The "Secret Rapture" - What You Should Know

[Vic C.]

Coop, I did read The Sign with preconceived beliefs; I was a believer in classic PreTribulation when I read it and it changed my beliefs. You place many of the seals before the 70th. week, which no classic 70th. week theory does, therefore any attempt we make to convince you otherwise will fall upon deaf ears. That's just the way is is; I don't see you changing your beliefs in the seals to conform to any other theory. Sorry. :-?

I have no problem whatsoever with this chart and simple outline of Revelation:

chart and outline

I also have no problem believing that seal five and Rev 12 are both the same timeframe:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

8:1 "when he had opened the seventh seal" [Start of the "Day" and "week"]

Pure speculation. You assume this is the start of the week because you place some seals outside of the week. Therefore you have no choice but to start the week here. This is nonconformity.

[The following events will take place during the first half of the 70th week]

More speculation, due to the reason I stated above.

John, for the most part, gives us the events in the order that they will take place.

He does? Hmm... why then, are these verses before Rev 12, which we both agree is the midpoint?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified....
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The above is happenning at the end of the second half.
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Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Remnant? What remnant? Oh! The remnant that John talks about in Rev 12:17.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Wrath? This is the same wrath that was first mentioned at the end of Rev 6 and in Rev 12:12.

________________________________________________________________________

Hmm, what do we have here?

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

and:

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

This is where the third woe begins, but this is at the end of the week, not the midpoint. Is there two revealings of God's temple?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel sounds off, he is declaring the end of the week.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This tells us that God's Wrath is about to end. All that is left is the battle at Armageddon; which is also after the end of the week.

You are assuming that John rehashes old events because you come to Revelation with preconceived ideas! Please, if you want the readers to believe this, show us some scriptures and reasoning from Revelation to back this up.

First of all, I never said John rehashes old events; I said John goes back to elaborate on additional events which take place within the same timeframe as some of the seals and trumpets.

All any reader has to do is read Revelation carefully to see that John does indeed do what many claim he does.

Where then, is the midpoint of the week, in Revelation? Again, the Holy Spirit told me that it is "clearly marked."

I guess you weren't listening to the Spirit when he mentioned that apocalyptic writers do write in a way that is not completely chronoligical.

There is one thing you didn't really answer:

Read Rev chs. 20 and 21 in reverse order. They make more sense from a chronological perspective. How can Rev 21:27 take place when Rev 20:13-15 has already happened?

Lets look at this for a moment:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

We can debate on what happens to them in the Lake. (no comments Ben-LOL) We can say they were purified in the fire; we can say they were improsioned in hell for all eternity; we can simply say they perished. Whatever the outcome; any evil that existed aroud them or within them does not exist anymore.

Now, Rev 21:27 says:

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If evil was destroyed before this (Rev 20:13-15), how can anything or anyone be around to defile or work abomination or lie? Something is chronologically wrong here, wouldn't you say?

 

[lecoop]

Thanks for your reply, Vic!

Coop, I did read The Sign with preconceived beliefs; I was a believer in classic PreTribulation when I read it and it changed my beliefs. You place many of the seals before the 70th. week, which no classic 70th. week theory does, therefore any attempt we make to convince you otherwise will fall upon deaf ears. That's just the way is is; I don't see you changing your beliefs in the seals to conform to any other theory. Sorry. :-?

You are correct. I came into my study as a classic pre-trib, but not a studied one. I was led by the HS to study, and for the last three years or so, have not gotton away from it. Then, as you know, the HS started giving me revelation knowledge, so I do NOT believe everything as the classic pre-trib doctrine. Some of it, like the 4:1 rapture, is ludicrous! No, I will probably not be convinced away from that revelation knowledge. But I strive to be open to Him, else that revelation knowledge will stop. I also strive not to get into pride, for the same reason. And I still need MUCH revelation knowledge, especially on chapters 17-18! Truly though, I have only had revelation knowledge of a very small portion of the book, but it is the portion that we are in disagreement over! I want more!

...
I also have no problem believing that seal five and Rev 12 are both the same timeframe:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is well and good. But since we both believe the first four seals were broken long ago, the 5th seal could have been also. We both know that people have been dying for their testimony since Stephen. So this seal could well refer to Stephen and all those since then. But are they the same as the Rev. 12 group? Most people believe that those killed during the 70th week will be beheaded.


I guess you weren't listening to the Spirit when he mentioned that apocalyptic writers do write in a way that is not completely chronoligical.

Yes, of course I was listening. But Jesus went straight through time in a very chronological order in the Olivet discourse. And the simple verses in Revelation do the same, i.e., 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials.

There is one thing you didn't really answer:

Read Rev chs. 20 and 21 in reverse order. They make more sense from a chronological perspective. How can Rev 21:27 take place when Rev 20:13-15 has already happened?

Lets look at this for a moment:

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

OK. Still don't know where you are going...

We can debate on what happens to them in the Lake. (no comments Ben-LOL) We can say they were purified in the fire; we can say they were improsioned in hell for all eternity; we can simply say they perished. Whatever the outcome; any evil that existed aroud them or within them does not exist anymore.

Now, Rev 21:27 says:

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

If evil was destroyed before this (Rev 20:13-15), how can anything or anyone be around to defile or work abomination or lie? Something is chronologically wrong here, wouldn't you say?

I see what you are saying now. However, it seems to me that the scriptures point to everlasting punishment; that is, these people still remain, and will for eternity, but are confined to a certain place. They can and will never get into the city, even thought they live forever as we will. Now let me suggest something else. Will everyone that gets to heaven, be allowed free access into the city? I say this because many people get born again, and become God's children, but still live a life of sin. Others still stay a baby Christian all their life. Let's face it: many born again people sin, and don't immediately repent. The bible just does not answer these questions.

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,
Quote:
8:1 "when he had opened the seventh seal" [Start of the "Day" and "week"]

Pure speculation. You assume this is the start of the week because you place some seals outside of the week. Therefore you have no choice but to start the week here. This is nonconformity.

No, not at all! You and I both know that Joel shows the cosmic signs as coming before the day of the Lord. Isaiah 2 also points to the 6th seal, just as the Joel prophecy does. This is a "double header" showing that the signs for the immediate start of the day of the Lord, will be very shortly after the 6th seal. What is next? Of course the 7th seal. Why do I start the week here also?

The Holy Spirit pointed me to search for the exact midpoint. (I did not seek that at all: it was God. But after He said that I could find the exact midpoint, "clearly marked." Of course I searched for it. He ended that time telling me I could also find the entire 70th week "clearly marked." Of course, after I found the midpoint, I looked for the markers for the entire week. I know this did not happen to you - it happened to me! You can never know what I felt when the Holy Spirit showed me that the "pointer" for the exact midpoint was the 7th trumpet. I had read chapters 11-13 over and over many times, because He had told me to look for the places where the 3 1/2 years were mentioned. It was just "suddenly" when I read 11:15. It was like a lightning bolt! I then noticed that it was a "real-time" event in the middle of an intermission. As soon as that revelation knowledge came, and I realized that the HS used a "7" as a "marker," I rushed to see what the 7th vial said. I read, "it is finished." Then I knew that God had used the 7's as markers. I then rushed to look at the 7th seal. This knowledge fits perfectly with the entire chronology of Revelation. That is why I see the 70th week starting at the same time as the day of the Lord. Neither do I see any reason to say that John "backpeddles." If you could find some proof of this, I would read it with anticipation. I just can't see it. I don't believe there is anything in the book of Revelation that would verify this.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

He does? Hmm... why then, are these verses before Rev 12, which we both agree is the midpoint?

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified....
Rev 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

The above is happenning at the end of the second half.

Remember, I said, "for the most part." From chapter 11 to chapter 13, when John is introduced to an event or character, God, in the vision, then follows that event or charactor to the the end of the week, as He said when He spoke to me "when ever I mentioned an event that started at the midpoint, and continued to the end of the week, I always mentioned the 3 1/2 years." Therefore, the chronology of the two witnesses is not in their entire story, but in the first verse, where John is introduced to them.

To make this even more difficult, sometimes God starts the introduction to John with some history, as in the Rev. 4 vision, the dragon (chapter 12) and the beast (chapter 13). However, if you take away the history, and then the "rest of the story," what is left, is chronological. For example:

11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; [marks the exact midpoint in heaven, and happens at the same time as the abomination event on earth]
12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. [She is fleeing after seeing the abomination]

These two events will happen one right after the other. Verses 1-5 in chapter 12 is John's "history lesson" on what the dragon did when Jesus was born. Chapter 11, verses 16 on are worship that takes place right at the midpoint. Along with that worship is some prophecy:

11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Therefore, as you point out, the last part of the story of the two witnesses does indeed happen at the end of the week. However, they are introduced to John in perfect chronological order, just before the 7th trumpet marks the exact midpoint.

Good observation, Vic! : -))

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic said

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Remnant? What remnant? Oh! The remnant that John talks about in Rev 12:17.

No, sorry! "Remnant" here in verse 13 just means those "remaining; the rest." 7000 died, but some did not. It was the "some" that lived through the earthquake that John called "the remnant."

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.


Who flees? Those in Judea that see the abomination event and know to flee. So a certain part of the population of Judea and surrounding areas flee, but the "remnant" or those "remaining" or "the rest," (Thayers) are those that stayed and did not flee, that John calls the "remnant." They did not heed Jesus' warning, so they are not going to be protected, and will undoubtedly be beheaded!

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Wrath? This is the same wrath that was first mentioned at the end of Rev 6 and in Rev 12:12.

Yes, same wrath! God does not get angry twice here! His wrath starts at the 6th seal, or soon thereafter, and continues building until after the battle of Armegeddon. I guess you know, the "is come" is a Greek "Second Aorist" and does not give us the information of "when." These type of Greek verbs are not inflected to show timing: "the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time." (Thayers).

Therefore, the most we can get about the timing of God's wrath here is that it already started, is about to start, or will start! However, we probably do see His wrath in this phrase, "shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." This verse is a prophcy of future events that came during worship.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

Vic said,

Hmm, what do we have here?

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

and:

Rev 15:5 And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:
Rev 15:6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

This is where the third woe begins, but this is at the end of the week, not the midpoint. Is there two revealings of God's temple?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the seventh angel sounds off, he is declaring the end of the week.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This tells us that God's Wrath is about to end. All that is left is the battle at Armageddon; which is also after the end of the week.

First off, I don't think there was great hail falling around the throne of God: I believe this was a preview of future events to happen on earth, shown to John in the vision. Next, we also read about the temple being closed, or it seems to be closed:

8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

I see no problem with the temple being opened, then closed, then opened. Do you?

You said,

"This is where the third woe begins, but this is at the end of the week, not the midpoint. Is there two revealings of God's temple?"

Sorry, but you missed this:

8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

9:1 And the fifth angel sounded..
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded,
11:14 The second woe is past;...

We read that the woes are the sounding of a trumpet, and then what takes place at that sounding. We see the first and second woe at the 5th and 6th trumpet. It follows then, that the 3rd woe will begin at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. This trumpet "marks" the exact midpoint, and the point in time that Adam's lease runs out and God once again takes possession of earth. It is also the time that Jesus takes back to Himself His great power! It is also the same time that the abomination event starts the time of greatest persecuntion ever to come on earth.

You said,

"This is where the third woe begins, but this is at the end of the week, not the midpoint.."

The end of the week does not come until the 7th vial: "it is done." (or finished, depending on which translation.) John sees the temple several times. Is this one more significant than the others? Am I missing something here?

You said,

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

"When the seventh angel sounds off, he is declaring the end of the week. "

No, I don't think this angel is not proclaiming the end of the week! I believe this mystery is this:

Col 1
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

And this:

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

I believe that at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, the fulness of the Gentiles will have come in, and the church age will be finished. I don't think this is at all speaking of the end of the week.

You said:

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

"This tells us that God's Wrath is about to end. All that is left is the battle at Armageddon; which is also after the end of the week."

This verse 17, shows the end of the week!

Coop