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The Virgin Birth

  • Thread starter Thread starter DaScribe
  • Start date Start date
PDoug said:
My position is that of the truth. If it is gnostic as well, it is because gnosticism and the truth are one and the same. Besides, my actions and my intelligence are good, and hence bear witness of my authentic faith - Matthew 7:15-20.
  • WE ARE UNDER CONSTANT TEMPTATION these days to substitute another Christ for the Christ of the New Testament. The whole drift of modern religion is toward such a substitution.

    To avoid this we must hold steadfastly to the concept of Christ as set forth so clearly and plainly in the Scriptures of truth. Though an angel from heaven should preach anything less than the Christ of the apostles let him be forthrightly and fearlessly rejected.

    The mighty, revolutionary message of the Early Church was that a man named Jesus who had been crucified was now raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of God. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    Less than three hundred years after Pentecost the hard-pressed defenders of the faith drew up a manifesto condensing those teachings of the New Testament having to do with the nature of Christ. This manifesto declares that Christ is "God of the substance of His Father, begotten before all ages: Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world: perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting: Equal to His Father, as touching His Godhead: less than the Father, as touching His manhood. Who, although He be God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of the manhood into God. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by the unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ.


    A.W. Tozer -Man - The Dwelling Place of God - The Lordship of the Man Jesus Is Basic

Retrieved from http://www.praize.com/classics/article.php?id=187
 
Solo said:
  • WE ARE UNDER CONSTANT TEMPTATION these days to substitute another Christ for the Christ of the New Testament. The whole drift of modern religion is toward such a substitution.

    To avoid this we must hold steadfastly to the concept of Christ as set forth so clearly and plainly in the Scriptures of truth. Though an angel from heaven should preach anything less than the Christ of the apostles let him be forthrightly and fearlessly rejected.

    The mighty, revolutionary message of the Early Church was that a man named Jesus who had been crucified was now raised from the dead and exalted to the right hand of God. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

    Less than three hundred years after Pentecost the hard-pressed defenders of the faith drew up a manifesto condensing those teachings of the New Testament having to do with the nature of Christ. This manifesto declares that Christ is "God of the substance of His Father, begotten before all ages: Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world: perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting: Equal to His Father, as touching His Godhead: less than the Father, as touching His manhood. Who, although He be God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by the taking of the manhood into God. One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by the unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ.


    A.W. Tozer -Man - The Dwelling Place of God - The Lordship of the Man Jesus Is Basic

Retrieved from http://www.praize.com/classics/article.php?id=187
The person who authored the above simply embarrassed himself, because he showed he has no understanding. When is the offspring of a creature never that creature? When is the offspring of an owl never an owl? If a man is an offspring of the Father and the Holy Spirit, is he not only the son of God, but God as well? Don’t you understand that those who have faith are Gods (John 10:34)? And if all those who have faith are Gods, and all things belong to them (1 Corinthians 3:21), are they not higher than all other Gods? And if the church is the body of Christ, aren’t all those who have faith, and are members of that body, Christs as well (1 Corinthians 12:27)?

Further, if Jesus is the Father’s only begotten son, but every man and woman who has faith is begotten of Father in like manner as Jesus (i.e. from the Father and the Holy Spirit), doesn’t that mean we all constitute or are members of the Father’s only begotten son?

We are all replicas or images of Jesus. But Jesus is the first among us (Romans 8:29-30). Hence we are all members or limbs of son in the Truine God - with Jesus at the head.
 
PDoug said:
The person who authored the above simply embarrassed himself, because he showed he has no understanding. When is the offspring of a creature never that creature? When is the offspring of an owl never an owl? If a man is an offspring of the Father and the Holy Spirit, is he not only the son of God, but God as well? Don’t you understand that those who have faith are Gods (John 10:34)? And if all those who have faith are Gods, and all things belong to them (1 Corinthians 3:21), are they not higher than all other Gods? And if the church is the body of Christ, aren’t all those who have faith, and are members of that body, Christs as well (1 Corinthians 12:27)?

Further, if Jesus is the Father’s only begotten son, but every man and woman who has faith is begotten of Father in like manner as Jesus (i.e. from the Father and the Holy Spirit), doesn’t that mean we all constitute or are members of the Father’s only begotten son?

We are all replicas or images of Jesus. But Jesus is the first among us (Romans 8:29-30). Hence we are all members or limbs of son in the Truine God - with Jesus at the head.
Not only does your doctrine manifest its lacking, so do your comments concerning A.W. Tozer. 'Tis a pity.

.....................................................
aw_tozer.gif


...............................................................A.W. Tozer

.............................................A Life In Pursuit of God

Although A. W. Tozer died in 1963, his life and spiritual legacy continue to draw many into a deeper knowledge of God. Tozer walked a path in his spiritual life that few attempt, characterized by a relentless and loving pursuit of God. He longed to know more about the Saviorâ€â€how to serve and worship Him with every part of his being.

Throughout his life and ministry, Tozer called believers to return to an authentic, biblical position that characterized the early churchâ€â€a position of deep faith and holiness. "He belonged to the whole church," says James Snyder in the book, In Pursuit of God: The Life Of A. W. Tozer. "He embraced true Christianity wherever he found it."

During his lifetime, Tozer pastored several Christian and Missionary Alliance churches, authored more than forty books, and served as editor of Alliance Life, the monthly denominational publication for the C&MA. At least two of Tozer's books are considered spiritual classics, The Pursuit of God and The Knowledge of the Holyâ€â€a tremendous accomplishment for a man who never received a formal theological education. The presence of God was his classroom. His notebooks and tools consisted of prayer and the writings of early Christians and theologiansâ€â€the Puritans and great men of faith.

Tozer's conversion to Christianity came when he was seventeen. As a result he gained an insatiable hunger and thirst for the things of God. A cleaned-out area in the family's basement became his refuge where he could pray and meditate on the goodness of God.

Tozer once wrote, "I have found God to be cordial and generous and in every way easy to live with." To him the love and grace of Jesus Christ were a recurring astonishment," writes Snydner.

Although he had not attended Bible college or seminary, Tozer received two honorary doctorates. He accepted an offer to pastor his first church in West Virginia in 1916. By December 1921, Tozer and his wife, Ada, moved to Morgantown where they had the first of seven children, six boys and a girl.

Money was extremely tight in the early days of his ministry. The Tozers made a pact to trust God for all their needs regardless of the circumstances. "We are convinced that God can send money to His believing childrenâ€â€but it becomes a pretty cheap thing to get excited about the money and fail to give the glory to Him who is the Giver!"

Tozer never swayed from this principle. Material things were never an issue. Many have said if Tozer had food, clothing, and his books, he was content. The family never owned a car. Tozer, instead, opted for the bus and train for travel. Even after becoming a well-known Christian author, Tozer signed away much of his royalties to those who were in need.

His message was as fresh as it was uncompromising. His single purpose in life was to know God personally, and he encouraged others to do the same. He quickly discovered a deep, abiding relationship with God was something that had to be cultivated.

While pastoring a church in Indianapolis, Tozer noticed his ministry changing. While he did not depart from the theme of evangelism, God began to lead him into a new phase of ministry. For the first time he began to record his thoughts on paper. This change eventually carved out a place for him as a prolific writer.

In 1928, Tozer accepted a call to pastor the Southside Gospel Tabernacle in Chicago, where he remained for thirty years. The church grew from a small parachurch to a full-fledged church. Missions and the deeper life in Jesus Christ were its two primary focuses.

"Tozer's sermons were never shallow," writes Snyder. "There was hard thinking behind them, and [he] forced his hearers to think with him. He had the ability to make his listeners face themselves in the light of what God was saying to them. The flippant did not like Tozer; the serious who wanted to know what God was saying to them loved him."

Everything Tozer taught and preached came out of the time he spent in prayer with God. It was there that he shut out the world and its confusion, focusing instead only on God. "Our religious activities should be ordered in such a way as to leave plenty of time for the cultivation of the fruits of solitude and silence," wrote Tozer.

He realized early in his ministry that Christ was calling him to a different type of devotionâ€â€one that required an emptying of self and a hunger to be filled to overflowing with God's Spirit. It was also a devotion that consumed him throughout his life.

Leonard Ravenhill once said of Tozer, "I fear that we shall never see another Tozer. Men like him are not college bred but Spirit taught."

"God discovers Himself to 'babes,'" wrote Tozer, "and hides Himself in thick darkness from the wise and the prudent. We must simplify our approach to Him. We must strip down to essentials and they will be found to be blessedly few.

A. W. Tozer died on Monday, May 12, 1963, almost a week after preaching his last sermon. The pursuit was over, the destination reached. A simple epitaph marks his grave in Akron, Ohio: A. W. Tozerâ€â€A Man of God.

The wondrous pursuit of God is more than a legacy. It is a way of life passed on to us that we too might experience what A. W. Tozer lived. Have you begun your pursuit of God?


Retrieved from http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/mighty ... 13610.html
 
Don’t you understand that those who have faith are Gods (John 10:34)?
That would be lower case g. You insist on using upper case.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

When you agree there are things in Scripture that are beyond your understanding, then we can talk. Until then, I will leave your kind of speculation to the skeptics.
 
PDoug,

The person who authored the above simply embarrassed himself, because he showed he has no understanding.

This was a harsh response to Solo's post and only succeeds in making it harder for others to hear you.

Gal 4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

When is the offspring of a creature never that creature? When is the offspring of an owl never an owl? If a man is an offspring of the Father and the Holy Spirit, is he not only the son of God, but God as well?

There is only one begotten son. Leaves spring forth from trees, but they are not trees.

Satan tried to be God, but it didn't work out too well for him.
You are walking a very dangerous line.
Your doctrine sounds Morman.
 
Solo said:
Not only does your doctrine manifest its lacking, so do your comments concerning A.W. Tozer. 'Tis a pity.

.....................................................
aw_tozer.gif


...............................................................A.W. Tozer

.............................................A Life In Pursuit of God

Although A. W. Tozer died in 1963, his life and spiritual legacy continue to draw many into a deeper knowledge of God. Tozer walked a path in his spiritual life that few attempt, characterized by a relentless and loving pursuit of God. He longed to know more about the Saviorâ€â€how to serve and worship Him with every part of his being.

Throughout his life and ministry, Tozer called believers to return to an authentic, biblical position that characterized the early churchâ€â€a position of deep faith and holiness. "He belonged to the whole church," says James Snyder in the book, In Pursuit of God: The Life Of A. W. Tozer. "He embraced true Christianity wherever he found it."

During his lifetime, Tozer pastored several Christian and Missionary Alliance churches, authored more than forty books, and served as editor of Alliance Life, the monthly denominational publication for the C&MA. At least two of Tozer's books are considered spiritual classics, The Pursuit of God and The Knowledge of the Holyâ€â€a tremendous accomplishment for a man who never received a formal theological education. The presence of God was his classroom. His notebooks and tools consisted of prayer and the writings of early Christians and theologiansâ€â€the Puritans and great men of faith.

Tozer's conversion to Christianity came when he was seventeen. As a result he gained an insatiable hunger and thirst for the things of God. A cleaned-out area in the family's basement became his refuge where he could pray and meditate on the goodness of God.

Tozer once wrote, "I have found God to be cordial and generous and in every way easy to live with." To him the love and grace of Jesus Christ were a recurring astonishment," writes Snydner.

Although he had not attended Bible college or seminary, Tozer received two honorary doctorates. He accepted an offer to pastor his first church in West Virginia in 1916. By December 1921, Tozer and his wife, Ada, moved to Morgantown where they had the first of seven children, six boys and a girl.

Money was extremely tight in the early days of his ministry. The Tozers made a pact to trust God for all their needs regardless of the circumstances. "We are convinced that God can send money to His believing childrenâ€â€but it becomes a pretty cheap thing to get excited about the money and fail to give the glory to Him who is the Giver!"

Tozer never swayed from this principle. Material things were never an issue. Many have said if Tozer had food, clothing, and his books, he was content. The family never owned a car. Tozer, instead, opted for the bus and train for travel. Even after becoming a well-known Christian author, Tozer signed away much of his royalties to those who were in need.

His message was as fresh as it was uncompromising. His single purpose in life was to know God personally, and he encouraged others to do the same. He quickly discovered a deep, abiding relationship with God was something that had to be cultivated.

While pastoring a church in Indianapolis, Tozer noticed his ministry changing. While he did not depart from the theme of evangelism, God began to lead him into a new phase of ministry. For the first time he began to record his thoughts on paper. This change eventually carved out a place for him as a prolific writer.

In 1928, Tozer accepted a call to pastor the Southside Gospel Tabernacle in Chicago, where he remained for thirty years. The church grew from a small parachurch to a full-fledged church. Missions and the deeper life in Jesus Christ were its two primary focuses.

"Tozer's sermons were never shallow," writes Snyder. "There was hard thinking behind them, and [he] forced his hearers to think with him. He had the ability to make his listeners face themselves in the light of what God was saying to them. The flippant did not like Tozer; the serious who wanted to know what God was saying to them loved him."

Everything Tozer taught and preached came out of the time he spent in prayer with God. It was there that he shut out the world and its confusion, focusing instead only on God. "Our religious activities should be ordered in such a way as to leave plenty of time for the cultivation of the fruits of solitude and silence," wrote Tozer.

He realized early in his ministry that Christ was calling him to a different type of devotionâ€â€one that required an emptying of self and a hunger to be filled to overflowing with God's Spirit. It was also a devotion that consumed him throughout his life.

Leonard Ravenhill once said of Tozer, "I fear that we shall never see another Tozer. Men like him are not college bred but Spirit taught."

"God discovers Himself to 'babes,'" wrote Tozer, "and hides Himself in thick darkness from the wise and the prudent. We must simplify our approach to Him. We must strip down to essentials and they will be found to be blessedly few.

A. W. Tozer died on Monday, May 12, 1963, almost a week after preaching his last sermon. The pursuit was over, the destination reached. A simple epitaph marks his grave in Akron, Ohio: A. W. Tozerâ€â€A Man of God.

The wondrous pursuit of God is more than a legacy. It is a way of life passed on to us that we too might experience what A. W. Tozer lived. Have you begun your pursuit of God?


Retrieved from http://www.intouch.org/myintouch/mighty ... 13610.html
Look, this guy set himself up as a leader, but you can tell from what he said, that he was unqualified to lead. All he did was regurgitate information from people who were party to the throwing out of hundreds or thousands of genuine scriptures, for political purposes. There was no genuine spiritual insight at all in what he said. Everyone who has real faith has the intelligence of the Holy Spirit, who gives him insight into things. I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in his work.

The above account of this man’s life is nice. But the bottom line is, as I said before, that I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in his work.
 
Vic C. said:
That would be lower case g. You insist on using upper case.

Prov 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

When you agree there are things in Scripture that are beyond your understanding, then we can talk. Until then, I will leave your kind of speculation to the skeptics.
Is God not one union? Therefore doesn’t everyone in this union bear the title God? How can a man who saturates himself with the Holy Spirit via faith, use his own understanding? Don’t you know that anyone who has the Holy Spirit is controlled by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)?
 
PDoug said:
Look, this guy set himself up as a leader, but you can tell from what he said, that he was unqualified to lead. All he did was regurgitate information from people who were party to the throwing out of hundreds or thousands of genuine scriptures, for political purposes. There was no genuine spiritual insight at all in what he said. Everyone who has real faith has the intelligence of the Holy Spirit, who gives him insight into things. I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in his work.

The above account of this man’s life is nice. But the bottom line is, as I said before, that I see no evidence of the Holy Spirit in his work.
You have bared your fanny before all with your statements against Mr. Tozer. Have a good life.
 
DaScribe said:
PDoug,

This was a harsh response to Solo's post and only succeeds in making it harder for others to hear you.
Don’t you know that God gets very irritated by those who set themselves up as leaders, when they themselves do not know the way?

DaScribe said:
PDoug,

There is only one begotten son. Leaves spring forth from trees, but they are not trees.
Yes. There is only one begotten son, but he has many members, and men who have faith are those members. Aren’t leaves of a tree members of that tree? Those who have faith are members of the tree of the only begotten son of God.

DaScribe said:
PDoug,
Satan tried to be God, but it didn't work out too well for him.
You are walking a very dangerous line.
Your doctrine sounds Morman.
No. Satan established himself outside of the union of God and formed his own kingdom. That is how he fell. How can I be accused of establishing myself above the kingdom of God, when I’m wholly dependent of the power of God, and I’m controlled by God (Romans 8:9)?
 
PDoug,

Don’t you know that God gets very irritated by those who set themselves up as leaders, when they themselves do not know the way?

Don't you know that with what judgement we jusge we will be judged? :wink:


I'm beginning to better understand where I think you're coming from. If so, I think you do have a lot of incite to offer.

But,
I still disagree with you about the virgin birth not being a physical and spiritual miracle and I still think while your efforts may give you incite to aspects of God, you cannot limit God to what you know.

I know I'm no one to you that I should advise you, but here it goes anyway. :D I know you've probably taken your share of hits on the board, but most times retaliating results in feeling better for yourself to the detriment of those watching you. (I'm speaking to myself now as well and as many as will hear it)
 
DaScribe said:
PDoug,



Don't you know that with what judgement we jusge we will be judged? :wink:
1 Corinthians 2

15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?"But we have the mind of Christ.


It is reasonable for us to make judgments about the spiritual authenticity of a person or a work, to determine how we should view that person or work. It is however not reasonable for us to make judgments so that we can selfishly place ourselves above others, or place others beneath us.

DaScribe said:
I'm beginning to better understand where I think you're coming from. If so, I think you do have a lot of incite to offer.

But,
I still disagree with you about the virgin birth not being a physical and spiritual miracle and I still think while your efforts may give you incite to aspects of God, you cannot limit God to what you know.
As I indicated before, when all is said and done, God is a being who operates within in His own laws. Jesus stated Gods law in John 3:6 that ‘Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit’. God cannot do anything but act lawfully. Also as I indicated before, the Holy Spirit could not have provided the male seed for Jesus’ flesh, because flesh is inherently wicked, and no wickedness resides within the Holy Spirit.

DaScribe said:
I know I'm no one to you that I should advise you, but here it goes anyway. :D I know you've probably taken your share of hits on the board, but most times retaliating results in feeling better for yourself to the detriment of those watching you. (I'm speaking to myself now as well and as many as will hear it)
If a person has faith correctly, all he has to do is be himself, and fundamental righteousness will be seen in his behavior, because his behavior is controlled by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9, Philippians 2:13).
 
I guess I just see God as bigger than you do and myself less righteous than you perceive yourself.

It does not appear this discussion is going to change that. :wink:
 
Here is an article by Al Mohler


The Doctrine of the Virgin Birth Under Attack--Again

Friday, December 15, 2006

Nicholas Kristof must be a very smart man -- but a very slow learner. A columnist for The New York Times, Kristof is a Harvard graduate and was a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University. But when it comes to something as significant as the nature of Christianity, Kristof and his columns are dumb and dumber.

Back in March [2003], Kristof wrote a very strange column suggesting that his liberal media colleagues ought to give evangelical Christians a closer look. Not that they would like what they saw, mind you, but that the rising public influence of the evangelicals demanded media attention.

His argument came down to this: Evangelicals are strange people with radical religious beliefs that will do great harm to the nation, but they mean well and so let's be nicer in opposing them to the death.

An exaggeration? Kristof acknowledged that he tends to disagree with evangelicals on almost everything. And he intends to oppose evangelical influence at every turn, because, "I see no problem with aggressively pointing out the dismal consequences of this increasing religious influence."

On the other hand, Kristof called upon his liberal colleagues to drop their "sneering tone about conservative Christianity itself." If only he had taken his own advice.

This past Friday [August 18, 2003], The New York Times ran another Kristof piece in its editorial section, and it's a wonder to behold: Perhaps the worst opinion piece to run in that paper in years -- and that's really saying something.

In his new column, Kristof points to "the most fundamental divide between America and the rest of the industrialized world: faith." Unlike the rest of the industrialized world (with the exception of South Korea), America is resolutely religious. Europe is overwhelmingly secular, with low church attendance and very little Christian influence in public life or politics. In America, on the other hand, more persons attend church than public sporting events, and both major political parties court the religious vote -- just in different sectors.

This is not news, at least to anyone even moderately informed about the national character of the United States. One would have to have been locked in a monastery for the last thirty years to have missed the religious dynamic of America's culture war, and even the most casual visitor to western or northern Europe would note its secularity. But the divide between Europe and America is not Kristof's real concern. It's the divide between "intellectual" and "religious" America.

Got that? Intellectual and religious are now opposing terms? What Kristof really means is a divide between secularist/liberal America and Americans who are conservative Christians. As "Exhibit A" for his case, Kristof chose the doctrine of the Virgin Birth of Jesus.

"The faith in the Virgin Birth reflects the way American Christianity is becoming less intellectual and more mystical over time," he wrote. More mystical? Less intellectual?

According to Kristof's reasoning, no intellectually credible person could believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin. As authorities on this he cites the likes of Hans Kung, a German theologian barred by the Vatican from teaching Catholic theology. Kung is a notorious liberal, who has called the Gospel narratives a "collection of largely uncertain, mutually contradictory, strongly legendary," stories. Kristof is obviously unaware of the huge body of scholarship in support of the Virgin Birth. But, in all likelihood, he wouldn't care anyway. Quoting Hans Kung on the Virgin Birth is like identifying Hugh Hefner as a spokesman for chastity.

Kristof cannot believe that so many Christians [he cites 91-percent] take the Virgin Birth to be true, "despite the lack of scientific or historical evidence." Is he demanding an ultrasound?

There are several important divides in American life today, and Kristof inadvertently pointed to one closer than he thinks: the divide between the secular media elites and believing Christians. The media elite is tenaciously committed to a worldview steeped in anti-supernaturalism. Miracles are out, along with the whole idea that modern people should be bound in any way by a 2,000-year-old book.

This is the most important American divide. One the one side are secularists who honestly cannot believe that intelligent people can believe Christianity to be true. One the other side are those who have staked their lives -- including their intellectual energies -- on the truthfulness and authority of the Bible.

It's too bad Nicholas Kristof didn't take his own advice. Instead, he offered up a caricature so ludicrous that it's hard to take it seriously. Have all the editors at The New York Times gone away on vacation? In the end, this sad column tells us all we need to know about the real worldview of the media elite. It's not like we didn't know already.
 
I certainly have no allegiance to intellectuals; and I’m annoyed when people suggest that intelligence and faith are on opposite sides. They are not. It is genuine faith which begets true and immense intelligence. It is fools who say that if something cannot be seen, it does not exist. Doesn’t the wind exist though we cannot see it? Aren’t most lights (electromagnetic radiation) invisible to humans? Don’t we infer the existence of the phenomena we call black holes through lack of our ability to see them?

These so called intellectuals encourage people to pursue perfect lives in a world that is clearly imperfect. If a man is given a vat of molten, polluted steel, in order to forge a perfect sword, how can he make a perfect sword with the imperfect material he is given? Therefore how can people forge perfect lives out of a polluted world? For a sword to become perfect, its steel first has to be purified. But how can polluted steel purify itself? Doesn’t someone from outside first have to purify the steel? Therefore if any man or woman would like to lead a perfect life, that person must first be purified by an agent from outside our polluted universe, and this agent is what the scriptures call the Holy Spirit.

But I’m digressing a bit. The fact of the matter is that there are scriptures that support the notion that there was no physical virgin birth of Jesus – but rather a spiritual one. All I’m saying is that these scriptures are correct.
 
PDoug said:
I certainly have no allegiance to intellectuals; and I’m annoyed when people suggest that intelligence and faith are on opposite sides. They are not. It is genuine faith which begets true and immense intelligence. It is fools who say that if something cannot be seen, it does not exist. Doesn’t the wind exist though we cannot see it? Aren’t most lights (electromagnetic radiation) invisible to humans? Don’t we infer the existence of the phenomena we call black holes through lack of our ability to see them?

These so called intellectuals encourage people to pursue perfect lives in a world that is clearly imperfect. If a man is given a vat of molten, polluted steel, in order to forge a perfect sword, how can he make a perfect sword with the imperfect material he is given? Therefore how can people forge perfect lives out of a polluted world? For a sword to become perfect, its steel first has to be purified. But how can polluted steel purify itself? Doesn’t someone from outside first have to purify the steel? Therefore if any man or woman would like to lead a perfect life, that person must first be purified by an agent from outside our polluted universe, and this agent is what the scriptures call the Holy Spirit.

But I’m digressing a bit. The fact of the matter is that there are scriptures that support the notion that there was no physical virgin birth of Jesus – but rather a spiritual one. All I’m saying is that these scriptures are correct.
Another gnostic false teaching regurgitated. All of the material world is garbage, only the Spiritual world is good.

Other than the fact that God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son for it; and those who are born again believers have the mind of Christ to walk in the spirit as they serve God while in the world relieving hunger, pain, sorrow, etc. etc.
 
Solo said:
Another gnostic false teaching regurgitated. All of the material world is garbage, only the Spiritual world is good.
Please note the scripture below:

Mark 10

18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone
.

Now if God is spirit, and only God is good, doesn’t that mean that only spirit is good?
 
PDoug said:
Please note the scripture below:

Mark 10

18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is goodâ€â€except God alone
.

Now if God is spirit, and only God is good, doesn’t that mean that only spirit is good?
Jesus is God and God is good therefore Jesus is good but he was in the likeness of sinful man even though he was sinless; those that are born again since pentacost are born of God, born from above and they are sinless as they abide in Christ Jesus.

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1 John 3:1-10
 
Solo said:
Jesus is God and God is good therefore Jesus is good but he was in the likeness of sinful man even though he was sinless; those that are born again since pentacost are born of God, born from above and they are sinless as they abide in Christ Jesus.
Yes. But the fact remains that only things that are of spirit are pure, and everything else is impure. Therefore this world, which is physical, is inherently impure. Don’t you see animals devouring one another around you? Don’t you see the stronger pouncing on the weak in this world? Don’t you see storms destroying creatures? How can you say in light of all the empirical evidence around you, that this world is not inherently impure?

Jesus was good by virtue of his faith, which resulted in the Holy Spirit keeping his soul pure. His flesh or body was however impure – as evidenced by the fact that it was put to death. The fact that Jesus rose again, and ascended into heaven with his resurrected body, indicates that Jesus’ body was transmuted into a pure, spiritual form, before his ascension.
 
PDoug said:
Yes. But the fact remains that only things that are of spirit are pure, and everything else is impure. Therefore this world, which is physical, is inherently impure. Don’t you see animals devouring one another around you? Don’t you see the stronger pouncing on the weak in this world? Don’t you see storms destroying creatures? How can you say in light of all the empirical evidence around you, that this world is not inherently impure?

Jesus was good by virtue of his faith, which resulted in the Holy Spirit keeping his soul pure. His flesh or body was however impure – as evidenced by the fact that it was put to death. The fact that Jesus rose again, and ascended into heaven with his resurrected body, indicates that Jesus’ body was transmuted into a pure, spiritual form, before his ascension.

Your postulations concerning Jesus Christ's flesh and spirit are gnostic teachings and flat wrong, but hey, believe what you want. You are speaking of a subject that you know nothing about. Define pure, and when was the last time that you have witnessed purity. How objective are you going to be with a gnostic bias? Not very, I suspect.

Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?
Why or why not?
Are born again believers born of God?
Please explain.
Are believers Gods?
Why or why not?
 
Solo said:
Your postulations concerning Jesus Christ's flesh and spirit are gnostic teachings and flat wrong, but hey, believe what you want. You are speaking of a subject that you know nothing about. Define pure, and when was the last time that you have witnessed purity. How objective are you going to be with a gnostic bias? Not very, I suspect.

Is Jesus Christ God Almighty?
Why or why not?
Are born again believers born of God?
Please explain.
Are believers Gods?
Why or why not?
So anything that goes into the mysteries of the kingdom of God is Gnostic and is hence wrong? I show you pearls, and you rebuke me for doing so.

Anything that is pure exists in harmony with God. It does its will, and it loves God. I witness purity everyday in my life. A man is pure when he is assailed by wickedness at every turn, and remains standing in uprightness. But a man is pure at his core (i.e. in his fundamental actions) – not necessarily around his edges (Matthew 7:3). After all, how can you tell from afar that a man is being subjected to testing if you do not see the roof of his house bend a little, and the shutters squeak in the winds of testing (Matthew 7:24-25)?

Jesus and God Almighty are separate but one. I.e. they are separate individuals, but they are one and the same by virtue of their God union.

Yes. Someone who has faith is born again (John 3:5-7).

Read here for why those who have faith are gods.
 
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