The seven churches

[GraceBwithU]

The seven churches, located in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, were listed in their geographical order along an ancient triangular highway route, touching on The Aegean Sea. The island of Patmos, where John was given to write the book of Revelation, is just off the coast. Beginning at Ephesus, it was about 100 miles north through Smyrna, up to Pergamum, and then about another 100 miles back southeast through Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, to Laodicea, which was about 100 miles east of Ephesus.

I believe that what Christ has to say about each of these churches has a much needed message to His church as a whole. They all represent a different message to us.

Rev 2:1-7
1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

He was obviously was pleased with them at first.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

These verses stir questions.
What is thy first love?
What is the first works?
Does the statement ‘remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.†mean the once saved always saved teaching and the “P†of the TULIP is not really an eternal promise, but it is conditional?


6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
KJV

 

[Vic C.]

Ah, a topic with some meat to it! :-D Good questions.

I can answer one right off the bat:

Their (and our) first love is Jesus Himself. First works; I believe this to be a reference to the Great Commission, but I have to do some research and look over some notes I have concerning this and the candlestick references.

Keep in mind Revelation is very Jewish in nature. ;-)

 

[Vic C.]

Added to first works would be to love the Lord and your neighbors. Those two commands actually come before the great commission.

Checked my bookmarked links and quickly came up with this:

The Voice that spoke with John, belonged to the LORD Jesus. The "seven golden candlesticks" allude to the candlesticks of the Sanctuary for the nation of Israel. This seven branched candlestick, known as the menorah, may be seen represented on the Arch of Titus at Rome, taken as the spoils of war (70 AD). "And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it" (Exodus 25:37).

Though Israel ultimately failed to hold the "Law [that] is Light" (Proverbs 6:23) up to the world, the Church has received a similar commission to bear the Light-- as "seven golden candlesticks"-- to the world. A candlestick is not the light; however, it does lift up the flame, which gives off the light. And, that Light is Jesus Christ, Who said, "I am the Light of the World" (John 8:12).

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Th ... ons.1.html

I'm assuming that to remove the candlestick would be akin to removing the very source of Light from the ekklesia in Ephesus.

Does the statement ‘remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.†mean the once saved always saved teaching and the “P†of the TULIP is not really an eternal promise, but it is conditional?

I truly believe this was specifically meant for Ephesus. I believe OSAS is different than Perseverance of the Saints. One of our Calvinist members might explain that better than I could.

 

[handy]

This topic could quickly become another endless debate over OSAS, if we're not careful. And, I hope we're careful, because this promises to be a good study.

I think it would be a great mistake to not look at verse 5 in the context of verse 7. I'm not a big Once Saved, Always Saved fan, but I do believe that God preserves His saints.

BUT, before we get into this, I would like to try to resolve one question that always nags me when studying these messages to the churches. Here is the question:

As these messages are specifically directed towards the churches, can and should they be interpreted as having meaning to the individual christian?

In other words, a local church, such as the church at Ephesus can die out, but that doesn't mean that the faithful who were there lost salvation (if such a thing is possible) or anything. For example, the church that I was baptized in is now a karate school. There is no longer a Denair Missionary Church. As a church, its candlestick has been removed. But, as individuals, the former pastor, his wife, my sisters and their husbands, my mom and dad, me; we're all still walking the walk here.

To me, this is a very key question to resolve before wading into the OSAS/PofS issue.

 

[handy]

I truly believe this was specifically meant for Ephesus. I believe OSAS is different than Perseverance of the Saints. One of our Calvinist members might explain that better than I could.

Indeed it is. OSAS is not at all the same as Perseverance of the Saints. But, I'll not go on here, because I really would like the question I asked above to be addressed first.

 

[Vic C.]

As these messages are specifically directed towards the churches, can and should they be interpreted as having meaning to the individual Christian?

I believe the answer is yes and I'm glad you added "individual Christian". Here are my thoughts:

Two of the seven churches instantly come to mind; the church of Philadelphia and the church of Laodicea. The church of Laodicea consists of any church or individual which falls away from sound doctrine; in other words, becomes apostate. The church of Philadelphia consists of those individuals who come out of such churches; they are called out by God for their patient endurance. The Revelation 3:7-10 passage contains very comforting words for these called out individuals.

 

[handy]

Then, in the spirit of looking at these messages as to the individual chrisitan as well as to local churches, I'll share my thoughts on Rev 2:1-7

To me, one of the most important things to look at when studying a chapter is context. The context of verse 5 then cannot be lifted out of verses1-4 and 6-7.

Verses 1-3 catalogs all the comendable deeds of the church: They toil and perservere; they don't put up with evil men; they expose false prophets. And again, our Lord mentions their perseverance and endurace for His name's sake.

The problem facing the Ephesians then is not that they have left off doing the deeds of good Christians. But, they are not doing these deeds out of a sense of love for the Lord. They have left their first love. In this they are breaking that first and greatest of all the commandment God gives us, "You shall love the Lord with all your heart, and all your soul and all your mind." Perserverance is a good thing, but only when the motivation for perserverance is correct. Think about it, the Pharisees were very perservering in their application to the Law. They too, though, had lost their first love. It wasn't enough that the Ephesians were continuing on doing the deeds of the church. Christ even commends them in the midst of His warning that they hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which some believe to be a sect of promiscuity. But again, the Pharisees would also have hated promiscuity. The problem with the Ephesians was that they had lost the reason for doing what they did and therefore were in a very dangerous situation.

The difference between Perserverance of the Saints and OSAS is this: Perserverance of the Saints is the doctrine that completes the process of the TULIP, in that those whom God calls, He preserves until the end. According to this doctrine, those who appear to have fallen away will either, through God's grace repent and continue on in grace, or we can surmise that they were never saved in the first place. OSAS, seems to teach that whether one repents or not, if they have at any time been "saved" they are always then "saved". Should one fall away, there is still the hope that they will be saved, as they were forgiven for their sin, 'once for all time' on the cross.

Frankly, I don't really agree with either stand. I do believe however that God preserves His saints. That to all who are His, He will continue to work with them, even as they weary and begin to lose perserverance, in order to preserve them to the end. This might on the surface sound like the Calvinist doctrine, but it isn't, because I believe that it is very, most dangerously, possible for one to lose one's way and not finish. And, since we are going to apply these verses to individual Christians, then this passage makes it very clear that one can indeed lose one's salvation.

Again, we cannot lift verse 5 out of the rest of the text. Our Lord is very clearly warning the Ephesians, and all of us who begin to lose our love for the Lord, that if they do not repent of this loss of love, if they do not rekindle the fire of their first passion for Christ, He will indeed remove the lampstand. Verse 7 states that only those who overcome will be granted the priviledge of eating from the Tree of Life.

What then of God's preserving of His saints? I think we see this in action right here. Christ very boldly tells the Ephesians what they are facing and gives them the bleak alternative if they don't repent. Calls to repentence, exhortations to persevere, warnings and promises of rewards all go into God's faithfulness to bring us to the Tree of Life. I don't think these warnings and exhortations are bluffs. I don't think for a minute that Christ is in any way bluffing when He said He would remove the lampstand, and that one must overcome to eat of the Tree of Life. But, I do believe that He is there with us, every step of the way, faithful to us to the end, and faithful to forgive and restore when we do repent.

 

[GraceBwithU]

I just stopped by to read any post that might be here. They are all excellent. It's late so I will respond to some tomorrow. But I will say quickly that this can easily be applied to the individual.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The seven churches, located in Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, were listed in their geographical order along an ancient triangular highway route, touching on The Aegean Sea.. ....Does the statement ‘remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.†mean the once saved always saved teaching and the “P†of the TULIP is not really an eternal promise, but it is conditional?

1) I believe that the seven Churches was the authors way of addressing the whole Church. Sevedn is a number of completeness.
2) I do believe salvation is conditional on obedience to Christ's commands: "If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end will not be saved.

 

[JeremiahD]

What if these 7 churches represent 7 different "eras" of the church from the time it was created, to the time of Christs return to the earth?

It says:

Revelation 1:20
20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

When you look up the word "angel" for these two verses (and the word "angel" for each of the message to the seven churches) in a concordance it says "angel" refers to the Greek word number 32. When you look up word number 32 in the Greek, it says it is: aggelos which is defined as meaning: "messenger", not "angel" as in the spiritual being.

So in all do respect it reads: Unto the "messenger" of the church of Ephesus write.....

There was only one person who went the rout of the seven physical churches...so why would it refer again and again to a "messenger" if it was the same person? Look it up for yourself...in a concordance.

If it was the same messenger, it would have said something like: have "the" messenger go to each church and give them the following messages...wouldn't it?

The seven stars are the "messengers" of the seven churches:

 

[GraceBwithU]

What if these 7 churches represent 7 different "eras" of the church from the time it was created, to the time of Christs return to the earth?

It says:

Revelation 1:20
20The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1
1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

When you look up the word "angel" for these two verses (and the word "angel" for each of the message to the seven churches) in a concordance it says "angel" refers to the Greek word number 32. When you look up word number 32 in the Greek, it says it is: aggelos which is defined as meaning: "messenger", not "angel" as in the spiritual being.

So in all do respect it reads: Unto the "messenger" of the church of Ephesus write.....

There was only one person who went the rout of the seven physical churches...so why would it refer again and again to a "messenger" if it was the same person? Look it up for yourself...in a concordance.

If it was the same messenger, it would have said something like: have "the" messenger go to each church and give them the following messages...wouldn't it?

The seven stars are the "messengers" of the seven churches:

You certainly understand the word angel in these scriptures. However I'm not sure it is one messenger. after all you just stated yourself that the seven stars, (not one) are the messengers.
And one more thing angels are messengers though out the Bible. Why would you conclude that because the word angle=messenger that the messenger was a person?

 

[JeremiahD]

Well mainly because of "life". Have you ever heard, from any church, anywhere in the world, that and Angel showed up with the message that was written here in the book of revelations for each church? Have you ever read anywhere in scripture where and angel showed up giving these messages to each of the churches? Have you read any prophecy that explains that Angels are to give these messages other then right here in Revelation?

It could be "angels" as in the spirit beings that live with God in heaven, but if it is, then where is the other scriptures to make this so? I am just asking, just curious. Seems to me this is one of those areas of the bible where people are "unsure" or "confused" about. Usually this means that everyone is reading it wrong, but not always.

Also if we keep things in "context" these messages are to the churches from a person...from John. A person was to go and deliver them. So the "messenger" should be a person, but perhaps I have come to the wrong conclusion here.

Revelation 1:4 (KJV)
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


Revelation 1:11
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Then after all that is stated we read that the the "messenger" is to say these messages to each of the churches.
So I asked to see what others thought of it all.

 

[GraceBwithU]

Well mainly because of "life". Have you ever heard, from any church, anywhere in the world, that and Angel showed up with the message that was written here in the book of revelations for each church? Have you ever read anywhere in scripture where and angel showed up giving these messages to each of the churches? Have you read any prophecy that explains that Angels are to give these messages other then right here in Revelation?

It could be "angels" as in the spirit beings that live with God in heaven, but if it is, then where is the other scriptures to make this so? I am just asking, just curious. Seems to me this is one of those areas of the bible where people are "unsure" or "confused" about. Usually this means that everyone is reading it wrong, but not always.

Also if we keep things in "context" these messages are to the churches from a person...from John. A person was to go and deliver them. So the "messenger" should be a person, but perhaps I have come to the wrong conclusion here.

Revelation 1:4 (KJV)
4John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;


Revelation 1:11
11Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Then after all that is stated we read that the the "messenger" is to say these messages to each of the churches.
So I asked to see what others thought of it all.

You have raised an interesting point. I'll think about it some before I respond.

 

[Vic C.]

Also if we keep things in "context" these messages are to the churches from a person...from John. A person was to go and deliver them. So the "messenger" should be a person, but perhaps I have come to the wrong conclusion here.

No, I believe you are correct. 8-)

These were real churches in the first century. Sure, spiritually these could also be references to different church ages throughout the centuries. It could be both at the time it was written; one of those twofold thingys. But there were times when messages needed to get to all these churches within the same relative time period. It would be nearly impossible for one messenger to do this.

I believe John was instructed to write each one of these messages and send them on their way, as a warning that judgment against Israel was on it's way. There ware many Jewish believers and Judaizers in the churches when this was written. Plus, there were no longer seven Asian churches near the end of the first century.

 

[Righteousone]

Let's talk T.U.L.I.P.
There are 5 points of Calvinism. It is known as Tulip. NONE ARE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE. All 5 points must be accepted or rejected as a unit. Refute any one element and the whole system fails. (domino effect).
Did you know that Calvin was a Lutheran before he became a Calvinist? Luther and Calvin contradicted themselves because they claimed to use the Bible only, then went on to writing creeds in addition to the bible. It is what it is.

 

[Vic C.]

Let's talk T.U.L.I.P.
There are 5 points of Calvinism. It is known as Tulip. NONE ARE TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE. All 5 points must be accepted or rejected as a unit. Refute any one element and the whole system fails. (domino effect).
Did you know that Calvin was a Lutheran before he became a Calvinist? Luther and Calvin contradicted themselves because they claimed to use the Bible only, then went on to writing creeds in addition to the bible. It is what it is.

... and this has "what" to do with the seven churches? Are you suggesting we study Revelation using some sort of systematic theology? I'm confused.

 

[Righteousone]

Then, in the spirit of looking at these messages as to the individual chrisitan as well as to local churches, I'll share my thoughts on Rev 2:1-7

To me, one of the most important things to look at when studying a chapter is context. The context of verse 5 then cannot be lifted out of verses1-4 and 6-7.

Verses 1-3 catalogs all the comendable deeds of the church: They toil and perservere; they don't put up with evil men; they expose false prophets. And again, our Lord mentions their perseverance and endurace for His name's sake.

The problem facing the Ephesians then is not that they have left off doing the deeds of good Christians. But, they are not doing these deeds out of a sense of love for the Lord. They have left their first love. In this they are breaking that first and greatest of all the commandment God gives us, "You shall love the Lord with all your heart, and all your soul and all your mind." Perserverance is a good thing, but only when the motivation for perserverance is correct. Think about it, the Pharisees were very perservering in their application to the Law. They too, though, had lost their first love. It wasn't enough that the Ephesians were continuing on doing the deeds of the church. Christ even commends them in the midst of His warning that they hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which some believe to be a sect of promiscuity. But again, the Pharisees would also have hated promiscuity. The problem with the Ephesians was that they had lost the reason for doing what they did and therefore were in a very dangerous situation.

The difference between Perserverance of the Saints and OSAS is this: Perserverance of the Saints is the doctrine that completes the process of the TULIP, in that those whom God calls, He preserves until the end. According to this doctrine, those who appear to have fallen away will either, through God's grace repent and continue on in grace, or we can surmise that they were never saved in the first place. OSAS, seems to teach that whether one repents or not, if they have at any time been "saved" they are always then "saved". Should one fall away, there is still the hope that they will be saved, as they were forgiven for their sin, 'once for all time' on the cross.

Frankly, I don't really agree with either stand. I do believe however that God preserves His saints. That to all who are His, He will continue to work with them, even as they weary and begin to lose perserverance, in order to preserve them to the end. This might on the surface sound like the Calvinist doctrine, but it isn't, because I believe that it is very, most dangerously, possible for one to lose one's way and not finish. And, since we are going to apply these verses to individual Christians, then this passage makes it very clear that one can indeed lose one's salvation.

Again, we cannot lift verse 5 out of the rest of the text. Our Lord is very clearly warning the Ephesians, and all of us who begin to lose our love for the Lord, that if they do not repent of this loss of love, if they do not rekindle the fire of their first passion for Christ, He will indeed remove the lampstand. Verse 7 states that only those who overcome will be granted the priviledge of eating from the Tree of Life.

What then of God's preserving of His saints? I think we see this in action right here. Christ very boldly tells the Ephesians what they are facing and gives them the bleak alternative if they don't repent. Calls to repentence, exhortations to persevere, warnings and promises of rewards all go into God's faithfulness to bring us to the Tree of Life. I don't think these warnings and exhortations are bluffs. I don't think for a minute that Christ is in any way bluffing when He said He would remove the lampstand, and that one must overcome to eat of the Tree of Life. But, I do believe that He is there with us, every step of the way, faithful to us to the end, and faithful to forgive and restore when we do repent.

You are the one who brought up the tulip here in yor post...thought I'd add what I know about it.

 

[Vic C.]

You are the one who brought up the tulip here in yor post...thought I'd add what I know about it.

Ah, right, Handy's post. Now I understand. ;-)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You are the one who brought up the tulip here in yor post...thought I'd add what I know about it.

Ah, right, Handy's post. Now I understand. ;-)

TULIP = very bad :x

 

[JeremiahD]

Also if we keep things in "context" these messages are to the churches from a person...from John. A person was to go and deliver them. So the "messenger" should be a person, but perhaps I have come to the wrong conclusion here.

No, I believe you are correct. 8-)

These were real churches in the first century. Sure, spiritually these could also be references to different church ages throughout the centuries. It could be both at the time it was written; one of those twofold thingys. But there were times when messages needed to get to all these churches within the same relative time period. It would be nearly impossible for one messenger to do this.

I believe John was instructed to write each one of these messages and send them on their way, as a warning that judgment against Israel was on it's way. There ware many Jewish believers and Judaizers in the churches when this was written. Plus, there were no longer seven Asian churches near the end of the first century.

Ok but that represents three problems.
1) You stated (and rightly so according to church history):

there were no longer seven Asian churches near the end of the first century.

This book was written in 90AD. So these churches were fading out (some of them).

2) If these messages were for the seven churches that existed at the time, why then would Jesus (notice it is red in the authoritative version) have him recorded in the "book" for later use? Some say because it applies on a "personal" level, but I don't by that because of this:

3) The letter was not to a group of people, but to a specific person or angel.
Revelation 2

1Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

This message was to the "angel" or the "messenger" not the to the church itself....but to the messenger (single person) of the church, which implies that the "messenger" would then give it to the church.

Even if there were multiple "messengers" those messengers where to give the message to yet another messenger of the church itself (like a preacher, or "father", or minister, or whatever) who would then deliver it to the church.

This gives the impression that it was not to "everyone" on a personal level, and it also gives the impression that it was not to the "current" seven churches of the time or else their would be no need to have it added to the book.

Something to think about.