The Son of God and our sin nature … WOW!

[John Zain]

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Please see post #2
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[John Zain]

Christians believe the Word (the Logos) is the Second Person of the Triune Godhead,
and that it was this Logos who came to earth and became flesh (Jesus Christ).
“… the Word was God … and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (John 1:1-14).
“God was manifested in the flesh” (1 Timothy 3:16).
“That Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).
But, how could GOD actually be the Son of someone … even the Son of God?
This drove me crazy for a while, because I had forgotten some of this …

Matthew 1:18-23
“… After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. … an angel of the Lord (Gabriel) appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, ‘… that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.’ … Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which is translated, ‘God with us’. ”

Luke 1:26-35
“… the angel Gabriel was sent by God … to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph … ‘… And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son’ … Then Mary said to the angel, ‘How can this be, since I do not know a man?’ And the angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will over-shadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.’ ”

Several Scripture verses tell us that Jesus never sinned, that He was without sin.
This sinless human called “Jesus” actually had some so-called “parents”.
His mother was Mary, who had man's sin nature.
His “father” was the Holy Spirit (i.e. God), who did NOT have man's sin nature.
So, this is why Jesus’ name/title “Son of God” is NOT so crazy after all.
Jesus “father” really was God. Technically, He was God's Son, He really WAS the Son of God.

Surely, this is the ONLY time that this has ever happened,
so Jesus was God's “ONLY-begotten” Son.
This is what I believe, until someone proves me wrong.

And this is why the sin nature is carried in man's sperm, and not in anyone’s blood.
Question …
Did the Holy Spirit provide sperm (or did He perform a creative miracle) in Mary’s womb?
God put curses on everyone involved with the Fall of Man: on Satan, on Adam, and on Eve.
Question …
Why didn’t God mention the tainting of the male sperm?

God’s sinless human was necessary
Scripture reveals the disasterous situation …
sin ==> spiritual death ==> separation from God ==> spiritual blindness/deafness.
Because of his sin, man is hopelessly lost and helpless to save himself.
But, God devised a plan to save mankind … and this is the very beginning of God’s grace.
A sinless human, the Son of God Himself, would die in man’s place!
God declared that this would satisfy Him.
And this is the foundation of His “new covenant” … the other part is for man to believe it.
No more animals shedding their blood … the Son of God would shed HIS blood.
The Son of God Himself would serve as the final, ultimate, perfectly sinless sacrificial Lamb.
“The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (in general)!” (John 1:29).
The sinless One would take the place of all of the condemned sinners.
He would be our Substitute, thus opening the door to heaven
to everyone who can/will believe.

 

[Digger]

The sin nature teaching is pure heresy.

It was brought into Christian orthodoxy through the prolific influence of Augustine of Hippo.

The early church never taught such a thing and neither did the Jews.


By putting sin into the nature at birth redefines sin from being a choice to it being a disease. Thus under this philosophy people sin by necessity because of how they were born.

Thus sinners are redefined from rebellious criminals to diseased victims.

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are yet He never yielded to sin.

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

People yield to sin when they yield to the passions and desires of their flesh.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This is what Eve did in the garden.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

This is what Cain did.

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.



Those who are in Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires and are no longer drawn away by the lusts of the flesh because they walk after the Spirit.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.


This is why we are to die with Christ in the baptism of repentance where we crucify the old man and then God raises us up to newness of life having been set free from sin.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This is what Peter is writing about when he speaks of ceasing from sin because one is not yielding to the lusts of men.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.




The inborn sin nature teaching is the mother of all heresies in the church system and it totally redefines the Gospel.

Sin is a moral choice, not a substance.



Throw this deadly heresy away and the Bible will make a lot more sense.

 

[WIP]

Any time I feel the desire to ask myself a question that begins with, "How can God...?" I just remind myself that....well, he's God.

 

[Elijah674]

Any time I feel the desire to ask myself a question that begins with, "How can God...?" I just remind myself that....well, he's God.

'i' agree!
It just seems like as the End of time nears, that we find more & more things before our eyes to cast 'doubt'. 'How can God..?'

--Elijah

 

[D4Christ]

The sin nature teaching is pure heresy.

Are you saying that the sinful nature doesn't exist or it doesn't exist from birth?

 

[Digger]

Are you saying that the sinful nature doesn't exist or it doesn't exist from birth?

A sinful nature is acquired through the defilement wrought through the commission of iniquity. It is something that develops through a long practiced habit. This is why "by nature" people can do what is good and what is evil.

Doing evil by nature
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Doing good by nature
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:


Nature - Phusis - G5449
from phuo, "to bring forth, produce," signifies (a) "the nature" (i.e., the natural powers of constitution) of a person or thing, Eph. 2:3; Jas. 3:7 ("kind"); 2 Pet. 1:4; (b) "origin, birth," Rom. 2:27, one who by birth is a Gentile, uncircumcised, in contrast to one who, though circumcised, has become spiritually uncircumcised by his iniquity; Gal. 2:15; (c) "the regular law or order of nature," Rom. 1:26, against "nature" (para, "against"); Rom. 2:14, adverbially, "by nature" (for Rom. 11:21,24, see NATURAL, Note); 1 Cor. 11:14; Gal. 4:8, "by nature (are no gods)," here "nature" is the emphatic word, and the phrase includes demons, men regarded as deified, and idols; these are gods only in name (the negative, me, denies not simply that they were gods, but the possibility that they could be). [Vines]

Nature - Phusis - G5449
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]). [Strongs]




The heresy is not the sin nature in the sense I outlined above, the heresy is in the context of an inborn sin nature present at birth. It is a teaching which has its origin in platonic dualism where the flesh was perceived as evil and was distinct from the soul. The gnostics adopted this philosophy and thus taught that a soul could be pure while the flesh remained defiled and thus the deeds done in the body did not reflect the state of the soul.

John was refuting this philosophy in his first epistle. The gnostics claimed that Christ did not come in the flesh because flesh was "by nature" evil.

It was through the prolific writings or Augustine that this philosophy became firmly established in Christian orthodoxy in the 4th century and this error is the foundation for most of Christian theology today.

This doctrine completely redefines the Gospel message and it is the root error of the apostasy that we see today.

It is a very subtle and simple deception yet it is extremely dangerous to the souls of those who hold to it because it neutralises the Gospel message.

It is no exaggeration to say that modern Christianity is actually gnostic philosophy dressed up with Christian terminology.

 

[D4Christ]

A sinful nature is acquired through the defilement wrought through the commission of iniquity. It is something that develops through a long practiced habit. This is why "by nature" people can do what is good and what is evil.

I thought sin entered the world thru Adam and that all of us are guility of sin because it is impossible to follow the law of God.

Rom 5

12 When Adam sinned, sin entered the world. Adam’s sin brought death, so death spread to everyone, for everyone sinned. 13 Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

For Adam’s sin led to condemnation, but God’s free gift leads to our being made right with God, even though we are guilty of many sins. 17 For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God’s wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

20 God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In your opinion, how long does one have to sin before it is considered sin? I thought sin was breaking God's laws but I have never seen anything in scriptures that stated you have to break the law X amount of times before it is considered sin.

When you state that gentiles do things by nature what is contained in God's law, imho that is reiterating God's word which states that all of us know, without being told instinctively that God exists (Rom 1:18-20). So, when Rom 2:14 says,

14 Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it

...it bears to mind that whether you have heard the gospel or not or whether you have never read the bible, God makes gives us knowledge of his existence thru his creation and that when we violate his laws we are aware of being in opposition to the will of God.

The law, which is good, shows us how sinful we really are. Without Christ we are a slave to sin. Thru Christ we die to the power of the law and can be controlled by the Spirit and not our sinful nature.

I guess I am not sure how when you sin makes any difference. Obviously, I don't expect a baby to sin but by age 5 or younger, children already begin to lie and covet, demonstrating that our human nature cannot obey the law of God to the letter. And since the law is designed to show us our sinful nature, it is only our belief in Christ that gives us an opportunity to break the chains of the law and free us from the death that sin imposes.

Gal 3

22 But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[Digger]

Sin did enter the world through Adam and thus death by sin.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Augustine did not read Greek and thus read this verse in the Latin Vulgate which says "in whom all have sinned." Thus Augustine thought that all the souls of men were in Adam and thus all were likewise guilty.

It makes a lot more sense to me that Rom 5:12 is speaking of spiritual death which occurs when one rebels against God. Sin separates one from God.



You just have to sin once for this to happen. Sin is a choice. The sin nature which I alluded to is simply when a person becomes inclined to sin all the time, this is because they get used to it and their heart becomes hardened. The remaining light in them goes very dim because to sin one must suppress the light and that after all is the condemnation mentioned in John chapter 3.

I agree that God reveals Himself apart from the Bible. The scriptures state that light is given to all men (Joh 1:9), through the creation (Rom 1:19-20), and through God's grace (Tit 2:11) which is His divine influence on the heart which is pretty much the same as Joh1:9.

The problem with a sinful nature at birth is as I elaborated in my first post. It changes the whole gospel message and makes men victims instead of criminals. Thus the gospel message under original sin has people just confessing their sinful condition and there is no crucifixion of the flesh. A very big difference.

The Jews never taught a sinful nature nor did the early church. Anyone can look it up and read the early writings and see this is true.

Sinners sell themselves into sin through their own choice. They may not understand the full ramifications of sin but it is always a choice that is made.

Sin is simply when we yield to the passions and desires of our flesh in disobedience of doing what we know to be right. Sin is rooted in selfishness.

Jesus calls sinners to repent of this behaviour and turn to Him. It is through crucifying the flesh and then walking after the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that the bondage is broken. Thus there are only two states one can be in, walking according to the flesh or walking according to the Spirit.

This is not taught in any church that I have ever been in yet it is clearly what the Bible lays out.

 

[SMOOCH]

I already believed what you clarified but the way you broke it down really blew me
I bet you feel liberated by your new found understanding

 

[D4Christ]

You just have to sin once for this to happen. Sin is a choice. The sin nature which I alluded to is simply when a person becomes inclined to sin all the time, this is because they get used to it and their heart becomes hardened. ...

...The problem with a sinful nature at birth is as I elaborated in my first post. It changes the whole gospel message and makes men victims instead of criminals. Thus the gospel message under original sin has people just confessing their sinful condition and there is no crucifixion of the flesh. A very big difference.

...Sinners sell themselves into sin through their own choice. They may not understand the full ramifications of sin but it is always a choice that is made.

...Sin is simply when we yield to the passions and desires of our flesh in disobedience of doing what we know to be right. Sin is rooted in selfishness.

...Jesus calls sinners to repent of this behaviour and turn to Him. It is through crucifying the flesh and then walking after the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ that the bondage is broken. Thus there are only two states one can be in, walking according to the flesh or walking according to the Spirit.

This is not taught in any church that I have ever been in yet it is clearly what the Bible lays out.

I do see what your saying, I guess I never knew that some people felt like the church was teaching us to be victims of sin rather than active participants who made a choice to sin.

Even though I believe that the tendacy to sin is within us from the beginning, that sin is not actually "activated" until it comes into contact with the law. When in the face of the law, we choose to do the wrong thing, sin becomes apparent. The only way for someone to never sin is to live in a bubble and never come into contact with anyone anywhere.

That is why I understood the "sin nature" as something inherent in us all because at some point in time during our walk on earth we will choose to disobey God. It dosen't mean that we sin all the time...we do have choices to do the right thing....it just means that we are incapable of doing the right thing all the time, even if our hearts desire to do what is right. I understood scriptures to mean that the sin nature is something we fight against, not something that is developed after we continue to sin and harden our hearts.

All sin is disobeying God, but not all sin leads to death. Imho, the sin nature is not referring to a person who sins all the time, but the fact that at some point in our human walk we will sin. If this were not the case, then God, the Father, could have sent someone else to the cross instead of His Son who was sinless.

This tendency to want to sin (sin nature) is present in all of us. The choice to sin is made by the individual. As long as I am a slave to my flesh, which desires the things of the world rather than God, I will always fight against sinning. Belief in Christ allows me to be reconcilled to God and overcome sin. It gives me a way to confess my imperfections and live in the Spirit rather than be condemmed to death because I have broken a law. I have never believed that I was a victim of sin who was confessing to something I did not really do. I have always understood that repenting and turning from sin...nailing our desires to the cross and giving up fleshly desires was necessary for repentance.

Rom 7

7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.” 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law’s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God’s good commands for its own evil purposes.

 

[Stormcrow]

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Ephesians 2:3 (NASB)

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB)

Food for thought.

 

[Elijah674]

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Ephesians 2:3 (NASB)

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB)

Food for thought.

Yes, if one is 'IN CHRIST he has NO CONDEMNATION'! And when one sins & becomes convicted of it by the Holy Spirits Leading?? Rom. 8:14 finds one right back UNDER CONDEMNATION! (me you or any other posting 'person'.)
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And that is still the New Covenant CONDITION!

And when one presumptously knowingly continues on doing so? Psalms 19:13 finds them on the pathway towards the GREAT SIN! (their heart becomes more & more hardened to the Holy Spirits STRIVING to the point of NO return)

--Elijah

 

[Digger]

Even though I believe that the tendacy to sin is within us from the beginning, that sin is not actually "activated" until it comes into contact with the law. When in the face of the law, we choose to do the wrong thing, sin becomes apparent.

The tendency to sin is simply the natural passions and desires of the flesh. Those passions and desires are just natural desires and nothing more.

Sin is when we yield to those desires in disobedience to God and that is your "activation."

James explained it quite well when he wrote this...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This was present BEFORE Eve sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The sin of Adam did not change the constitution of man as original sin teaches. It changed man's environment.

We are all born in a neutral condition subject to the passions and desires of the flesh. Sin is a choice and is only evident when we have the power of reason and we willfully choose to do wrong when we know to do right (Jam 4:17).

The only way for someone to never sin is to live in a bubble and never come into contact with anyone anywhere.

Technically if someone simply "chose" not to sin then they never would. The problem is that practically this is highly unlikely or next to impossible. Firstly when we first sin we do not have an understanding of the full consequences of what we are doing and thus sin is treated as a light matter. So even if we were living in a bubble, without a full understanding of the ramifications of sin I don't see why a person would resist.

That is why I understood the "sin nature" as something inherent in us all because at some point in time during our walk on earth we will choose to disobey God. It dosen't mean that we sin all the time...we do have choices to do the right thing....it just means that we are incapable of doing the right thing all the time, even if our hearts desire to do what is right.

I would really consider carefully those words because what you are saying is that sin is not a choice. If sin is not a choice and is necessitated by how we are made then that puts the blame of it on God. God's character is maligned for punishing souls for a disease that was no fault for their own.

Sin is always a choice.

I understood scriptures to mean that the sin nature is something we fight against, not something that is developed after we continue to sin and harden our hearts.

What we fight against is the passions and desires of the flesh. Those that are in Christ crucify these passions and desires in repentance and thus refuse to yield to them anymore.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We have to believe it and live it.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

It is this new life of the Spirit in Jesus Christ which sets us free.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

All sin is disobeying God, but not all sin leads to death. Imho, the sin nature is not referring to a person who sins all the time, but the fact that at some point in our human walk we will sin. If this were not the case, then God, the Father, could have sent someone else to the cross instead of His Son who was sinless.

Sin is always a choice. By believing it is inevitable one sets themselves up for defeat.

The Bible clearly says that if we suffer with Christ then we cease from sin because we are no longer living according to the lusts of the flesh.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

A Christian is to keep themselves by not yielding to sin.

1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

This is done through the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

This is how a Christian is to live.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

It is for the above reason that the way is narrow and few find it. Very few people want to actually do this because it is expensive. They have to forsake the things of the world.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.


Regarding Romans 7.

The man described in Romans 7 is carnal and sold under sin and needs deliverance.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Romans 7 is not the Christian walk. Romans 8 is the Christian walk and Romans 6 is how to get there. Read Romans 6, 7 and 8 very carefully.

The church system does not teach them correctly because the theology is founded upon inborn sin being true. Thus Romans 6 is taught as "positional" and Romans 8 is taught as a "future goal."

Salvation in the church system is taught as an abstract concept as opposed to an actual present reality.

The church system teaches a form of gnostic philosophy in that they separate the deeds of the body from the state of the soul. The Bible clearly teaches that the deeds of the body are a reflection of the state of your soul.

A person who is sinning is still in bondage to sin and they need to be delivered. Satan wants people to believe that they can be living in sin and yet be saved thus neutralising any possibility for them to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Many are under this delusion and many are going to be shocked on judgment day when they find out they are rejected.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Don't be one of them. Take Jesus Christ very seriously.

 

[Digger]

Yes, if one is 'IN CHRIST he has NO CONDEMNATION'! And when one sins & becomes convicted of it by the Holy Spirits Leading?? Rom. 8:14 finds one right back UNDER CONDEMNATION! (me you or any other posting 'person'.)
[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And that is still the New Covenant CONDITION!

And when one presumptously knowingly continues on doing so? Psalms 19:13 finds them on the pathway towards the GREAT SIN! (their heart becomes more & more hardened to the Holy Spirits STRIVING to the point of NO return)

--Elijah

There are two states one can be in. One is either walking after the flesh or they are walking after the Spirit. There is no grey area.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ indeed. Those that are in Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The moment they yield to those passions and desires is the moment they are not walking with Christ.

Salvation is not a ticket or some abstract concept, it is an present living reality for the believer.

One is either walking with God or they are not. That is why we have to endure to the end keeping out body in subjection against the wiles of the devil lest we stumble and fall.

Adam and Eve only ate a piece of fruit and they died. It is no different today, to willfully and knowingly act in rebellion to God cuts you off from God.

The only way back is through a genuine repentance where that rebellion is completely forsaken. A heart that produces rebellion is not pure and will not see God.

 

[John Zain]

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh
and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. Ephesians 2:3 (NASB)

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away;
behold, new things have come. 2 Corinthians 5:17 (NASB)

Food for thought.

Yes, Digger and others should be gorging themselves on verses such as these.
But, why is it that these people never say, "I don't believe those verses."?
Ditto for the 70+ verses which reveal that Jesus is God, equal to the Father, etc.

Stay hungry, my friends.

 

[DPMartin]

There are two states one can be in. One is either walking after the flesh or they are walking after the Spirit. There is no grey area.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ indeed. Those that are in Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The moment they yield to those passions and desires is the moment they are not walking with Christ.

Salvation is not a ticket or some abstract concept, it is an present living reality for the believer.

One is either walking with God or they are not. That is why we have to endure to the end keeping out body in subjection against the wiles of the devil lest we stumble and fall.

Adam and Eve only ate a piece of fruit and they died. It is no different today, to willfully and knowingly act in rebellion to God cuts you off from God.

The only way back is through a genuine repentance where that rebellion is completely forsaken. A heart that produces rebellion is not pure and will not see God.

Ok then why is it that God (Creator and Judge) who is Righteous requires the innocent One to die for the guilty? If Jesus didn’t lay down His Life on the Cross would His flesh still be alive today?
　
What you are saying is the flesh doesn’t inherit that which it is of. If that were so no one’s flesh would die unless they have sinned, but yet a child that hasn’t even had the chance to sin, dies.
　
Why do you think it is necessary for men to be born of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t it because that which something is born of, inherits that which it is of?

 

[farouk]

God wasn't obliged to send His Son to die at the Cross instead of sinners, so that they could be saved.

He could have left sinners to their own devices. He could have left us to judgment, and he would still be holy and righteous.

But in His mercy and grace He did indeed 'send the Son to be the Savior of the world'.

John 3.16 is a great verse.

 

[Digger]

Ok then why is it that God (Creator and Judge) who is Righteous requires the innocent One to die for the guilty? If Jesus didn’t lay down His Life on the Cross would His flesh still be alive today?
　
What you are saying is the flesh doesn’t inherit that which it is of. If that were so no one’s flesh would die unless they have sinned, but yet a child that hasn’t even had the chance to sin, dies.
　
Why do you think it is necessary for men to be born of the Holy Spirit? Isn’t it because that which something is born of, inherits that which it is of?

Men were created mortal. Physical death is a result of being denied access to the tree of life.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.


We must be born again because that is how one walks with God. There are two states, one is either walking in the flesh or they are walking in the Spirit.

In order to walk in the Spirit one must forsake the life of the flesh and completely yield to God. God then opens the eyes and one goes from darkness to light.

Jesus died on the cross for three reasons as far as I can tell. One was as a propitiatory sacrifice so that our past sins can be forgiven (Rom 3:25), secondly to purchase us from bondage of sin by His blood, and thirdly so that we have a physical example to relate to. By that I mean that we die with Him and are raised up by the same power that raised Him up (Rom 6:4-7).

Reasons 1 and 2 could probably be likened to the same thing.

 

[Digger]

God wasn't obliged to send His Son to die at the Cross instead of sinners, so that they could be saved.

He could have left sinners to their own devices. He could have left us to judgment, and he would still be holy and righteous.

But in His mercy and grace He did indeed 'send the Son to be the Savior of the world'.

John 3.16 is a great verse.

Yes that is right. We would have no hope if God did not do that.

Even if we had returned to obedience it would never undo the condemnation due to our past transgression.

Praise God for taking the initiative.