The Trinity

[Fish153]

I tried at length to explain this to you, from my perspective, but apparently you don't "understand me?" The Spirit of God indwells all men who put their faith in Jesus. And the Spirit of God indwelt Jesus as a man in the same way.

None of this implied anything with respect to Jesus' Divine Nature. By the Word and Revelation of God Jesus appeared *from Eternity,* ie from the Eternal God, to portray that same Eternal God in the form of a man, who happens to also be filled with the Holy Spirit.

As I said before, I don't believe we should conflate the Holy Spirit as a Person of the Trinity with the Spirit of God when referred to as God's Essence, or Constitution. God is spirit, we are told. That is His constitution, His essence, His substance.

But speaking of His Infinite Substance is very different from speaking of His *local operations* via the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is perceived in specific locations, even though He is also of God's Eternal, Infinite Essence.

And being a "local operation" it would be confusing to conflate God's local operations with His Infinite attributes, which include Omnipresence. God as a spirit and God as the Holy Spirit are both realities, but they are distinctly different expressions with their own meanings. One is God's Infinite Constitution, while the other is a Person expressing God in our own finite world.

In other words, "God as spirit" in His Constitution stands apart from the Holy Spirit as God's "local operations." Conflating them creates confusion.

But that's what you're doing. You're describing God's Infinite Constitution as "indwelling Jesus," which sounds irrational. God's Infinite Constitution, or Being, was revealed in the form of Jesus. But it was the Holy Spirit, God's local expression, who indwelt Jesus as a man.

But at this point I'm doubting you understand what I mean. This is becoming an exercise in futility for me?

"to PORTRAY that same Eternal God in the form of a man". Wait, What??? Are you serious?? Portray?? No---Jesus was very God of God---the Son of God. Jesus wasn't "portraying" anything. Jesus was and is the great I AM.

 

[RandyK]

"to PORTRAY that same Eternal God in the form of a man". Wait, What??? Are you serious?? Portray?? No---Jesus was very God of God---the Son of God. Jesus wasn't "portraying" anything. Jesus was and is the great I AM.

Yes, Jesus portrayed God and was God. If you don't think Jesus "portrayed" God, then what was he portraying?

But if you think to "portray something" contradicts "being something" then you are just fussing over words. Not interested.

I can portray a bum at the same time I am a bum. No contradiciton! ;)

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Fish153,

It is so sad that you say "Jesus is not God". Jesus tells the Pharisees in John 8:24: "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins".
Later in the same chapter he says: "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)
It is interesting that both of those verses are in the same chapter, to the same people, and follow the same train of thought. Jesus is clearly revealing something to them that they are MISSING--and need to see for their salvation.

These two references have been extensively discussed earlier in this thread, by myself and a thorough presentation by a Trinitarian.

My position is that these two verses are part of a major theme in John's Gospel of whether Jesus is the Christ. The same words and language is used on a number of occasions concerning this theme:

John 1:19–20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

John 1 is VERY CLEARY teaching us that Jesus is GOD.

Also this has been discussed and John 1 is part of the theme that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. These two themes are mentioned in his concluding comments:

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Fish153]

Greetings again Fish153,

These two references have been extensively discussed earlier in this thread, by myself and a thorough presentation by a Trinitarian.

My position is that these two verses are part of a major theme in John's Gospel of whether Jesus is the Christ. The same words and language is used on a number of occasions concerning this theme:

John 1:19–20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 4:25–26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 7:25–26 (KJV): 25 Then said some of them of Jerusalem, Is not this he, whom they seek to kill? 26 But, lo, he speaketh boldly, and they say nothing unto him. Do the rulers know indeed that this is the very Christ?

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

John 8:58 (KJV adjusted): Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am he.

Also this has been discussed and John 1 is part of the theme that Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection. These two themes are mentioned in his concluding comments:

John 20:30–31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor---

I repeat: "In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD" (John 1:1)

"And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14).

**This is far before Jesus was born. You say "Jesus is the Son of God by birth"----UNTRUE

This PERSON (The Son of God) existed in Heaven with the Father far before he came to earth and was incarnated. JESUS IS GOD. Any attempt to take that title from him is complete and total falsehood.

 

[RandyK]

Trevor---

I repeat: "In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was with God, and THE WORD WAS GOD" (John 1:1)

"And the WORD BECAME FLESH and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14).

**This is far before Jesus was born. You say "Jesus is the Son of God by birth"----UNTRUE

This PERSON (The Son of God) existed in Heaven with the Father far before he came to earth and was incarnated. JESUS IS GOD. Any attempt to take that title from him is complete and total falsehood.

Nobody knows what the Son of God was in Eternity, before he was incarnated as Jesus. Nobody! That's why I prefer the language that says, the Eternal Word generated the Son of God in the form of Jesus in the Incarnation. The "Son of God" is associated with the man Jesus--otherwise, he would not have been called the "Son of God."

Jesus, as the Son of God, is being eternally generated from the Eternal Word of God, who has been with God from Eternity. If you want to call the Word of God in Eternity the "Son of God," that's okay by me.

But I don't wish to give Trevor a foothold by claiming we know who the Son of God was in Eternity. We know Him only as the "Word of God," and after that we know the Word of God generated from eternity and still generates from eternity the Son of God, aka Jesus.

This doesn't mean either the "Son of God" or "Jesus" is strictly fixed in time. They are being *generated from eternity,* and as such are both eternal and produced in time. That sounds like a contradiction to some. To me it is not.