The Strange History of Pentecostalism

[Dave Slayer]

Part One: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange1.htm

Part Two: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange2.htm

Part Three: http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange3.htm

 

[FightingAtheism]

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
(Jud.1:10)

Perhaps you would fear the word of God.

 

[XTruth]

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
(Jud.1:10)

Perhaps you would fear the word of God.

Jude 10-13 is about the characteristics of apostates, which he (Dave Slayer) doesn't appear to be. Jude himself was contending for the faith by warning the church of deceptions (Jude 3), which is what Dave is trying to do, so tell how the OP is incorrect if you believe so. I haven't expressed a view on whether i believe the OP or not, just trying to make sure verses make sense when they're used to hold a position. nOT TRYING TO STEP ON TOES, it's just that Jude 10 was used way out of context.

 

[Imagican]

In the 1870s there were Christians known as Gift People or Gift Adventists numbering in the thousands who were known for spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues.[22] One preacher from the Gift People influenced A.J. Tomlinson, who would later lead the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee).[citation needed] Though some[who?] have considered the 1896 Shearer Schoolhouse Revival in Cherokee County, North Carolina as the beginning of the modern Pentecostal Movement, the remoteness of the region very likely kept it as a localized event and thereby limited any possibility it may have had to impact the movement that came out of the later Azusa Street Revival.

This information is from WIkkipedia. But it closely matches information that I have gathered through independant study over the years. That this movement can be traced by ONLY a little over a hundred years. All one need do 'now days' is google 'Pentacostalism', or 'Church of God' etc........ I learned about these through literal literary means years ago.

But anyone truly interested in the origins of these 'gift' churches SHOULD do the research BEFORE they become DEVOTED to a 'group' of PEOPLE.

The funny things is: If these that believe are following what is offered in scripture, what happened to 'tongues' for the previous SIXTEEN or SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[kingdavid]

In the 1870s there were Christians known as Gift People or Gift Adventists numbering in the thousands who were known for spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues.[22] One preacher from the Gift People influenced A.J. Tomlinson, who would later lead the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee).[citation needed] Though some[who?] have considered the 1896 Shearer Schoolhouse Revival in Cherokee County, North Carolina as the beginning of the modern Pentecostal Movement, the remoteness of the region very likely kept it as a localized event and thereby limited any possibility it may have had to impact the movement that came out of the later Azusa Street Revival.

This information is from WIkkipedia. But it closely matches information that I have gathered through independant study over the years. That this movement can be traced by ONLY a little over a hundred years. All one need do 'now days' is google 'Pentacostalism', or 'Church of God' etc........ I learned about these through literal literary means years ago.

But anyone truly interested in the origins of these 'gift' churches SHOULD do the research BEFORE they become DEVOTED to a 'group' of PEOPLE.

The funny things is: If these that believe are following what is offered in scripture, what happened to 'tongues' for the previous SIXTEEN or SEVENTEEN HUNDRED YEARS?

Blessings,

MEC

the scriptures give greater support of future events, not just what was taking place at that time. even the apostles who had the baptism of the holy spirit and all the gifts still proclaimed of a future undetermined time period when the holy ghost would come in his fullness and would manifest himself with such clarity but yet be rejected and blasphemed by the multitudes who claim to be christians because they had been deluted by false prophets and teachers. even though there is false doesn't mean there isn't true prophets and teachers. you can't have a counterfiet without an original somewhere.

only a few would recognize the holy ghost manifestation when He comes. This would be the the consummation of the marriage the true church was waiting for or the receiving of His seed

the modern pentacostal movement began in 1906 on azusa street in califonia when the holy ghost fell upon a black man and i don't recall his name at the moment.

 

[Guest]

the modern pentacostal movement began in 1906 on azusa street in califonia when the holy ghost fell upon a black man and i don't recall his name at the moment.

Charles Parham started a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas. As the story goes, he left a challenge with his students to explore the Scriptures with regarding to speaking in tongues while he was away. The students conclude the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was evidenced by speaking in other tongues. The students decided to pray to receive the baptism, and it was Agnes Ozman, a woman, who reportedly first spoke with other tongues. (I believe it was reported that she spoke Chinese.)

When Parham returned, he learned what the students had discovered and began sharing the teaching with others. Parham was teaching a class in Houston, Texas when William Seymore was interested in sitting in on the class. Parham, an avowed racist, refused to let Seymore sit in the class, but eventually allowed him to sit outside and listen through an open window. Seymore then went to Los Angeles, and that's where the Azusa Street Revival sparked the modern Pentecostal movement.

This is mostly from memory. I did a couple of research projects about 8-9 years ago on the early history of the modern movement. So, my memory might be a little rusty.

 

[Imagican]

kingdavid,

When we consider ALL that is offered in scripture concerning 'tongues', it becomes apparent that they were FOR A TIME and FOR A PURPOSE. Yet what we witness in this 'modern day tongues' is CONTRARY to the totality of information that we have been offered.

Paul set down the 'rules of tongues'. He NEVER said that they DID NOT EXIST, he even admitted to speaking tongues MORE than MOST. But he gave us the 'guidelines' to discern what ARE true tongues and what are NOT. I have YET to witness ANY tongues that FOLLOW the guidelines.

Women are NOT to speak tongues in the church. One, two or THREE at MOST and by course, which means IN ORDER. and there MUST be an interpreter.

Tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT.

And to sum up all that he had offered he went so far as to STATE that HE had rather speak FIVE words with understanding than 10,000 words in an 'unknown tongue'. This PLAINLY places 'tongues' in their PROPER perspective.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[kingdavid]

the modern pentacostal movement began in 1906 on azusa street in califonia when the holy ghost fell upon a black man and i don't recall his name at the moment.

Charles Parham started a Bible school in Topeka, Kansas. As the story goes, he left a challenge with his students to explore the Scriptures with regarding to speaking in tongues while he was away. The students conclude the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was evidenced by speaking in other tongues. The students decided to pray to receive the baptism, and it was Agnes Ozman, a woman, who reportedly first spoke with other tongues. (I believe it was reported that she spoke Chinese.)

When Parham returned, he learned what the students had discovered and began sharing the teaching with others. Parham was teaching a class in Houston, Texas when William Seymore was interested in sitting in on the class. Parham, an avowed racist, refused to let Seymore sit in the class, but eventually allowed him to sit outside and listen through an open window. Seymore then went to Los Angeles, and that's where the Azusa Street Revival sparked the modern Pentecostal movement.

This is mostly from memory. I did a couple of research projects about 8-9 years ago on the early history of the modern movement. So, my memory might be a little rusty.

ok...thanks for the info.

 

[kingdavid]

kingdavid,

When we consider ALL that is offered in scripture concerning 'tongues', it becomes apparent that they were FOR A TIME and FOR A PURPOSE. Yet what we witness in this 'modern day tongues' is CONTRARY to the totality of information that we have been offered.

Paul set down the 'rules of tongues'. He NEVER said that they DID NOT EXIST, he even admitted to speaking tongues MORE than MOST. But he gave us the 'guidelines' to discern what ARE true tongues and what are NOT. I have YET to witness ANY tongues that FOLLOW the guidelines.

Women are NOT to speak tongues in the church. One, two or THREE at MOST and by course, which means IN ORDER. and there MUST be an interpreter.

Tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT.

And to sum up all that he had offered he went so far as to STATE that HE had rather speak FIVE words with understanding than 10,000 words in an 'unknown tongue'. This PLAINLY places 'tongues' in their PROPER perspective.

Blessings,

MEC

i agree with you that there is a lot of misuse of the gift of tongues but as you stated there is a proper order or conduct one might say in which to use this gift. the misuse of tongues does not nullify the genuine use of it. as long as there are true believers in this world, then there will be all the true signsfollowing them. however, we definitely know alot of counterfeit exists too

 

[Pogo]

Imagican,

Execellent post...I totally agree!

Also, let me add that, IF THESE GIFTS ARE STILL VALID AND APPLICABLE TO US TODAY, as I interpret the scriptures, each congregation of believers in Christ should be comprised of a mixture of those who each have different gifts.

Healing, interpreting, speaking in tongues, prophesying, serpent handling, poison drinking, etc., should be found in each and every congregation!

All healers should not start a denomination of their own!

Nor, interpreters!

Nor, prophets!

Nor, those who speak in tongues, etc.!

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[kingdavid]

Imagican,

Execellent post...I totally agree!

Also, let me add that, IF THESE GIFTS ARE STILL VALID AND APPLICABLE TO US TODAY, as I interpret the scriptures, each congregation of believers in Christ should be comprised of a mixture of those who each have different gifts.

Healing, interpreting, speaking in tongues, prophesying, serpent handling, poison drinking, etc., should be found in each and every congregation!

All healers should not start a denomination of their own!

Nor, interpreters!

Nor, prophets!

Nor, those who speak in tongues, etc.!

In Christ,

Pogo

serpent handling and poison drinking was not a gift. it is merely testifying that saying those circumstances arise that it will not harm the true believer. the believer doesn't go handling and drinking poison to prove anything.

 

[kton16]

The book of Corithians was for a church that didn't know how to use their spiritual gifts the right way. There's a differnce between speaking in tongues and praying in tongues. Speaking in tongues is a gift and praying in tongues is a gift that comes with the holy spirit. (EX: Day of 1.Penetecost 2.The Samaritans 3.Cornelius and his Household 4.The Ephesians Believers)


If you study Corthinians he encoruage praying in tongues but Speaking in tongues people must be kept quiet. Speaking in tongues is where God speaks through someone using their (praying in tongue.) The interpeter needs to be present at that time and needs to tell the chruch what is going on. Therefore it can't be explained what the "Speaker in Tongues" is saying.

Woman are to keep quiet when "OTHER" people spoke tongues (not praying in tongues). Then they wouldn't be able to hear what God is saying to them. One, two or three people that spoke in tongues had to be done Orderly. Those are the people that have the gift of "Speaking in Tongues". Notice at the day of Penetcost they prayed in tongues and the holy spirit wasn't within them to recieve "Spiriutally gifts". They wasn't looking for any "spiritually gifts". God said he was going send down the comforter and praying in tongues came with it. The verse never said SPIRITUAL GIFT. They said the GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. So lets you know there's a difference in praying in tongues and speaking in tongues.

Trust me, Its a beautiful sight to see. You feel in the atmosphere moving. A real cool experince.

 

[Pogo]

kingdavid -

You posted...
serpent handling and poison drinking was not a gift. it is merely testifying that saying those circumstances arise that it will not harm the true believer. the believer doesn't go handling and drinking poison to prove anything.

Please notice below that handling serpents and drinking deadly things is included along with casting out devils, healing, and speaking with tongues.

Mark 16:16-18 KJV
(16) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Also, I must disagree with your view that "...the believer doesn't go handling and drinking poison to prove anything."

In your opinion why else would a believer do such things?

Strong's defines "sign," G-4592, as "miracle"!

If the gifts of the Holy Spirit aren't miracles then how would you classify them?

Since the above passage clearly indicates to me that the terms "signs" and "gifts" are used interchangeably, I will continue to interpret them as such.

Unless, of course, you...or someone...can convince me otherwise, with scripture.

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Free]

Snake handling and purposely drinking poison have nothing to do with either true Pentecostalism or Christianity.

 

[Pogo]

I'm not an advocate of either handling snakes or drinking poison!

Plus, I'm also not one who speaks in, or even has an ability to interpret, an unknown tongue, unless y'all are some of those who calls Southern a tongue.

But...they ARE both mentioned in the NT Scriptures, IN red ink no less!

I think that the relevant verse, Mark 16:18, serves as a useful reference/backdrop when considering those who speak "in tongues" though, because those who DO handle snakes and drink poison as part of their worship service, ALSO..."speak in unknown tongues".

In Christ,

Pogo

 

[Imagican]

kingdavid,

When we consider ALL that is offered in scripture concerning 'tongues', it becomes apparent that they were FOR A TIME and FOR A PURPOSE. Yet what we witness in this 'modern day tongues' is CONTRARY to the totality of information that we have been offered.

Paul set down the 'rules of tongues'. He NEVER said that they DID NOT EXIST, he even admitted to speaking tongues MORE than MOST. But he gave us the 'guidelines' to discern what ARE true tongues and what are NOT. I have YET to witness ANY tongues that FOLLOW the guidelines.

Women are NOT to speak tongues in the church. One, two or THREE at MOST and by course, which means IN ORDER. and there MUST be an interpreter.

Tongues are NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT.

And to sum up all that he had offered he went so far as to STATE that HE had rather speak FIVE words with understanding than 10,000 words in an 'unknown tongue'. This PLAINLY places 'tongues' in their PROPER perspective.

Blessings,

MEC

i agree with you that there is a lot of misuse of the gift of tongues but as you stated there is a proper order or conduct one might say in which to use this gift. the misuse of tongues does not nullify the genuine use of it. as long as there are true believers in this world, then there will be all the true signsfollowing them. however, we definitely know alot of counterfeit exists too

david,

I was just re-reading the posts in this thread and something 'hit me'. Allow me to expound upon something that MANY seem OBLIVIOUS TO.

Firstly, I won't even go into the likelyhood that the last eight verses of Mark may WELL NOT have been written BY HIM or even at the SAME TIME that the REST of his Gospel was penned. Let us leave that to a 'different' discussion. But LET us discuss that FACT that the words concerning 'them that believe' and the GIFTS that would 'follow'. These words were NOT just offered indiscriminately. These words were stated TO a 'particular GROUP' for a particular PURPOSE. NEVER were these words meant to mean that ANY believers would DISPLAY these signs. These words were uttered TO the apostles that were PRESENT upon the appearance of the ressurected Christ.

To believe ANYTHING other than what I have offered is to ignore what IS offered. And we have the PROOF of what I offer in that Peter proved that HE DIDN'T BELIEVE on at least TWO different occasions. And the group that was UNABLE to 'cast out certain demons' proved this SAME point. Christ even chastised them with the words, "how LONG must I be AMONG you, oh YE of LITTLE FAITH'? Knowing that faith IS BELIEF, then we can see that the words uttered in Mark, (if actually offered as presented), WERE presented in a 'way' that many refuse to SEE. The words WERE spoken TO the apostles. NOT TO YOU OR I.

And we can also see that Paul offered that where there are 'tongues', they SHALL CEASE. So I cannot agree that they still exist today. I know that God is able to offer 'gifts' according to HIS will. So IF He chose for 'tongues' to exist today, then OF COURSE we have NO ability to 'control this'. But the evidence is indicative of 'tongues HAVING ceased'. For we HAVE the 'reason for tongues' offered and this reason was NOT for them that BELIEVE, but for them that BELIEVE NOT. This plainly showing that there was a 'time' when 'tongues' were NEEDED to spread the 'good news' to those that DID NOT ALREADY BELIEVE. So THESE 'tongues' are NOT what we witness in the 'churches' today. For the 'tongues' that I have witnessed were SPOKEN in ways that are CONTRADICTORY to what we have been offered so far as their PURPOSE.

Blessings,

MEC