Bible Study The wickedness of a man is better than the good of a woman

[cyberjosh]

Now I've got your attention.

This is exatly what the heretical Apocrypha states in Ben Sira:

"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; it is woman who brings shame and disgrace." (Ben Sira (Sirach) 42:14)

WHAT?! So much for the inspiration of Ben Sira!!! Talk about calling evil 'good', and good 'evil'!

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." (Isaiah 5:20)

Many complain that the Bible mistreats women and casts them as lower than men, not so! The Bible tells of such exemplary women as Miriam, the prophetess (Exodus 15:20) and Deborah, another prophetess (Judges 4:4; 5:7). Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-20) Jael (Judges 4:9); and Abigail (1 Samuel 25) are also women who recieved some praise for good actions.

And no doubt every Christian has read Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman, "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies." (Proverbs 31:10) Also since Christ has come we are all regarded as one and the same in Christ, so, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

But there is a heiarchy, of Christ -> Husband -> Wife. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3) And then there is Husband & Wife -> Kids (Honor your father & mother). Children are subject also, does this make children mistreated or cast down? No.

So the Bible is very fair about the role of women, we just must all learn our place as God has set us. And actually for men it often carries the heavier burden since we carry the role model responsibility for managing and leading our own households, yet a virtuous woman can bless a burdened man enourmously, help him in weakness, and uphold him in times of trial. This is why God made Eve, because He knew that man and woman working together to serve God could be very prosperous. Amen!

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Read this link for further examination of the role of women in the Bible: http://www.frontline-apologetics.com/wo ... _times.htm

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Is this one of the Apocrypha which the Catholic Church accepts?

 

[cyberjosh]

I believe so because Sirach is in the New American Bible, which is a Catholic Bible. But when you ask Catholics about the Apocrypha they sorta shrug it off as "it's just 'there'" though not of much importance, as do KJVonlyers who have to deal with the fact that their 1611 version had the Apocrypha in it also. :P Although to be fair the KJV did include a preface to the Apocrypha to declare that it was not among the Holy Writ.

Though for Catholics, if it bothers them, why not get a different Bible version with the Canonical 66 books in it? I hope its not pressure from the Catholic leadership itself.

Although I must admit that the Maccabees history in the Apocrypha is extrememly useful for study, but its the books (like Ben Sira) that actually make docrinal statements that really get on my nerves since they are not inspired.

But I don't want to derail the main topic. The reason I quoted that horrible verse is to show you the stark contrast between what true Biblical doctrine teaches and what pseudo-Biblical doctrine teaches. Because people always try to use the excuse that "In Bible times most cultures treated their women like dirt", and they are right, but I mean to point out that the People of God and how the Bible treats women is the exception, because of God's love, and having an untainted perspective, since it is inspired.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The Old Testament treated women like dirt. Do not bother denying it. The New Testament is a lot better, since it only has the women being a little subjected to their husbands. They are to be treated as human beings, sort of like children.

I do not agree with the New Testament's subjection of women, but I do believe women are more passive in general than men, and are more easily subjected. Many women like a strong man who has authority (this is different than being a control-freak). Look at James Bond. 8-)

 

[cyberjosh]

Oh, and I just thought of a practical application to what Ben Sira would be saying: He would be saying that Haman was more righteous than Queen Esther!

Get real!!!

 

[cyberjosh]

The Old Testament treated women like dirt. Do not bother denying it.

Oh I'll bother alright, because you're wrong. I suppose you have a problem with the marital laws and such, and yes they do indeed seem a little harsh or inglamorous, but God was just in all he commanded and had good reason for every command. I just think you are a sceptic of the Bible, and disbelieve that God inspired men to write his perfect word into books. Am I wrong?

The New Testament is a lot better, since it only has the women being a little subjected to their husbands.

Subjection (to authority) is not the same as inferiority. Now in the case of God to humans it happens to be but not so among humans. And in the cases of when a believing wife is married to an unbelieving husband the woman is spoken of in favor. (1 Corinthians 7:12-14)

 

[cyberjosh]

I would love to hear a Christian woman's input on this topic. I'm trying my best to defend the integrity of the Bible (and consequently of women), but hearing a perspective from a Christian woman would sure help.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Oh I'll bother alright, because you're wrong. I suppose you have a problem with the marital laws and such, and yes they do indeed seem a little harsh or unglamorous, but God was just in all he commanded and had good reason for every command. I just think you are a skeptic of the Bible, and disbelieve that God inspired men to write his perfect word into books. Am I wrong?

Not entirely wrong. I do not dislike everything about the Bible. However, I refuse to call the murder of innocent women just.

 

[cyberjosh]

Not entirely wrong. I do not dislike everything about the Bible. However, I refuse to call the murder of innocent women just.

I'd love to know what you're talking about. So do tell (and please quote Scripture).

But it seems that you haven't responded much to my other points/posts. Why don't you look at that link I posted in my second post and tell me what you think about it? And perhaps you could comment on the Esther/Haman contrast I made, and perhaps also what I said about the believing wife and the unbelieving husband (along with subjection not necessarily meaning inferiority). Would you mind doing that, please?

 

[D46]

Many complain that the Bible mistreats women and casts them as lower than men, not so! The Bible tells of such exemplary women as Miriam, the prophetess (Exodus 15:20) and Deborah, another prophetess (Judges 4:4; 5:7). Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-20) Jael (Judges 4:9); and Abigail (1 Samuel 25) are also women who recieved some praise for good actions.

Don't forget Rahab...

Joshua 6:17 (KJV) And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.

Hebrews 11:31 (KJV) By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

 

[cyberjosh]

Sorry, but this discussion sort of developed a dual front, because of the other thread that I originally expressed these sentiments in. I would like to reproduce (quote) Quath's posts to me so that we can consolidate the conversation here:

cybershark5886 wrote:
No we are all the same in Christ, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

But we are not all the same in power on Earth according to the Bible.

[quote:b2a03]Quote:
But there is a heiarchy as someone has already pointed out, of Christ -> Husband -> Wife. And then there is Husband & Wife -> Kids (Honor your father & mother). Children are subject also, does this make children mistreated? No.

This heiarchy is what I was pointing out. In a sense, you are proving my point. It forms an analogy: Women are to men as children are to their parents.

Why can't women be up higher in the heiarchy? It seems to me it is because the Bible (that was written by men) say they should not be. I see no other reason.

Quote:
If you want some real bias read the Apocrypha:

Heh I noticed that. [/quote:b2a03]

-----------------------------------------------------------

The original thread was here if anyone wanted to look back on it.

 

[cyberjosh]

I responded:

But we are not all the same in power on Earth according to the Bible.

What do you mean? Spiritually? In that case a woman could be more mature spiritually than a man could, so that works both ways.

This heiarchy is what I was pointing out. In a sense, you are proving my point. It forms an analogy: Women are to men as children are to their parents.

But note that parenting is a co-operative effort.

Why can't women be up higher in the heiarchy? It seems to me it is because the Bible (that was written by men) say they should not be. I see no other reason.

What would you suggest then? That men and women switch places? From what you're saying it sounds more like you would vote for having no heiarchy at all, having all people at the same level of authority. That would mean anarchy though, and anarchy doesn't work in a social system, and certainly doesn't among God's theocracy. Surely you see the necessity of a hierarchical system. This doesn't mean that women are mistreated though, just as children are not mistreated by just being in the position of being someone's child. The Bible does not set up a system that would lead to mistreatement of women if properly implemented.

Also the institution of the Family and the role of each one are pivotal for God's plan for mankind, why do you think that God uses the title "Father"? Not to be anthropomorphic I'll tell you that, it's rather because he has the heart and nature of a Father: lovingly, and caringly, overseeing his children and (consequently) his wife/bride to be (in the form of the Church). God is the supreme example of what a father should be and how he should treat his wife and children, with no mistreatment whatsoever.

Heh I noticed that.

Yeah, Ben Sira was a hoot. I wonder how he treated his wife!

And as a practical application he would be saying that Haman was more righteous than Queen Esther!

Get real!!!

 

[cyberjosh]

D46, thank you for your input. That helps build the case.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I'd love to know what you're talking about. So do tell (and please quote Scripture).

Deuteronomy 22:24
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

While I do not support adultery, it is not worthy of death. The people throwing the stones are murderers.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Can God not make up His mind?

But it seems that you haven't responded much to my other points/posts. Why don't you look at that link I posted in my second post and tell me what you think about it? And perhaps you could comment on the Esther/Haman contrast I made, and perhaps also what I said about the believing wife and the unbelieving husband (along with subjection not necessarily meaning inferiority). Would you mind doing that, please?

I haven't made up my mind, so I will stay silent, not wanting to sound as a fool.

 

[Solo]

I haven't made up my mind, so I will stay silent, not wanting to sound as a fool.

Too late. :wink:

 

[cyberjosh]

Deuteronomy 22:24
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

While I do not support adultery, it is not worthy of death. The people throwing the stones are murderers.

They are merely the executioners as ordained by the law and political system. Don't you think that modern day executioners who operate the electric chair or shoot in a firing squad might every once in while be executing someone not at fault? But they were removed from the judicial decision so they are not responsible for such things.

But this is a different issue. The woman not crying out begs the question of motives. If she doesn't then that means she would have a convenient excuse of rape to enjoy alternate sexual satisfaction from it. As bizarre as it sounds, especially in this day and age, that is why this law was made. If Tamar had nor resisted & cried out when her brother Amnon raped her (2 Samuel 13) she would have been guilty of submitting/consenting to incest. I mean if you just let it happen and offer no resistance (which is unheard of these days) then you are just consenting/going along with it.

And also, God is the judge of whether adultery is a sin worthy of death or not.

John 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Can God not make up His mind?

Oh man there is so much to that story that could I preach a sermon on it. Give me some time. Jesus was extremely clever in that situation though.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Too late. ;)

How did I know you would say that Solo. :P

With all of our heated debates I am glad we can still joke around. :-D

 

[Quath]

From another thread:

What do you mean? Spiritually? In that case a woman could be more mature spiritually than a man could, so that works both ways.

I thinking of earthly power. Feminism is concerned about that. A slave and a master may be "equal" to Jesus, but they are very unequal on Earth. A lot of this sounds like givine women very little rights but at the same time double talking and saying they are equal.

The Bible is just reinforcing inequality and the concept that all people are not created equal.

What would you suggest then? That men and women switch places?

I would say let the best person be higher up. Or if the couple is capable, let them share the authority. Or at the very least, let a couple flip a coin for it. Why should it default to a man? Do men have spiritually superior abilities?

God is the supreme example of what a father should be and how he should treat his wife and children, with no mistreatment whatsoever.

I guess I see that as kind of a scary thought. God is ok with telling some of his childrenn to kill others. He is ok with some children owning other children. He is ok with children raping other children so long as they marry.

What kind of father would ever watch his 8 year old daughter get gang raped and mulitated and not lift a finger to help? So I don't think that God as a father is a very good analogy. But maybe most of that comes from my disbelief in God.

Yeah, Ben Sira was a hoot. I wonder how he treated his wife!

Heh. I feel for her.

 

[jgredline]

Re: The wickedness of a man is better than the good of a wom

Now I've got your attention.

This is exatly what the heretical Apocrypha states in Ben Sira:

"Better is the wickedness of a man than a woman who does good; it is woman who brings shame and disgrace." (Ben Sira (Sirach) 42:14)

WHAT?! So much for the inspiration of Ben Sira!!! Talk about calling evil 'good', and good 'evil'!

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter." (Isaiah 5:20)

Many complain that the Bible mistreats women and casts them as lower than men, not so! The Bible tells of such exemplary women as Miriam, the prophetess (Exodus 15:20) and Deborah, another prophetess (Judges 4:4; 5:7). Huldah (2 Kings 22:14-20) Jael (Judges 4:9); and Abigail (1 Samuel 25) are also women who recieved some praise for good actions.

And no doubt every Christian has read Proverbs 31 about the virtuous woman, "A wife of noble character who can find? She is worth far more than rubies." (Proverbs 31:10) Also since Christ has come we are all regarded as one and the same in Christ, so, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28)

But there is a heiarchy, of Christ -> Husband -> Wife. "But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ." (1 Corinthians 11:3) And then there is Husband & Wife -> Kids (Honor your father & mother). Children are subject also, does this make children mistreated or cast down? No.

So the Bible is very fair about the role of women, we just must all learn our place as God has set us. And actually for men it often carries the heavier burden since we carry the role model responsibility for managing and leading our own households, yet a virtuous woman can bless a burdened man enourmously, help him in weakness, and uphold him in times of trial. This is why God made Eve, because He knew that man and woman working together to serve God could be very prosperous. Amen!

~Josh

Cyber
This is very true and very right. :D
Indeed the man is the priest of his home and is held to a much higher standard than the women. Great post