesus picked him as his chief apostle. Out of 12 (or 11) apostles, why couldn't Jesus get at least one to get a decent message out? None of the 12 (or 11) even became the head of the Jerusalem church, something again passing to another James (according to the bible).

Actually, Peter's universal epistles are, in my estimation, decent messages. Among the Seventy that Jesus chose was a young physician by the name of Luke, who also created a beautiful historical account of the gospel and of the acts of the Apostles. Why Paul and James, and why later? I suspect everything and every person has their unique, appointed (chairos) time. That's what it says in Ecclesiaastes, anyway (cue Byrds)

I have never had a good answer to this question...why is Paul necessary? Counting the women (not to mention 500 witnesses, according to Paul), there were a great many supposed witnesses to Jesus. Why Paul? Why didn't Jesus just pick a gentile as part of his contingent when he was around if that's what he wanted?

Please see above for my meager explanation.

In reality, Paul has been the foundation of the Christian Church.

I agree with that 100%. Christianity is almost completely Paul's.

What Paul brings to the table is a unique synthesis of Greek and Hebrew thought. Christianity is not almost completely Pauline- Protestantism is.

Although he was not one of the disciples, Paul was recruited by Christ in a unique manner.

According to Paul.

Visions are a dime a dozen. It might be slightly more believable if there weren't multiple conflicting versions of the story.

Whatever happened to Paul on that road changed him deeply and permanently. He may have been deluded, but he was not double-minded.
Regards
James[/quote:7a56b]

Very Good and I am witness to that in the Church.

 

[Orthodoxy]

CJ,
Thanks for the great post. I have seen the accuser of the brethren active in multiple Churches, but I have not been aware of the deeply rooted satanic beliefs planted in the people of the Catholic institution until reading posts from OC, Thes, Stray, Ortho, and others that are pro-Roman Catholic.

Wow- I've been identified as "pro-Roman Catholic." I don't think that this designation is accurate. I have appreciation and love for my Catholic brethren, even as I disagree with certain doctrinal distinctives with them.

I can now see how the murders of the men of God in the past from the RCC can again take hold on the world as they are doing God's work, when their antiChristian goal to abolish satan's enemy occurs in the last days.

Have you lost your mind? You equate disagreement on the interwurb with murer? Do you think of hangnail as a type of martyrdom? Let's not be over-dramatic here. Have you ever experienced real persecution?

I see no love of Christ in any of the posts, nor do I see any truth from the Word of God. I only see lies and deceptions.

Sorry to hear that- though I can see without qualification that I am feeling the love from CJ, after a fashion.

Not a one of them can give a testimony of salvation or born again experience, leading me to believe that they are lost and bound for the lake of fire.

Thanks for asking. Yes, I have a testimony, sir, I just don't caste pearls before swine- if you'll pardon the expression. I have shared my testimony from pulpits and podiums, in hospital rooms and prisons. But since you believe me headed for the fiery Gehenna, please do not forget to pray for Iakovos, the sinner. God knows I need mercy.

Pride will do that to a person, and each one is hell-bent on protecting the lies of the Apostate organization called Catholicism.

I hope you're reading this, stray bullet and Thessalonian. I recently took SB to task on a Catholic/Orthodox issue, and Thessalonian and I have danced a few jigs. Guess what, guys, I am a defender of Rome!

Too bad that they can not stand for the truth of Jesus Christ and the brethren.

I do stand for the Truth who is Jesus Christ, and I stand with my brethren, some who are not in my communion. Who are my brothers? Those who do the will of the Father, those who keep the commanments of God, and those who acknowledge the visible unity of the Church- even in it's present imperfection.

My brother in Christ,

How boldly you stand for the Christian faith. I dont say this to puff you up but I am so happy to call you a brother in the Orthodox faith. I guess I would be standing with you in defense of our Roman Catholic brothers even though I strongly disagree with the dual procession issue and others. Surely any one that reads these slanderous, vile and putrid statements by these so called protestant "christians" can see the light from the darkness.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

 

[Orthodoxy]

Wow! That is the strangest interpretation I've ever read concerning Rev. 12. :o

Well, I've been to a forum where one of the guys was claiming that the heavenly city of Jerusalem is currently hidden behind Jupiter. I tried to let him know that we've had unmanned spacecraft orbit Jupiter and her moons, and they reported no heavenly Jerusalem- but he assured me that I just was not yet illumined from the scripture.

Deja vu all over again.

What a hoot! What will the rebellion think up next and pass it off as truth?

Kyril

 

[Orthodox Christian]

My brother in Christ,

How boldly you stand for the Christian faith. I dont say this to puff you up but I am so happy to call you a brother in the Orthodox faith. I guess I would be standing with you in defense of our Roman Catholic brothers even though I strongly disagree with the dual procession issue and others. Surely any one that reads these slanderous, vile and putrid statements by these so called protestant "christians" can see the light from the darkness.

Your unworthy servant,

Kyril

Thank you my brother for your gracious words. It is amazing how the hatred just pours from the fingertips of some of these here- it is clearly demonic. These who pour forth their hatred do so with the arguments of the world, twisting scripture to say what they want it to say.

I am not surprised at all. Catholicism and Orthodoxy, with our emphases on shared tradition and Apostolic authority, provokes the swelled pride of the carnal man that thrives within the breast of these brute beasts. "Let us cast of their fetters" they say. "Who are you to tell me what to do- I have my bible, and God shows ME the truth."

They call us idolaters, casting down our images of holy men and women, all the while fashioning idols of their own image, as they bow and prostrate in the mirror.

Their hatred is a blessing, and I shall embrace it as such.
Christ is in our midst

 

[cj]

I don't use your brand of Christianese.

Neither do you serve the One whom you claim to serve.


And before you get all hot and bothered, and claim that I'm accusing you of not being saved,........

Understand this, scripture is clear that a man can be saved and yet not serve God.

And by the ignorance/lack of scriptural understanding exposed in your words below, we can know that you don't serve God (at least not in a positive sense).

I edited your predictable distortion of my post so that there are four conditions, not two.
a>To the Fathers and mothers of the tribes of Israel
b>in holy scriptures
c>to the fathers and mothers of the Church
d>to me

You're grasping at straws OC, I repeated what you wrote.

But again, I understand your desperation.

The Fundamental tenet of Christian faith is that God has revealed Himself to us. This is found explicitly stated in Hebrews Chapter 1, verses 1 and 2. This revelation is found in the Hebrew scriptures, which record encounters that holy men and women of old had with the Living God.

No OC, the fundamental tenet of Christian faith is that God has given His life to us in the Person of His beloved Son, Christ Jesus.

Revelation is a tool He uses to accomplish His goal, which is to gain a corporate man, made up of the many persons who have received His life.

And this is where you and many believers fall short in understanding the God you claim to serve.

The epistle to the Hebrews, as the title indicates, was written to the Hebrew believers in order to address a lingering mixture of OT and NT ways among the believing body.

The Hebrews to whom this book was written believed in the Lord, but they still wanted to hold on to their Jewish religion. Even worse, they were being persecuted by Jews for their beliefs.

The epistle to the Hebrews was written to these believers to confirm to them the Christian faith and to warn them not to deviate from it, but rather to forsake their Jewish religion. This Epistle was written to them to tell them to move forward in their belief and not to wander between two beliefs or worse, retreat from it.

The clear fact is, this epistle to the Hebrews told them that they had to forsake their Jewish religion in order to go on with the Lord.

And how could they do this?

By this Christ, and all that He is to us in His reality as the One who has accomplished everything for us. This Christ is not a doctrinal Christ; He is a divine Person and the content of the new life we have received as NT believers,..... for our experience (living and being).

Hebrew chapter 1, verse 1 and 2, is not explicitly stating that God reveals Himself to us, but is in fact explicitly stating that God speaks to us.

In fact, it is absolutely clear in these verses that the speaking of God is what is consistent, and that the revelation which comes from this speaking can differ.

Additionally, there is a definite concluding word regarding God's speaking to men in verse two, and it is this concluding word that defines a NT believers's relationship with God.

Hebrews 1:1-2,

"God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets,...... has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe;"

"....... has in these last days spoken to us in the Son...."

Punto finale....... end of story.

And it is the reality of this revelation, God's speaking to us being in the Son, and only the Son, that the epistle to the Hebrews is focused on.

The fact is, the intent of the author of the epistle to the Hebrews is one of moving believers out of the mixed disposition of holding onto the experiences of believers according to God's past speaking, into a pure and present experience of God according to His present speaking in His Son.

This Son, Christ Jesus, is real and living, and is in every believer's regenerated spirit, and He is now supplying us with all the heavenly life, authority, and power that we might live a heavenly life on earth. He is not only our daily salvation but also our moment by moment supply.

The Christian faith is rooted in those revelations, as Christ stated "Salvation is of/from the Jews." God left a very clear record of these encounters, such that we know Avram like a Father, and Sarai like a mother. Likewise heroes such as Deborah, Ruth, Rahab, David, Isaac, Moses, etc, etc.

The Christian faith is not rooted in the revelations of past believers, the Christian faith is rooted in Christ Himself, He who lives.

Likewise, Jesus Christ came to earth and revealed Himself in fulness to us. This is recorded in scripture, and in the detail we see that He revealed Himself to certain chosen people, both before and after His death and resurrection. After His ascension, the Apostles, including the ones made so after the ascension, such as Paul, James, Timothy, Titus, Apollos, Prisca and Aquilla, and others left for us revelation of the Character of God and of the Christian in the new testament scriptures we have recived.

The word of God first and foremost is living,...... it is not first and foremost, as human eyes view it, a historical discription of what these good folks came to know of God.

To attempt to understand God from the position of seeing the bible as a record of human experiences is an effort in vanity.

Sure, much can be understood from this human standpoint, just as Jesus can be understood from a human standpoint also, but this is a superficial way of understanding the scriptures.

Likewise, the lives of New Testament saints since that time reveal to us how to live out such faith. Paul said "though you have ten thousand tutors, you have not many fathers, for I became your father in the faith."

Most assuredly we can take Paul as a pattern for our living, but to do so requires our having a clear understanding of Paul, and this only comes through a clear understanding of God's one ministry, that which Paul ministered.

The truth is, Paul was not the unique pattern, but was himself a duplicate of the unique pattern, this unique pattern being Christ Himself.

And one can only come to know this pattern through the ministry of God.

It is not only within my own revelation that I understand and worship God, but within the framework of the holy scriptures.

This is only meaningless speaking, as the reality of the "framework" of the holy scriptures is just Christ Himself, and not anything else.

In fact, a more true statement would simply be, "Christ living in me as the reality of the holy scriptures, is my understanding and worship of God."

This statement

Because I believe that I worship in my regenerated spirit, and thus worship in truthfulness

could be made quite readily by those who believe that Christ is the angel Michael, or that Ham's sin justifies slavery. CJ may think that he has said something spiritual, but from where I sit, he spoke jargon.

Words can be used to say many different things, but most here who will read what I wrote, understand that I am clear concerning who Christ is, and the reality of what being born again of the Spirit means regarding my possessing a regenerated spirit in which God lives.

Therefore, when I say "..... I believe that I worship in my regenerated spirit, and thus worship in truthfulness", it should be understood that I mean "I believe that I worship God as I abide in God, and thus God being the reality of truth, being in God, my worship is in truth."

Yet, it is easily understood why, from where you sit, you would have a hard time understanding what I was saying.

Christ in our regenerated spirit is the full revelation of God, and not the way God might have revealed Himself to other believers in the past.

These are the words of someone who apparently does not see God as David did, or as Paul did. While our own personal relationship is imperative, unique, and real, if it contradicts the holy scriptures, it is not of God.

And there is nothing that contradicts the holy scriptures more, than that found in the religion you hold to.

David did not know God in the way that Paul came to know God, on this the scriptures are very clear.

In all honesty, though there are many aspects of David's relationship with God that are worthy, I would never want to exchange the relationship that I have today with that which David had. David was not born of the Spirit.

Now Paul on the other hand is a different case; Paul was filled with the Spirit and thus knew God as the One who came to dwell in his regenerated spirit.

It is this very fact, this very unique reality of a born again believer that became the core of Paul's ministry to the believers. Paul's ministry was the completing ministry, the perfecting ministry of God, a ministry that brought believers into the light regarding the full reality of what it means to have the complete triune God dwelling in our regenerated spirit.

And even more, what it means to have a living and being out of our regenerated spirit, out of the place in us in which God dwells and is one with us.

According to this silliness of CJs, the psalms are "altars" to the sons of Korah and David, and Exodus is an altar to Moses.

Actually, the scriptures themselves tells us that men made altars out of the scriptures, or more specifically,...... out of their fallen concepts of the scriptures.

Human history has shown us that many men can read the scriptures and gain nothing of God out of them. Human history has also shown us that men have taken the scriptures an manipulated them to serve their purpose.

So no, if you were honest OC you would not have said that CJ declared the Psalms and Exodus altars, but that I had declared that in man's "placing" of other men's experiences on pedestals it is the same as building altars to them.

No, I don't. As they often said in the old westerns "White man speaks with forked tongue."

You watch to much TV.

Which could account for your lack of scriptural understanding.



Along of course, with your holding to another head.



In love,
cj

 

[cj]

It is amazing how the hatred just pours from the fingertips of some of these here- it is clearly demonic.

Actually, if one truly knows the scriptures, poured out hatred would not be amazing, as it is clearly spoken of being that which will happen.

Therefore, in your speaking we can actually see a demonstration of that which is demonic,..... blindness.

Your blindness to the truth contained in your own words.

For you claim understanding of the scriptures and yet also claim to be amazed by the manifestation of that which the scriptures tell us will be manifested.

Your own words continue to condemn you OC.

These who pour forth their hatred do so with the arguments of the world, twisting scripture to say what they want it to say.

The Pharisees also saw the spoken truth as being against them, and also accused the speaker of all that you accused above.

You are true to religious form OC.

I am not surprised at all. Catholicism and Orthodoxy, with our emphases on shared tradition and Apostolic authority, provokes the swelled pride of the carnal man that thrives within the breast of these brute beasts. "Let us cast of their fetters" they say. "Who are you to tell me what to do- I have my bible, and God shows ME the truth."

Confused though.

And a word of caution,........ be careful of who's servants you call "brute beasts". For the Master will vindicate those He loves and died for.

They call us idolaters,....

Because religionists are, in ignorance or in full knowledge.

.... casting down our images of holy men and women,

For your own salvation.

..... all the while fashioning idols of their own image, as they bow and prostrate in the mirror.

Its one and the same that you are speaking of OC, but your pride hides this fact from you.

The truth is, when you worship before an image altar, you are in fact worshipping your vain belief of what you've convinced yourself this image represents.

Their hatred is a blessing, and I shall embrace it as such.

Oh, poor you. Suffering in the name of God.

Are you into beating yourself also?

Just more religious folly.

Christ is in our midst

He most certainly is, but not for the reasons you think.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I don't use your brand of Christianese.

Neither do you serve the One whom you claim to serve.


And before you get all hot and bothered, and claim that I'm accusing you of not being saved,........

I'm hardly about to get "hot and bothered" by the assessment of my spiritual walk by a stranger on the internet. Your conjecture as to whether I'm saved or not saved, serving God or not serving God is meaningless and a waste of both your time and mine.

Understand this, scripture is clear that a man can be saved and yet not serve God.

And by the ignorance/lack of scriptural understanding exposed in your words below, we can know that you don't serve God (at least not in a positive sense).

It seems to never be enough for you to say "I disagree." In your arrogance, you construct these elaborate buildups wherein no one else has quite the spiritual acumen that you have. I've seen this disorder often in my day, among those who fashion themselves prophets. It is not enough to be led of God, but they must be the foremost. They season their monologues with feigned humility, as you do, but should one challenge the veracity of their claims or the infallibility of their revelation, the sheep's clothing slides off and the fang and claw soon follow.

I don't agree with what you say or how you say it.

You're grasping at straws OC, I repeated what you wrote.

No you did not, do not lie: you edited my comments, placing punctuation in them so as to link clauses in a manner I did not link them. We both know very well what you did.

"Nah. I worship God as He has revealed Himself:

To the Fathers and mothers of the tribes of Israel

in holy scriptures; to the fathers and mothers of the Church

and to me."

Note the colon and semi-colon. Now look at the original

Nah. I worship God as He has revealed Himself:

• to the fathers and mothers of the tribes of Israel
  in holy scripture
  to the fathers and mothers of the Church
  and to me

This was a list of four elements, which was made clear by the indent found at the beginning of each sentence. But you knew that.


The remainder of your post is a collection of false dichotomies, and I won't be bothered to argue semantics- nor will I at this time debate with you your strange replacement theology.

 

[cj]

I'm hardly about to get "hot and bothered" by the assessment of my spiritual walk by a stranger on the internet. Your conjecture as to whether I'm saved or not saved, serving God or not serving God is meaningless and a waste of both your time and mine.

If you have truly gotten past your becoming upset over the truth about your condition being spoken to you, as you've shown time and time again in your whining about attacks on your person, then we've worked together to build maturity in you.

Wonderful.

As for the rest of my speaking, open forums such as these are as much for the many none participating readers as it is for those involved in contributing to the threads. I consider this when I write, desiring all who read what is written be clear about what is being said.

It seems to never be enough for you to say "I disagree." In your arrogance, you construct these elaborate buildups wherein no one else has quite the spiritual acumen that you have.

No, I disgaree,......... as I said above, this is a public forum, anyone can participate and in this participation express "spiritual acumen", or according to scripture, spiritual discernment and understanding.

I've seen this disorder often in my day, among those who fashion themselves prophets.

Never have I referred to myself as a prophet nor "fashioned" myself as a prophet.

I call it as I see it. I trust God to cover my speaking, I know that I am under the blood of our Lord, I believe the Spirit can quicken me in correction, and I make a habit of turning to my spirit so that I may present myself to God with an open open being.

It is not enough to be led of God, but they must be the foremost.

You're funny,........... the foremost huh?

Coming from a worshiper of an folly institution that sets itself up as the foremost in the matter of the church of Christ, your words label you a hypocrite.

They season their monologues with feigned humility, as you do, but should one challenge the veracity of their claims or the infallibility of their revelation, the sheep's clothing slides off and the fang and claw soon follow.

To date you have shown yourself incapable of "challenging" most of what I say on these boards, other than stating that what I say does not agree with the false doctrines of your beloved folly institution.

As I told you months ago, I am more orthodox than you and those like you. I hold to the Head according to the pattern set by the One who in His new testament ended the death found in the ways of religion. This is something, no matter how your beloved institution trys to replicate the forms and traditions of the old testament, you will be unable to do. For the Way is not today found in forms and traditions, but is found in your regenerated spirit.

I don't agree with what you say or how you say it.

Poor OC, unable to even muster the fortitude to admits the truth.

OC, the fact is, much of what I say you do agree with, you simply won't admit it as to do so would seem to strenghten the position of one you have openly discounted.

Kinda painted yourself into a corner haven't you.

No you did not, do not lie: you edited my comments, placing punctuation in them so as to link clauses in a manner I did not link them. We both know very well what you did.

OC,...... whatever you want to believe, the bottomline is, your speaking expose your ignorance regarding the ways of a new testament believer.

Really, you're just attemptong to smokescreen this fact.

The remainder of your post is a collection of false dichotomies, and I won't be bothered to argue semantics- nor will I at this time debate with you your strange replacement theology.

You won't because you can't.

Over and over you have presented your take on scripture and time and time again I have exposed it as the falsehood that it is.

This time you entered into the epistle to the Hebrews and immediately stated a false conclusion.

It is just more of the religious same-'ol-same-'ol.


Don't worry though, Lord willing, I'll remain on these boards and in the Lord enlighten, exhort, and encourage the saints.


In love,
cj

 

[SpiritualSon]

The Lord answered my prayer today. This woman, who owns the place I live in, was assuming I moved her things. It was two small bottles of juice. I knew my prints were not on the bottles, but still she didn't believe. I went too work, and on the job I went outside and hid myself and prayed facing east. I always pray facing east. When I went home after work, everything was OK. All she said was hello, and that was it.

If the Lord answered my prayer on a small matter, as this, than if I prayed to Him to show the Catholic Church give a sign that Swedenborg wrote the truth. Swedenborg warned, if such signs were given, the learneth men of the church must not mix their church's doctrine with the New Church's. This means your old beliefs must go.

Here's what I think I should do. I must have two Priests from each group and two Bishops, as witness. We will place two candles on a table, one candles for the Catholics and one candle for me. We will each take turns in praying to God to lite the candles of the church that speaks the truth. If the Catholic Church believes it has the truth, let God show it. Lets see what church He stands by.

I got this idea from the OT. One of the Prophet had ask the Philistines to built themselves an alter too their god, which was the dragon, and the Prophet built one too Jehovah God. The Prophet said to the Philistines, pray to your god to light the fire on your alter. The Philistines prayed and prayed all day, nothing happen. The Prophet said, maybe your god is asleep, go wake him up.

Harry

Hi Harry: would it be ok if I cut in and took the bet? God lights our candles at the Church of the Holy Sepulchre every Pascha (Easter).
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/

Signs and miracles must be under the Lord's supervision. When I post that a Bishop and Priests should witness whose candle the Lord lights up, the Catholic Church's or mine, does not mean I want to amuse myself. Which Bishop is will to come forth? Signs were not shown to the Jews, because the Lord knew they would do evil with it. They wanted Him to destory the Romans with His power.

Harry

 

[Orthodox Christian]

I'm hardly about to get "hot and bothered" by the assessment of my spiritual walk by a stranger on the internet. Your conjecture as to whether I'm saved or not saved, serving God or not serving God is meaningless and a waste of both your time and mine.

If you have truly gotten past your becoming upset over the truth about your condition being spoken to you, as you've shown time and time again in your whining about attacks on your person, then we've worked together to build maturity in you.

By "we" are you referring to Legion?

It seems to never be enough for you to say "I disagree." In your arrogance, you construct these elaborate buildups wherein no one else has quite the spiritual acumen that you have.

No, I disgaree,......... as I said above, this is a public forum, anyone can participate and in this participation express "spiritual acumen", or according to scripture, spiritual discernment and understanding.

Denial does not change the clear record of you making personal attacks, avoiding pointed questions, and kissing the posterior of those who might side with you.

I've seen this disorder often in my day, among those who fashion themselves prophets.

Never have I referred to myself as a prophet nor "fashioned" myself as a prophet.

I call it as I see it. I trust God to cover my speaking, I know that I am under the blood of our Lord, I believe the Spirit can quicken me in correction, and I make a habit of turning to my spirit so that I may present myself to God with an open open being.

"I'm not a prophet, I just speak for God." CJ, Sept 13, 2005

It is not enough to be led of God, but they must be the foremost.

You're funny,.

Indeed I am. I am an entertaining fellow. A cheerful heart is good medicine, and this makes me a doctor and you a bug or contagion.

.......... the foremost huh?

Coming from a worshiper of an folly institution that sets itself up as the foremost in the matter of the church of Christ, your words label you a hypocrite.

Pee Wee says "I know you are, but what am I."

They season their monologues with feigned humility, as you do, but should one challenge the veracity of their claims or the infallibility of their revelation, the sheep's clothing slides off and the fang and claw soon follow.

To date you have shown yourself incapable of "challenging" most of what I say on these boards, other than stating that what I say does not agree with the false doctrines of your beloved folly institution.

Hello, spirit of pride :smt039

As I told you months ago, I am more orthodox than you and those like you. I hold to the Head according to the pattern set by the One who in His new testament ended the death found in the ways of religion. This is something, no matter how your beloved institution trys to replicate the forms and traditions of the old testament, you will be unable to do. For the Way is not today found in forms and traditions, but is found in your regenerated spirit.

This is a marvelous episode of turd-polishing. Turn the rebellion into super-spirituality, after the fashion of your father :evil:

I don't agree with what you say or how you say it.

Poor OC, unable to even muster the fortitude to admits the truth.

OC, the fact is, much of what I say you do agree with, you simply won't admit it as to do so would seem to strenghten the position of one you have openly discounted.

In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts.

Kinda painted yourself into a corner haven't you.

How so?

No you did not, do not lie: you edited my comments, placing punctuation in them so as to link clauses in a manner I did not link them. We both know very well what you did.

OC,...... whatever you want to believe, the bottomline is, your speaking expose your ignorance regarding the ways of a new testament believer.

Really, you're just attemptong to smokescreen this fact.

Pot, Kettle, Black. You backpedaling from your obvious editorial and lying, for which you have been owned, and claiming it is I who have set the smokescreen? :

The remainder of your post is a collection of false dichotomies, and I won't be bothered to argue semantics- nor will I at this time debate with you your strange replacement theology.

You won't because you can't.

Over and over you have presented your take on scripture and time and time again I have exposed it as the falsehood that it is.

Post proof, don't just talk smack. Let's see it, right here.

Don't worry though, Lord willing, I'll remain on these boards and in the Lord enlighten, exhort, and encourage the saints.

In love,
cj

Yes, the rabble so enjoy the blood of the Arena.

I love the arrogance of a guy who says he'll enlighten others.
Or is it your recycled spirit that enlightens them- I can't keep your slogans and voices straight.

 

[cj]

By we are you referring to Legion?

Sorry, the demons with you have no hope, and as time passes you will find one by one you must leave them behind.

Denial does not change the clear record of you making personal attacks, avoiding pointed questions, and kissing the posterior of those who might side with you.

No, only attacks against that which you worship.

Now, if you want to take the works of Satan as your own, and get personally offended by my speaking against them, that's your choice.

As for avoiding pointed questions,..... I don't. Your deceiptful intention is just exposed by my answers.

"I'm not a prophet, I just speak for God." CJ, Sept 13, 2005

Certainly moreso than your beloved apostate institution and yourself, that's for sure.

Indeed I am. I am an entertaining fellow. A cheerful heart is good medicine, and this makes me a doctor and you a bug or contagion.

Whatever toots your horn OC, whatever toots your horn.

Pee Wee says "I know you are, but what am I."

Your words OC,...... your own words. That's all the saints need to look at.

Hello, spirit of pride

Says the lover of man and His ways.

This is a marvelous episode of turd-polishing. Turn the rebellion into super-spirituality, after the fashion of your father

Poor OC,...... "turd-polishing"........ did you get that term from the speaking of your wonderful folly doctrine?

Its hard isn't it,....... to restrain yourself by your own efforts.

You fail everytime OC...... everytime.

Your words are meaningless, but your exposed heart speak volumes of your poor condition.

In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts.

Never said I did,.... but I know something of the ways of my enemy.

Pot, Kettle, Black. You backpedaling from your obvious editorial and lying, for which you have been owned, and claiming it is I who have set the smokescreen?

I have no reason to backpeddle OC, it is what it is. You say this, I say that.

Post proof, don't just talk smack. Let's see it, right here.

Just go a few posts above and you will find all the proof you need.

You are incapable OC. The truth is you have no ground to stand on regarding the scriptures so you turn to the works of men to suggest a foundation.

Yes, the rabble so enjoy the blood of the Arena.

I love the arrogance of a guy who says he'll enlighten others.
Or is it your recycled spirit that enlightens them- I can't keep your slogans and voices straight.

Unlike you, I trust the Lord to complete what He has begun.


In love,
cj

 

[SpiritualSon]

The reason in the pass, statues of the virgin Mary were crying in blood, because the Word was falsified and misunderstood. A statue has eyes but can't see. The eyes are correspondences of the understanding.

The "eyes" are often used to signifiy the understanding, and an interior dictate therefrom, as in David:
Lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death Psalm 13:3.

The "eyes" denote the understanding. So in Ezekiel, speaking of churches who are not willing to understand, who "have eyes to see, and see not" Ezekiel 12:2.

In Isaiah:
Shut their eyes, lest they see with their eyes Isaiah 6:10,
denotes that they should be made blind, lest they should understand. So Moses said to the people, Jehovah hath not given you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear Deuteronomy 29:4, where "he art" denotes the will, and "eyes" denote the understanding.

In Isaiah it is said of the Lord, that "He should open the blind eyes" Isaiah 42:7).

And in the same Prophet: "The eyes of the blind shall see out of thick darkness and out of darkness" Isaiah 29:18.

Revelation 17:6
6. And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. This signifies the doctrines of that church being insane as the result of the adulterated and profaned Divine Truths and Goods of the Lord, of the Word, and of the Church. And I wondered, seeing her with a great wonder. This signifies astonishment at that religion being such interiorly, when yet exteriorly it appears otherwise.

Blood signifies truth of the Word. Being drunk with too much blood, signifies the Word falsified. This is done by misunderstanding the Word.

Harry

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Avoidance, deflection, PKBs, Pee Wee Hermans

I say "Post proof" you say

go look

When challenged, you deflect and avoid.

I asked "by we are you referring to Legion?"
You reply

Sorry, the demons with you have no hope

This is known as "I Know You Are But What Am I" and also known as IKYABWAI. This is the province of those who have nothing to say, but won't stop saying it.

After me pointing out that you deny pretending to be prophet, yet claim to speak for God (snerk), you say

Certainly moreso than your beloved apostate institution and yourself, that's for sure.

So denials turn to admissions, and the admissions as limp as the prophecies.
/pwned again

I quip

Indeed I am. I am an entertaining fellow. A cheerful heart is good medicine, and this makes me a doctor and you a bug or contagion

To this dry whit you respond

Whatever toots your horn OC

So much for witty repartee. Let's move on, Mr Wilde.

I say "Hello, spirit of pride"
to which you reply

Says the lover of man and His ways.

Not only is that another Pee Wee Herman drive-by, it demonstrates something I've been aware of from the first. Consider:
I am accused of being a lover of man. What are the commands?
Love the Lord with all of your being, AND the second, like it,
Love your neighbor as yourself.

Yes, I do love man, or more accurately, anthropos, mankind.
That you accuse me of such affirms your dislike and distaste for mankind...as I perceived from the beginning.
But it doesn't take a prophet to figure that out. :

Now watch how you slipinto the noose of your own words:

I said "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts."

You reply

Never said I did

Now why did I say "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts?"

Because you had said

OC, the fact is, much of what I say you do agree with, you simply won't admit it

But you never claimed to know my thoughts
/pwned, again.

When you said

Kinda painted yourself into a corner haven't you

I asked "how so?"
Your reply

.

A whole lot of nothing.

I could go on, but the point is made. You will not debate issues in a decent manner, you won't even deal with what is the subject of the thread in the course of your insults. When challenged to cease generalizations and get specific, you avoid, deflect, and/or find another mode of attack.

TLTBW
too lame to bother with

Let us now return to the subject at hand- it does no one any good to see you horse-whipped, textually speaking.

 

[Relic]

Orthodox Christian wrote:
By we are you referring to Legion?

cj wrote:
Sorry, the demons with you have no hope, and as time passes you will find one by one you must leave them behind.

: :smt044

cj, That's the Gospel truth for every one of us!

The "Good News" of what is in the Gospel, for sure!


We shall overcome! :smt023


Ephesians 6:11-12
6:11 - Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 - For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

.

 

[cj]

Now watch how you slipinto the noose of your own words:

I said "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts."

You reply

Never said I did

Now why did I say "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts?"

Because you had said
[quote:aa1b7]OC, the fact is, much of what I say you do agree with, you simply won't admit it

But you never claimed to know my thoughts
/pwned, again.[/quote:aa1b7]

You're to smart for your own good OC.......

I don't know your thoughts OC, but I know something of the ways of the adversary of God.

Satan knows the truth, but he can't/won't admit it, until that is, the day on which every knee will bow and every tongue will confess it.


Try reading the verses in Paul's epistle to the Romans, where he speaks on the matter of having differing laws working within him.


Yet again OC, you expose your ignorance of the truth contained in the scriptures.


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Now watch how you slipinto the noose of your own words:

I said "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts."

You reply

Never said I did

Now why did I say "In spite of what the voices tell you, you do not know my thoughts?"

Because you had said
[quote:15d3b]OC, the fact is, much of what I say you do agree with, you simply won't admit it

But you never claimed to know my thoughts
/pwned, again.

You're to smart for your own good OC.......

I don't know your thoughts OC, but I know something of the ways of the adversary of God.

Satan knows the truth, but he can't/won't admit it, until that is, the day on which every knee will bow and every tongue will confess it.


Try reading the verses in Paul's epistle to the Romans, where he speaks on the matter of having differing laws working within him.


Yet again OC, you expose your ignorance of the truth contained in the scriptures.


In love,
cj[/quote:15d3b]
Satan doesn't "know" the truth, CJ, for he holds it to be a lie. He simply knows the argument.

 

[cj]

Satan doesn't "know" the truth, CJ, for he holds it to be a lie. He simply knows the argument.

"Satan does not know the truth,...."

I wonder then, can a creature be judged for that which this creature is ignorant of?

Would this be righteous judgement?

What does scripture tell us regarding Satan and truth?


On another note, scripture tells us that all things are upheld by God,.... this is the truth, are you telling me that Satan comes into te very presence of God in denial of this truth.


Rebellion is not ignorance of something OC, rebellion is a willful rejection of something. And the iniquity of Satan is found in his rebellious nature.


See, absolutely no speaking about the apostate Orthodox institution you serve, in my above speaking. I can continue in this vein, and even desire to, if we stick to the simple, and truly "orthodox" matters of our belief and walk.

In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Satan doesn't "know" the truth, CJ, for he holds it to be a lie. He simply knows the argument.

"Satan does not know the truth,...."

I wonder then, can a creature be judged for that which this creature is ignorant of?

Would this be righteous judgement?

What does scripture tell us regarding Satan and truth?


On another note, scripture tells us that all things are upheld by God,.... this is the truth, are you telling me that Satan comes into te very presence of God in denial of this truth.


Rebellion is not ignorance of something OC, rebellion is a willful rejection of something. And the iniquity of Satan is found in his rebellious nature.

Shall I take you by the hand and sound out the vowels, CJ? What do you think 'knowing' is? If one truly knows, one does. To the degree that they do not do, they do not know. Not only is Satan the Deceiver, he is also deceived.

Rebellion is simply resistance to power. Rebellion is found in the brute beast, as you prove day in and day out.
God's truth and grace shine in every corner of the universe, right into the eyes of Satan and his kin. They love the darkness, and refuse to come to the light, to know the truth.

How remedial must this become?

See, absolutely no speaking about the apostate Orthodox institution you serve, in my above speaking. I can continue in this vein, and even desire to, if we stick to the simple, and truly "orthodox" matters of our belief and walk.

In love,
cj

More empty, egotistical pratter from a smoldering wick. Crank up the Light, it might hurt your unused eyes for a while, but even the subterranean can grow accustomed to Son light.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Knowledge is necessary for faith, but there is more to believing than knowing. The devil “knows†far more than any Christian “knows.â€Â

Unknown Source

Knowing requires action. Satan's action was rebellion against known authority of God.

just a thought

Orthodoxy

 

[cj]

Knowledge is necessary for faith, but there is more to believing than knowing. The devil “knows†far more than any Christian “knows.â€Â

Unknown Source

Knowing requires action. Satan's action was rebellion against known authority of God.

just a thought

Orthodoxy

Wow Orthodoxy, I'm impressed.

Pity your post did not come before OC put his foot in his mouth again though.

In love,
cj