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The Value of Evangelism in Reformed Theology

TibiasDad said:
I understand, and to some point, agree with you, however, biblically speaking, it is the agape love of God that is the distinguishing mark of his being and character. It is impossible to conceive of justice, fairness, mercy, and patience without love. Being slow to anger and long suffering, or self-sacrificing instead of self-seeking is impossible without love. Goodness is inconceivable sans love! In many things in life there is a "first among equals" kind of reality. That is what love is in relation to all the other things God is! I like to think of it in these terms: In eternity past, when the Trinity was all that existed, there was no need for justice, mercy, or patience, but there was the need for love for there had always been relationship between the three. Love is the most essential and long-term activity of God.


Doug
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Great point !
:clap
 
jasonc said:
the idea is not without merit

Jesus ,dad Joseph ,was cursed ,Mary wasn't ,the right to the throne of David came by Joseph but not the curse as God cursed that line .
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Do you happen to have a verse which states Joseph was cursed? I can't seem to find one. In fact, I find this description of Joseph...

Matthew 1:19 ---> "Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately."

"A just man" =
  1. righteous, observing divine laws
    1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
      2. innocent, faultless, guiltless
      3. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
        1. only Christ truly
      4. approved of or acceptable of God
    2. in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them


By any definition one uses above, it seems to contradict the notion that he was cursed.
 
Walpole said:
Do you happen to have a verse which states Joseph was cursed? I can't seem to find one. In fact, I find this description of Joseph...

Matthew 1:19 ---> "Whereupon Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing publicly to expose her, was minded to put her away privately."

"A just man" =
  1. righteous, observing divine laws
    1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
      2. innocent, faultless, guiltless
      3. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
        1. only Christ truly
      4. approved of or acceptable of God
    2. in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them


By any definition one uses above, it seems to contradict the notion that he was cursed.
Click to expand...
the prophecy given to the jeciniah,there never be a son given to you,sit on the throne.Joseph,is a make descendent of him .

Jeremiah 22:30
 
jasonc said:
the prophecy given to the jeciniah,there never be a son given to you,sit on the throne.Joseph,is a make descendent of him .

Jeremiah 22:30
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I don't see where Jeremiah 22:30 says Joseph is cursed. If he is cursed, then Matthew didn't get the memo and his Gospel is erroneous. Matthew's words directly contradict the idea that Joseph is cursed. (See Matthew 1:19)
 
Walpole said:
I don't see where Jeremiah 22:30 says Joseph is cursed. If he is cursed, then Matthew didn't get the memo and his Gospel is erroneous. Matthew's words directly contradict the idea that Joseph is cursed. (See Matthew 1:19)
Click to expand...
is Jesus biologically,the son,of David ?
no,why ? because the curse against jeconiah applies .Jesus ,father is God

there is no,man of,the lineage of david that after the curse by God ,could sit on the throne and not face the wrath .

Jesus doesn't fit,that as,he isn't I
of,the son of Joseph but the son,of God .his right by lineage came by,Mary


jewsforjesus.org

The Problem of the Curse on Jeconiah in Relation to the Genealogy of Jesus - Jews for Jesus

Jeremiah 22 says that none of king Jeconiah’s offspring will sit on the throne of David. If Jesus is his descendant, is he disqualified as Messiah?
jewsforjesus.org

interesting ,learn something on haggai
 
jasonc said:
is Jesus biologically,the son,of David ?
no,why ? because the curse against jeconiah applies .Jesus ,father is God

there is no,man of,the lineage of david that after the curse by God ,could sit on the throne and not face the wrath .

Jesus doesn't fit,that as,he isn't I
of,the son of Joseph but the son,of God .his right by lineage came by,Mary


jewsforjesus.org

The Problem of the Curse on Jeconiah in Relation to the Genealogy of Jesus - Jews for Jesus

Jeremiah 22 says that none of king Jeconiah’s offspring will sit on the throne of David. If Jesus is his descendant, is he disqualified as Messiah?
jewsforjesus.org

interesting ,learn something on haggai
Click to expand...

I still do not see a verse stating Joseph is cursed. Perhaps you can find something in Haggai?

The onus is on you to demonstrate Matthew is erroneous. For once again, Matthew calls Joseph a just man.


"A just man" =
  1. righteous, observing divine laws
    1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
      2. innocent, faultless, guiltless
      3. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
        1. only Christ truly
      4. approved of or acceptable of God
    2. in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

By any definition one uses above, it would be the complete antithesis of someone who is cursed.
 
Walpole said:
I still do not see a verse stating Joseph is cursed. Perhaps you can find something in Haggai?

The onus is on you to demonstrate Matthew is erroneous. For once again, Matthew calls Joseph a just man.


"A just man" =
  1. righteous, observing divine laws
    1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
      2. innocent, faultless, guiltless
      3. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
        1. only Christ truly
      4. approved of or acceptable of God
    2. in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

By any definition one uses above, it would be the complete antithesis of someone who is cursed.
Click to expand...
if God says forever and includes none what did he mean?

if joseph wanted to be a king in isreal ,could he?

no.
why,because No son of jeconiah can ever be and Joseph ,that's the curse .

an that lineage of Mathew is. not Mary's as she was on the the other line of zerrubabbel and not a man


you,are getting caught on Joseph himself and not the proclamation by God that no man shall sit on,the throne of david who,is the son of jeconiah.

that's the curse .

no man on the throne of david shall prosper.did God not say that ?

Jeremiah 22 read it fully and its addressing the son of jeconiah and jeconiah himself .Joseph being that can't claim the throne because of that .Mary having no such problem gave Jesus his lineage needed .that is what I was taught .
 

Why Does Jesus Have Two Different Genealogies (Matthew 1:1-16; Luke 3:23-38)?

The genealogy in Matthew 1 is that of Joseph, Mary's husband, recorded for legal purposes. The genealogy in Luke 3 is Mary's, showing the royal line.
www.cgg.org www.cgg.org


strange some don't see this fact,and by curse I mean Joseph ,no,matter just he is can't sit on the throne because God wouldn't bless it and despite knowing this jews could have installed their king during the times of the maccabean revolt .the hassomean kingdom is not from the throne of david but a priest hood one irc
 
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jasonc said:
if God says forever and includes none what did he mean?

if joseph wanted to be a king in isreal ,could he?

no.
why,because No son of jeconiah can ever be and Joseph ,that's the curse .

an that lineage of Mathew is. not Mary's as she was on the the other line of zerrubabbel and not a man


you,are getting caught on Joseph himself and not the proclamation by God that no man shall sit on,the throne of david who,is the son of jeconiah.

that's the curse .

no man on the throne of david shall prosper.did God not say that ?

Jeremiah 22 read it fully and its addressing the son of jeconiah and jeconiah himself .Joseph being that can't claim the throne because of that .Mary having no such problem gave Jesus his lineage needed .that is what I was taught .
Click to expand...


I'm getting caught up on your previous assertion, whereby you said Joseph was cursed. Here again are your words...

"Jesus ,dad Joseph ,was cursed ,Mary wasn't ,the right to the throne of David came by Joseph but not the curse as God cursed that line ." - You, post #425


Once again, if Jospeh was cursed, then Matthew did not get the memo and his Gospel contains a rather serious error. For Matthew calls Joseph not a cursed man, but rather "a just man".

"A just man" =
  1. righteous, observing divine laws
    1. in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
      1. of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
      2. innocent, faultless, guiltless
      3. used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
        1. only Christ truly
      4. approved of or acceptable of God
    2. in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them

--->>>> By any definition one uses above, it would be the complete antithesis of someone who is cursed. <<<<<---
 
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jasonc said:
Jeremiah 22 read it fully and its addressing the son of jeconiah and jeconiah himself .Joseph being that can't claim the throne because of that .Mary having no such problem gave Jesus his lineage needed .that is what I was taught .
Click to expand...
Which circles back to Chava who, through child birth reveals the secrets of God. In regard to Jesus, just a thought of my own here for discussion. But could we then say that the essence of God is found / revealed within humanity while being firmly established within the identity of God?

(Jewish thought that the essence of a person comes through the mother, ie Mary and the identity through the Father ie The Holy Spirit.)
 
TibiasDad said:
I like to think of it in these terms: In eternity past, when the Trinity was all that existed, there was no need for justice, mercy, or patience, but there was the need for love for there had always been relationship between the three.
Click to expand...
This is a pretty profound thought I do not think I have ever considered. If I steal it and use it, you mind if I claim it as my own? (All my material is plagiarized, but I do like to be upfront about it.) :)
 
Hospes said:
This is a pretty profound thought I do not think I have ever considered. If I steal it and use it, you mind if I claim it as my own? (All my material is plagiarized, but I do like to be upfront about it.) :)
Click to expand...

I'm sure most of anything I say has been said before and better by someone else, but I am glad that my thought has resonated with you! Feel free to use it, but I reserve the right to say I taught you that thought whenever I see you use it. ?
 
Hospes

Hi Hospes,,,,
Have you forgotten my post to you, no. 396?

I find your idea that God causes you to do everything (read your bible, etc)....which means you have no free will....
but you still think it's necessary to offer the gospel message to persons.

If you don't care to reply, that's fine --- I just thought it would be interesting to get into the matter of libertarian free will....
And, by the way, if we do NOT have free will, then we are just robots.

Hope to hear from you.
 
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