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The truth is out there..not in here >>

M

MrVersatile48

Guest
If you want the truth, see 'examining RC dogma' in theology forum... 8-)

but will this post be deleted as 'irrelevant' B4 I can link 4 ya? :roll:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24563

Cover-ups continue, even @ paedophile priests & by Herr Joe, no less.. :o

but again, RCs will delete as 'irrelevant', yes? :robot:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10497


(Was my vote deleted, as well as my TRUE & BRIEF testimony @ the childhood years as solo chorister & trainee altar boy - as shared elsewhere, where you have no power of veto over any 'Inconvenient Truth'?

Fear not: I won't link dat film review... :o

that WOULD be irrelevant here, no doubt, eh? :roll:

Enjoy anyway 8-)

Actually - & I may well be wrong @ THIS point - but this post was in reply to questions @ RC teachings here..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25195

but as you can see, it's a new thread instead, Fred :angel:

Maybe I hit da wrong button, but in God's wisdom, this is better, init, eh? :P

Anyway, regular readers know full well how cataclysmically catastrophic the RC catechism is - from MANY theology forum threads.. :P

mostly linked here...
:wink:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

But cheer up: even Herr Joe is cordially invited to recant..

& to pledge allegiance to God's undiluted Word...

aka Man's Maker's Manual
:D

Ian :-D
 
Actually, Truth isn't "out there"... Truth is the very person of Jesus Christ. ;-)

The only reason your post would be deleted would be because you have not followed forum guidelines as this forum is not meant to be a debate forum. I'm pretty sure most people on this site are aware that there exists an Apologetics and Theology forum for polite and honest debate.
 
The only reason your post would be deleted would be because you have not followed forum guidelines as this forum is not meant to be a debate forum. I'm pretty sure most people on this site are aware that there exists an Apologetics and Theology forum for polite and honest debate.

Then tell me what exactly is this forum for???
 
I was just going with the forum description...

Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Faiths
This is where you can discuss and/or ask questions concerning these Christian Faiths. This is Not a Debate Forum.
Moderators thessalonian, stray bullet
 
Please stop spamming this forum with your links. If people want to go there and read them, they will.
 
Judy said:
Then tell me what exactly is this forum for???


Vic set up this forum so that Catholics could give the straight scoop on Catholicism without anti-catholic distortions by so called "experts in Catholicism". Anti-catholic propoganda will be deleted in this forum. They can take it to appolgetics. This thread is to be locked. Stray, don't allow this stuff. I don't have much time on here lately.
 
MrVersatile48 said:
If you want the truth, see 'examining RC dogma' in theology forum... 8-)

but will this post be deleted as 'irrelevant' B4 I can link 4 ya? :roll:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24563

Cover-ups continue, even @ paedophile priests & by Herr Joe, no less.. :o

but again, RCs will delete as 'irrelevant', yes? :robot:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=10497


(Was my vote deleted, as well as my TRUE & BRIEF testimony @ the childhood years as solo chorister & trainee altar boy - as shared elsewhere, where you have no power of veto over any 'Inconvenient Truth'?

Fear not: I won't link dat film review... :o

that WOULD be irrelevant here, no doubt, eh? :roll:

Enjoy anyway 8-)

Actually - & I may well be wrong @ THIS point - but this post was in reply to questions @ RC teachings here..

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=25195

but as you can see, it's a new thread instead, Fred :angel:

Maybe I hit da wrong button, but in God's wisdom, this is better, init, eh? :P

Anyway, regular readers know full well how cataclysmically catastrophic the RC catechism is - from MANY theology forum threads.. :P

mostly linked here...
:wink:

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=24079

But cheer up: even Herr Joe is cordially invited to recant..

& to pledge allegiance to God's undiluted Word...

aka Man's Maker's Manual
:D

Ian :-D

There are places for you to post your propoganda in this forum. Take it elsewhere. It is not about relevance. It's about board rules which you ignore.
 
Instead of locking it why don't you move this topic to the Apologetics forum!?
And that would include any other topic you find doesn't belong in this forum...
 
From http://www.crosswalk.com


Could the Pope Reverse the Concept of Limbo?
Shawn McEvoy

According to Catholic teaching, infant baptism removes original sin, that which has stained all souls since Adam and Eve disobeyed God's only (at that time) "do not" commandment.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus clearly taught that innocent little children go straight to be with Him

He even told the position-seeking disciples, 'unless you become as little children, you shall not even see My kingdom'


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But, what about infants who pass away before having the chance to be baptized? For centuries, many Roman Catholics have believed in the state of limbo - a place somewhere between heaven and hell - as a repository for these souls, even though the concept has never been part of official Church teaching.

In fact, the official Catechism state s: “1283 With respect to children who have died without Baptism, the liturgy of the Church invites us to trust in God's mercy and to pray for their salvation†– no mention of limbo.

Yet limbo has also been held by some to be the destination for godly people who lived before Christ. And the poet Danté, in his Divine Comedy, placed even virtuous pagans and classical philosophers in limbo.

According to the BBC's Religion and Ethics site, prior to the 13th Century, the Church held that all people dying unbaptized - including newborns - would spend eternity in hell.

So limbo (from the Latin limbus, meaning "the edge") was expounded as a solution to the theological question of God's fairness and grace over the situation. Even so, many Catholic parents through the ages suffered much guilt and grief over the idea their little one was excluded from heaven, something which concerns the Church greatly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesus clearly taught that innocent little children go straight to be with Him

He even told the position-seeking disciples, 'unless you become as little children, you shall not even see My kingdom'


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many modern Christians, particularly those from non-Catholic backgrounds, are not familiar with limbo, having been taught that while we are all indeed born with a nature given to original sin, a person has not actually sinned until they've made the conscious choice to disobey God. Infants and very young children who die are therefore unstained and bound for heaven.

Either way, the whole idea of limbo may be about to change, as the BBC reports Pope Benedict XVI is said to be very interesting in tying up "loose theological ends." Catholic experts have advised Pope Benedict that teachings on the state of limbo should be amended, while the Pope himself is said to have never quite believed in the concept, and has been quoted as dismissing the notion as a mere "hypothesis."

But change is rare in the Catholic Chuch when it comes to doctrine and traditional teachings. And indeed, the question is being asked whether a change is even necessary in this case. Church historian Michael Walsh claims limbo is so unpopular it has all but dropped out of Catholic consciousness anyway. Considering that fact, should the Church risk the fallout if a papal decree reverses two-thousand years of "firm belief"?

If limbo can be abolished, it opens the door for those who might wonder, "What else is disposable?"

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As soon as Herr Joe was chosen, many evangelicals - inc myself on both http://www.Christianforums.com & the RC-led http://www.xt3.com forums invited Herr Joe to admit that much of the cataclysmically catastrophic RC catechism needs to be recanted, repented of & brought into line with the Bible - especially the clear way of salvation by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in the once-for-all atoning sacrifice of Christ, as Luther's theses pointed out from Romans 3, Romans 10 etc

RC jiggery-popery promptly got me banned from both forums, but I have no fear: 'the rightreous are as bold as a lion' & 'the truth will set you free'

As I preached round NW-UK precincts, days after 9/11, this is a..

"Search & rescue mission..

seeking lost souls, traped in the debris of a fallen world..

only Jesus can sve you!"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

According to Reuters and the BBC, rumors and suggestions abound that the Church may have an ulterior motive in abolishing limbo. As the church strives to maintain influence in regions of the globe where there are high infant mortality rates, many times it's competing with the spread of Islam. In these developing countries, might parents who have suffered the death of their baby be swayed to convert to Islam, which teaches that the souls of stillborn children go straight to paradise, particularly if the local Christian Chuch is preaching another fate?

Father John MacDaid, a theologian and principal of the Catholic Heythrop College at the University of London, denied the suggestion to the BBC. "What I would say to any parent who loses a child and who is anxious about the destiny of that child is that we must have complete confidence that that child is now embraced by God in heaven," Father MacDaid said.

As a counter-point, Father Brian Harrison, a theologian, told the BBC News website that "the clear 'doctrine of the Catholic Church for two millennia has been that wherever the souls of such infants do go, they definitely don't go to heaven.'" So regardless of whether limbo is a "hypothesis" or not, Harrison and others would still resist the idea of the unbaptized finding themselves in the presence of the Lord.

According to the Catholic weekly newspaper The Universe, Father Allen Morris from the England and Wales Bishops’ Conference’s Department of Christian Life and Worship said: "What happens to the child of Christian parents, whose parents haven’t been able to get their child [baptized]? Is that child condemned to Hell? Given what we know of God’s love, this would be unreasonable, so therefore there must be another way."

That "other way" has been under review since 2004, when Pope John Paul II asked the Church's International Theological Commission (ITC) to come up with "a more coherent and enlightened way" than limbo of describing the fate of innocents. The review is part of the Church's wider re-examination of the notion of salvation in general. Pope Benedict XVI had been expected to make an announcement last week, but the ITC had failed to resolve the issue. The Pope has now delayed the decision, and a document on limbo as a theological concept is expected to be published next year.

Father Morris commented, "My own guess as to the reasons for the postulation over the announcement would be that the issue of limbo in the first case presents a theological predicament – in that the Church has always said that Baptism in necessary. But in saying so [it] presents problems."

For example, does doing away with limbo make infant baptism not so necessary, and therefore obsolete? That's not a place the Church would wish to go. "What the Church is struggling to say," said Father Morris, "is that Baptism deepens the sacramental relationship with God. And at the same time God is not vengeful, and so, when the document is eventually published, I expect it so say that grounds for hope in the afterlife for unbaptized children and people of good moral character can be found in the love of God."

Pastor Ray Pritchard of Keep Believing Ministries, commenting from the evangelical perspective, summarizes the argument thusly: "If there is no scriptural support for limbo (and there isn't), and if the teaching serves no theological or pastoral purpose, and if most people don't believe it and most priests ignore it, why keep it on the books, so to speak?"


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crosswalk Family Editor Sarah Jennings contributed to this article.

To discuss this topic further, please visit our Forums.



Must go!

Ian
 
You'll like the conclusion of this new article, guys... 8-)

even if I hear an echo of Paul Daniels' famous joke:- :wink:

Dr. Ray Pritchard
Author, Speaker, President of Keep Believing Ministries

Tuesday, October 10, 2006

Is Limbo in Limbo?

According to this article, the Pope may be about to abolish the Catholic doctrine of limbo, a centuries-old teaching that answers the question, "What happens to unbaptized babies that die in their infancy?" The medieval doctrine of limbo taught that they go to limbo, a sort of halfway house between heaven and hell.

Why abolish a doctrine that has been around for almost a thousand years?

Fundamentally because almost no one believes it anymore and hardly anyone teaches it.

The Pope himself said that the doctrine was a "theoretical hypothesis" and not a "definitive article of the faith." He appointed a commission of theologians to consider what to do about limbo.

According to the article, before the 13th century the Catholic Church taught that all unbaptized infants go to hell because of the taint of inherited original sin.

Limbo as it developed became a region on the "edge" of heaven where those unbaptized infants could live eternally, not exactly in heaven but definitely not in hell.

And there is the further nagging question, one that goes much deeper than questions about limbo.

If this partciular doctrine is up for grabs because no one believes it any longer, what other doctrines could be revised or even dropped altogether? Once you start tinkering with the teaching of the church, where do you stop?

Having said that, I wish to commend the Pope for having the courage to face the issue squarely. If there is no scriptural support for limbo (and there isn't), and if the teaching serves no theological or pastoral purpose, and if most people don't believe it and most priests ignore it, why keep it on the books, so to speak?

It takes enormous courage to confront tradition and say, "We will not teach this any longer."

Overall, I view this as a very positive development. And as an evangelical Protestant from the Reformation tradition, I can only hope that the Pope will appoint a few more commissions to consider a few other doctrines as well.

But it's not just the Catholics who need to do some housecleaning. Every church has its share of inherited traditions--some of which are very valuable and others that serve no purpose except to perpetuate what was done in the past. That's why the reformers adopted this slogan: Reformed and Always Reforming.

God bless the Pope for dealing with a doctrine that cannot be justified in the light of Scripture, theology or pastoral practice.

Let limbo go into limbo, and let every church consider whether its traditions come from man or from God.

You can reach the author at ray@keepbelieving.com. Click here to sign up for the free weekly email sermon.


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Unless my eyes are beginning to get crossed, I thought this WAS Apologetics and Theology forum!!
 
+JMJ+

Unless my eyes are beginning to get crossed, I thought this WAS Apologetics and Theology forum!!

D46,

This thread was originally posted in the 'Catholic and Eastern Orthodox' board.
 
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