coelacanth
Member
Do you believe there is any physical/material existence that makes up the soul?
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The Soul
- Thread starter coelacanth
- Start date
Drew
Member
It is my understanding that the Hebrew culture did not embrace the concept of the "soul" as a "thing". And more spcecifically, I do not believe that the soul was conceived to be any kind of "immaterial" consciousness-bearing entity that can survive the death of the body.
That is a Greek idea, not a Hebrew one. And most westerners are living in the legacy of the Greeks. So, we impose our Greek worldview onto words like "soul" that meant something entirely different to the Hebrew culture.
The key thing is to realize that, for the Hebrew, the soul is not a thing, it is a way of describing the totality of the human person, or at least "aspects" of that totality. Thus, in Genesis, we have God breathing into the man and he becomes a living soul. Clearly, the word "soul" here refers to the totality of the human person, not some immaterial consciousness-bearing entity that somehow "inhabits" the body.
A rough analogy: To ask a Hebrew whether "there is any physical/material existence that makes up the soul" is liking asking a 21st westerner whether "there is any physical/material existence that makes up the personality"
You would object that the personality is not a "thing". Well, there you go. The Hebrew will say the same thing about the "soul".
We need to read the scriptures with proper knowledge of the cultural matrix from which they spring.
That is a Greek idea, not a Hebrew one. And most westerners are living in the legacy of the Greeks. So, we impose our Greek worldview onto words like "soul" that meant something entirely different to the Hebrew culture.
The key thing is to realize that, for the Hebrew, the soul is not a thing, it is a way of describing the totality of the human person, or at least "aspects" of that totality. Thus, in Genesis, we have God breathing into the man and he becomes a living soul. Clearly, the word "soul" here refers to the totality of the human person, not some immaterial consciousness-bearing entity that somehow "inhabits" the body.
A rough analogy: To ask a Hebrew whether "there is any physical/material existence that makes up the soul" is liking asking a 21st westerner whether "there is any physical/material existence that makes up the personality"
You would object that the personality is not a "thing". Well, there you go. The Hebrew will say the same thing about the "soul".
We need to read the scriptures with proper knowledge of the cultural matrix from which they spring.
coelacanth
Member
Agreed, sir. But the survival of some aspect of the person post mortem is crucial to the majority of Christians. Yet, if it is entirely immaterial, then by what mechanism could it possibly interact with the physical/material world?
Drew
Member
Are you really asking about how we Christians make sense of how an immaterial entity animates or interacts with the physicality of the human person - how something "immaterial" can send commands to nerve fibers to move a hand, etc.?coelacanth said:
Well, I think that is an excellent question. And I believe that the mainstream Christian position on this is incorrect - that the human person is constituted by a consciousness-bearing immateial soul that "instructs" the body to do certain things. One of the reasons this view cannot work is precisely the point you raise - one cannot give a sensible account of how an immaterial "soul" can "press physical buttons", as it were.
I think my position on this is best explained by appeal to the hardware - software model. Software is not really an "immaterial" thing - it is "information" that only affects or influences the world when it is embodied. Perhaps we humans are like computers in this respect. As we live our lives, our "software" controls the actions of our bodies. When we die, God "uploads" our software until the time when he gives us new bodies and then "downloads" that software back into us.
You would be correct to infer that I believe that the future life of the Christian is indeed an embodied one - no floating around on clouds. That is, indeed, what I believe the Scriptures support.
coelacanth
Member
An interesting perspective, thank you. I was not trying to ask leading questions, but wanted to phrase it simplistically in order to also get across a central point by cutting to the core with my phrasing as well. I was not necessarily looking for an explanation of how the mechanism works ;) , although I have heard them proposed before. I have not heard your precise answer before from anyone else.
coelacanth
Member
I have another question, though, of the same ilk. Whence does genuine free will arise from the material?
Drew
Member
This is, of course, a question that has perplexed humankind for years. I would certainly agree that the "standard" set of models which collectively constitute the scientific description of reality do not accomodate free will.coelacanth said:
This, of course, does not mean that free will does not exist. The possibilty remains open that our models are incorrect and that free will is indeed "real". This is what I believe to the be the case.
Not only is it a challenge to fit free will into our scientific descriptions, it is difficult to even think about it. This is because we invariably think in terms of cause and effect. And if some act "X" is truly free, it cannot be fully caused by other acts.
Cause and effect will continue to follow us into eternity. Just look at the angels who rebelled against God who will be cast out of heaven described in the Book of Revelation. The cause was there rebellion against God and the effect was they being thrown out of Heaven. The sinful angels who took human women as a wife. And then were cast into dark donjons to be kept for the day of judgment.
Every thing has a cause and effect. You must reap what you sow.
Every thing has a cause and effect. You must reap what you sow.
The scriptures defines SOUL as a physical body in these verses....coelacanth said:
Gen 46:26-27
26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;
27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten. KJV
First, define 'Genuine free will'. We live in a world where so much is 'fake' that is considered to be the 'genuine' ...the 'real thing'. If there is 'genuine free will' then there is also 'fake free will' because the Devil replicates and copies everything genuine...No?coelacanth said:
coelacanth
Member
Ret said:
I was speaking of free will as this
thefreedictionary.com)I said "geniune free will" to distinguish from "apparent" or "illusory" free will: a case in which it would seem to us and feel to us as if we have free will, but in fact we do not. I wanted to include this distinction, given the soul's material existence, that somehow "free will" must not then be constrained by unavoidable physical/biochemical chain reactions that result in the causation of our actions and thoughts, even if such chain reactions are completely unpredictable. Would free will would be illusory if the material substance making up the soul were entirely subject to the same natural laws governing everything else? Could it be an aggregate emergent property of neurological structure as is often hypothesized for "consciousness"?
If you knew the position and velocity of every particle of matter and bit of energy in the universe, and knowledge of all the laws of physics, chemistry, etc., could future human actions be predicted infallibly? Why or why not? As far as we know, it seems impossible to precisely know both the position and velocity of subatomic particles (Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle), but we're speaking hypothetically here - about beliefs that various people hold, so I was hoping the premise could be granted that we could know both simultaneously.
I don't believe in the Devil, but if you find it relevant, please expand.
coe, thanks for clarifying. My thoughts and understanding in this area are based on how the Bible relates to these things, and the relationship of spiritual things to natural - earthly things, which we call 'science'.coelacanth said:I was speaking of free will as this
I don't believe in the Devil, but if you find it relevant, please expand.
I believe, according to scripture that the Devil influences all we do. With that, seems good to leave it there for now.
Peace...Ret
coelacanth
Member
Drew said:
Drew, you have caught my interest with your answers, and I saw that you are interested in artificial intelligence. Are you familiar with the projects of Hod Lipson?
sheshisown
Member
:waving Hello Drew~
If it is true that the "soul" (which I would refer to as the spirit
) is neither immaterial, nor a conscious-bearing entity, and it cannot survive the death of the body as you purport.
Then your faith is little better than that of a Sadducee who had no more than a physical understanding of these things and chose not to believe as the Pharisees did~~~ that there was a resurrection once we die. Do you also say there is no resurrection? Both these Jewish sects were very prominent in Jesus day, when he came preaching the literal resurrection and raised is own body from the dead to prove it, after He died for the sin of the world. :yes
Drew ~ Why would you base your faith on the Old Testament Hebrew culture rather than the New Testament revelation written in Greek?
GOD, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[fn1] purged our[fn2] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.Hebrews 1:1-3
The revelation given through the prophets was brought in various ways ~ sometimes through parables, historical narrative, prophetic confrontation, dramatic presentation, psalms, proverbs, etcetera. God spoke to Moses by a burning bush (Exodus 2), to Elijah by a still, small voice (1 Kings 19), to Isaiah by a heavenly vision (Isaiah 6), to Hosea by his unfaithful wife (Hosea 1:2) and to Amos by a basket of fruit (Amos 8:1).
God spoke in a spectrum in the Old Testament; Jesus is like the prism which collects all those bands of light and focuses them into one pure beam. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God, not the Hebrew language, nor the limited understanding of the Hebrew culture.
The entire New Testament is written in Greek. I doubt that you would call the entire New Testiment into question because it is not written in the original Hebrew... For anyone who has read both the Old and New Testaments it is obvious that the full revelation of Jesus Christ and the gospel, and of course the eternal matters along with the soul... are best revealed using ALL the word ~ but never disannuling part of the Bible by any other part. :crazy
The Bible is a complete testimony of God to us as Christians, we must never exalt one portion over another. :bigfrown
Seeking the whole revelation of Christ... bonnie
If it is true that the "soul" (which I would refer to as the spirit
) is neither immaterial, nor a conscious-bearing entity, and it cannot survive the death of the body as you purport. Then your faith is little better than that of a Sadducee who had no more than a physical understanding of these things and chose not to believe as the Pharisees did~~~ that there was a resurrection once we die. Do you also say there is no resurrection? Both these Jewish sects were very prominent in Jesus day, when he came preaching the literal resurrection and raised is own body from the dead to prove it, after He died for the sin of the world. :yes
Drew ~ Why would you base your faith on the Old Testament Hebrew culture rather than the New Testament revelation written in Greek?
GOD, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself[fn1] purged our[fn2] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.Hebrews 1:1-3
The revelation given through the prophets was brought in various ways ~ sometimes through parables, historical narrative, prophetic confrontation, dramatic presentation, psalms, proverbs, etcetera. God spoke to Moses by a burning bush (Exodus 2), to Elijah by a still, small voice (1 Kings 19), to Isaiah by a heavenly vision (Isaiah 6), to Hosea by his unfaithful wife (Hosea 1:2) and to Amos by a basket of fruit (Amos 8:1).
God spoke in a spectrum in the Old Testament; Jesus is like the prism which collects all those bands of light and focuses them into one pure beam. Jesus is the fullest revelation of God, not the Hebrew language, nor the limited understanding of the Hebrew culture.
The entire New Testament is written in Greek. I doubt that you would call the entire New Testiment into question because it is not written in the original Hebrew... For anyone who has read both the Old and New Testaments it is obvious that the full revelation of Jesus Christ and the gospel, and of course the eternal matters along with the soul... are best revealed using ALL the word ~ but never disannuling part of the Bible by any other part. :crazy
The Bible is a complete testimony of God to us as Christians, we must never exalt one portion over another. :bigfrown
Seeking the whole revelation of Christ... bonnie
Many have the view that the soul is immortal and separate from the body. However, the Bible provides a different understanding. Here are some Scriptures to help one to see what really the soul is. Of the soul, the Bible says that it can be "cut off" or put to death, at Leviticus 7:20, saying: "But the soul that eateth of the flesh of the sacrifice of peace offerings, that pertain unto the Lord, having his uncleanness upon him, even that soul shall be cut off from his people."(King James Bible)
That it can eat, for verse 25 says that "For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people", that the soul can "be afflicted" at Leviticus 16:29, that God condemns it for "eating blood" at Leviticus 17:10 and 12, that the soul can touch something "unclean" and be "unclean" itself, at Leviticus 22:6, that it can be purchased, at Leviticus 22:11, that it works and can be destroyed (therefore not immortal), at Leviticus 23:30, that it can " pine away" at Leviticus 26:16, that animals are souls at Numbers 31:28, that it has a desire to eat at Deuteronomy 12:15 and 20, that the soul can crave for "oxen...sheep...wine" at Deuteronomy 14:26, that Joshua destroyed all the souls of Makkedah at Joshua 10:28, that it has blood at Jeremiah 2:34 and that it is not immortal, for Peter said: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:23 King James Bible)
Hence, just what is the soul ? What is it that eats, that can touch something, that can be "afflicted", that can be "destroyed" ? The soul is us as a person, with all our feelings and desires, with blood flowing through our veins. Hence, at Genesis 2:7, of Adam the Scripture says that "the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (King James Bible)
The apostle Paul reiterated this at 1 Corinthians 15:45, saying that "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."(King James Bible) Therefore, God did not place a soul in Adam, but rather, he "became a living soul". Before God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", Adam was a dead soul.
At Ezekiel 18:4, it says that the "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Thus, we as souls, sin, and eventually die.
The Hebrew word for soul is ne´phesh and evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe†and in a literal sense ne´phesh could be rendered as “a breather.â€Â
The word soul can also be rendered as a person's life, for Jesus said that " And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matt 10:28 King James Bible) Thus, one's future life or "soul" is dependent upon not fearing those who can "kill the body" or present life but rather fearing God. And the soul can be destroyed, for we, as a person, can die and never live again, being placed in Gehenna, where those who go there will not be resurrected from the dead.(Matt 10:28, in which Jesus used the word Gehenna but is rendered in the King James Bible as hell )
That it can eat, for verse 25 says that "For whosoever eateth the fat of the beast, of which men offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, even the soul that eateth it shall be cut off from his people", that the soul can "be afflicted" at Leviticus 16:29, that God condemns it for "eating blood" at Leviticus 17:10 and 12, that the soul can touch something "unclean" and be "unclean" itself, at Leviticus 22:6, that it can be purchased, at Leviticus 22:11, that it works and can be destroyed (therefore not immortal), at Leviticus 23:30, that it can " pine away" at Leviticus 26:16, that animals are souls at Numbers 31:28, that it has a desire to eat at Deuteronomy 12:15 and 20, that the soul can crave for "oxen...sheep...wine" at Deuteronomy 14:26, that Joshua destroyed all the souls of Makkedah at Joshua 10:28, that it has blood at Jeremiah 2:34 and that it is not immortal, for Peter said: "And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:23 King James Bible)
Hence, just what is the soul ? What is it that eats, that can touch something, that can be "afflicted", that can be "destroyed" ? The soul is us as a person, with all our feelings and desires, with blood flowing through our veins. Hence, at Genesis 2:7, of Adam the Scripture says that "the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (King James Bible)
The apostle Paul reiterated this at 1 Corinthians 15:45, saying that "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."(King James Bible) Therefore, God did not place a soul in Adam, but rather, he "became a living soul". Before God "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", Adam was a dead soul.
At Ezekiel 18:4, it says that the "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Thus, we as souls, sin, and eventually die.
The Hebrew word for soul is ne´phesh and evidently comes from a root meaning “breathe†and in a literal sense ne´phesh could be rendered as “a breather.â€Â
The word soul can also be rendered as a person's life, for Jesus said that " And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."(Matt 10:28 King James Bible) Thus, one's future life or "soul" is dependent upon not fearing those who can "kill the body" or present life but rather fearing God. And the soul can be destroyed, for we, as a person, can die and never live again, being placed in Gehenna, where those who go there will not be resurrected from the dead.(Matt 10:28, in which Jesus used the word Gehenna but is rendered in the King James Bible as hell )
P
Paidion
Guest
THE BIBLICAL MEANING OF “SOULâ€Â
New Testament
LIFE
Mark 8:35
For whoever would save his soul will lose it; and whoever loses his soul for my sake and the gospel’s will save it.
BEING
Matt 20:27,28
and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his soul as a means of liberation in place of many.
SELF
Matt 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your soul, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not the soul more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’
Matt 12:18
(Quoting Isaiah)
"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles."
Matt 26:38
Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."
Luke 14:26
"If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.
Person
Quoting Moses:
Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.
Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Old Testament
Being
Gen 2:7
then the Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Life
Gen 1:20
...swarms of creatures that have soul.
Leviticus 17:11 ‘For the soul of the flesh is in the blood …
Self
Genesis 27:4 and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."
Leviticus 19:28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the soul, or tattoo any marks upon you: I am Yahweh.
Person
Leviticus 21:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: No one shall defile himself for a dead soul among his relatives.
New Testament
LIFE
Mark 8:35
For whoever would save his soul will lose it; and whoever loses his soul for my sake and the gospel’s will save it.
BEING
Matt 20:27,28
and whoever would be first among you must be your slave; even as the Son of man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his soul as a means of liberation in place of many.
SELF
Matt 6:25
"Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your soul, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not the soul more than food, and the body more than clothing?
Luke 12:19
And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods laid up for many years; take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.’
Matt 12:18
(Quoting Isaiah)
"Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles."
Matt 26:38
Then he said to them, "My soul is very sorrowful, even to death; remain here, and watch with me."
Luke 14:26
"If any one comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own soul, he cannot be my disciple.
Person
Quoting Moses:
Acts 3:23
And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people.
Acts 2:41
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
Old Testament
Being
Gen 2:7
then the Yahweh God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Life
Gen 1:20
...swarms of creatures that have soul.
Leviticus 17:11 ‘For the soul of the flesh is in the blood …
Self
Genesis 27:4 and prepare a savory dish for me such as I love, and bring it to me that I may eat, so that my soul may bless you before I die."
Leviticus 19:28 You shall not make any gashes in your flesh for the soul, or tattoo any marks upon you: I am Yahweh.
Person
Leviticus 21:1 Yahweh said to Moses: Speak to the priests, the sons of Aaron, and say to them: No one shall defile himself for a dead soul among his relatives.
God knows us completely, so maybe the soul is God's knowledge of us. God will remember the righteous and, through remembrance, they shall be reborn into everlasting life. The wicked shall be judged and forgotten, they will die and it will be as if they never existed once God has forsaken them.
Ezekiel 18:21-24
Ezekiel 18:21-24
The soul is our mind, our intellect and our carnal reason, notice the Bible speaks of our soul needs to be saved; but nothing about our spirit, for it returns to God. Our spirit is the same essence as God’s spirit “existing materialsâ€Â, it was created in the image of God; our spirit will return to God.
Our spirit was created on the sixth day when we were made in God’s image and likeness; GOD IS A SPIRIT. On the seventh day God formed man from the dust of the earth; he lowered man from being created in God’s image to a dust man, a soul man as I will put it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
Psalm 69:1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
Psalm 86:2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
Psalm 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Our spirit was created on the sixth day when we were made in God’s image and likeness; GOD IS A SPIRIT. On the seventh day God formed man from the dust of the earth; he lowered man from being created in God’s image to a dust man, a soul man as I will put it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
Psalm 69:1 Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
Psalm 86:2 Preserve my soul; for I am holy: O thou my God, save thy servant that trusteth in thee.
Psalm 109:31 For he shall stand at the right hand of the poor, to save him from those that condemn his soul.
Ezekiel 18:27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
John 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.