[_ Old Earth _] The Wolrdwide Flood (Question)

[John]

Why do textbooks never discuss the evidance for a worldwide flood? There is speculation that Mars experienced a global flood, even though, there is currently no free water on the planet. Yet,on earth, where there is enough water to cover the entire globe with water 5000 feet deep, the evidance that we have experienced a recent global flood is ignored. Why do most cultures in the world have a cultural story involving a universal flood? Why did advanced cultures suddenly pop into existence, around the globe, almost simultaneously within the last 10,000 years? Why do many Ph/D geologists believe that the flood explains the fossil record better then huge time periods yet the evidance for this interpretation is not shared with students?

 

[proponent]

Source, please? Also, I've noticed this in a number of your threads, evidence is spelled with an 'e' not an 'a'.

 

[John]

Source, please?

Simple questions. No sources needed.

 

[proponent]

Source, please?

Simple questions. No sources needed.

You pointed out certain facts that I'm not sure are correct, many scientists believe a flood is more likely, enough water to cover the earth with 5k extra feet of H20, the sudden arrivial of cultures in the past 10000 years(on a side note, don't you believe that the earth is only 6000 years old)

 

[Jayls5]

Why do textbooks never discuss the evidance for a worldwide flood? There is speculation that Mars experienced a global flood, even though, there is currently no free water on the planet. Yet,on earth, where there is enough water to cover the entire globe with water 5000 feet deep, the evidance that we have experienced a recent global flood is ignored. Why do most cultures in the world have a cultural story involving a universal flood? Why did advanced cultures suddenly pop into existence, around the globe, almost simultaneously within the last 10,000 years? Why do many Ph/D geologists believe that the flood explains the fossil record better then huge time periods yet the evidance for this interpretation is not shared with students?

Define 'many.' What is many? What ratio?

(Although anecdotal, my girlfriend majored in geology. She found one single person who believed in a young earth flood in her entire 4 years of study, and the person as absolutely crushed by the evidence against it. His professors were more than happy to kindly and cohesively show how it was ridiculous, to which he asserted the same mindless conspiracy theory that "scientists were against" his childhood indoctrinated infallible religious beliefs.)

 

[Barbarian]

The problem here was the mistranslation of "eretz" to make it "the whole earth." That is not the usual use for the word.

 

[jwu]

Why do textbooks never discuss the evidance for a worldwide flood?

Because once something has been falsified, positive evidence doesn't matter anymore.
Until flood proponents have explanations for paleosols, fumaroles, clearly sub-aerial lava flows etc., their hypothesis is out of business.

None of the things which you mentioned are evidence for a global deluge in first instance, by the way.

Why do most cultures in the world have a cultural story involving a universal flood?

Because humans tend to live near bodies of water. The flood stories differ greatly, and there are many cultures which have no flood myth at all. Hence this is not evidence for a single global deluge.

Why did advanced cultures suddenly pop into existence, around the globe, almost simultaneously within the last 10,000 years?

They didn't in first instance. And many cultures existed happily right through the supposed date of the biblical deluge and didn't seem to notice it.

Why do many Ph/D geologists believe that the flood explains the fossil record better then huge time periods yet the evidance for this interpretation is not shared with students?

Many? How many, compared to the overall number of geologists? What is their evidence? Why can't they convince their colleagues if they have good evidence?

 

[John]

Because once something has been falsified, positive evidence doesn't matter anymore.

Great evolution has been falsified http://www.johnmuise.com/ look at the first video.

Until flood proponents have explanations for paleosols, fumaroles, clearly sub-aerial lava flows etc., their hypothesis is out of business.

there was lots of volcanic activity, i see no problem here.

None of the things which you mentioned are evidence for a global deluge in first instance, by the way.

I've said plenty of things, but i do intend to summarize it in another thread.

Because humans tend to live near bodies of water. The flood stories differ greatly, and there are many cultures which have no flood myth at all. Hence this is not evidence for a single global deluge.

i think the count is around 250 all similar to the flood of Noah or a global flood none the less.

They didn't in first instance. And many cultures existed happily right through the supposed date of the biblical deluge and didn't seem to notice it.

Like? let me guess your methods of dating told you this?

Many? How many, compared to the overall number of geologists? What is their evidence? Why can't they convince their colleagues if they have good evidence?

because the scoffers are willingly ignorant.

 

[jwu]

Because once something has been falsified, positive evidence doesn't matter anymore.

Great evolution has been falsified http://www.johnmuise.com/ look at the first video.

LOL...VenomFangX is the new Hovind, he has no clue whatsoever. E.g. Precambrian rabbit fossils would falsify the ToE.

[quote:93f25]Until flood proponents have explanations for paleosols, fumaroles, clearly sub-aerial lava flows etc., their hypothesis is out of business.

there was lots of volcanic activity, i see no problem here.
[/quote:93f25]Volcanic activity falls into many different categories, which can easily be discerned. Lava flows that formed at the surface look very different than those that happen underwater. And air fall tuffs (that include fumaroles) can't form underwater at all. Paleosols are residues of surface vegetation that happily lived for quite some time - these hence cannot form in the middle of a deluge either.

[quote:93f25]Because humans tend to live near bodies of water. The flood stories differ greatly, and there are many cultures which have no flood myth at all. Hence this is not evidence for a single global deluge.

i think the count is around 250 all similar to the flood of Noah or a global flood none the less.
[/quote:93f25]If the theme of a global flood is sufficient, then perhaps...but in many cases that's where the similarities end.
How do you explain gross differences between the flood myths, or the complete lack thereof in many cases?

[quote:93f25]They didn't in first instance. And many cultures existed happily right through the supposed date of the biblical deluge and didn't seem to notice it.

Like? let me guess your methods of dating told you this?
[/quote:93f25]Sumerians, Egyptians.
And yes, various independent dating methods.

[quote:93f25]Many? How many, compared to the overall number of geologists? What is their evidence? Why can't they convince their colleagues if they have good evidence?

because the scoffers are willingly ignorant.[/quote:93f25]
I note that you didn't answer the first questions. What about all the Christian geologists who don't buy into flood geology? Why would they reject it?

 

[John]

The fossil record is too much of a mess to support anything.

If the theme of a global flood is sufficient, then perhaps...but in many cases that's where the similarities end.
How do you explain gross differences between the flood myths, or the complete lack thereof in many cases?

Chinese whisper through the ages.

Sumerians, Egyptians.
And yes, various independent dating methods.

well dating methods fail. also did you know the sphinx shows great signs of water damage? is it not possible that another people lived near the sphinx, the flood killed them all and down the road of time new people moved in. becuase they found these great ruins that thought they were made by "gods" my 2 cents.

I note that you didn't answer the first questions. What about all the Christian geologists who don't buy into flood geology? Why would they reject it?

Name some. note, catholics, JW's. Mormons etc are not "Christian" in the respect that i am

 

[jwu]

Chinese whisper through the ages.

Is even sacred scripture subject to that, or is it passed down rather carefully, with lots of effort being put into avoiding changes? Is this also your explanation to flood myths being "lost" completely?

well dating methods fail.

Occasionally they do - but you need them to fail all the time, and also a mechanism which makes various completely independent dating methods give agreeing results despite of being massively flawed.

also did you know the sphinx shows great signs of water damage? is it not possible that another people lived near the sphinx, the flood killed them all and down the road of time new people moved in. becuase they found these great ruins that thought they were made by "gods" my 2 cents.

Umm...why would these same people have the exact same culture, writing system, architecture and language as the previous occupants? Why wouldn't the sphinx be buried below hundreds of meters of sediments, if the deluge supposedly is responsible for nearly the entire geological column?
=> That makes no sense whatsoever.

Name some. note, catholics, JW's. Mormons etc are not "Christian" in the respect that i am

E.g. Glen Morton or the poster known as Frumious Bandersnatch on Christianforums.com (http://christianforums.com/member.php?u=7449)

There is also the affiliation of Christian geologists:
http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/

 

[Orion]

jwu, when faced with overwhelming evidence, it is common for those with very weak theories to resort to wild rationalizations. It is interesting that these types of people can't look objectively at what you're saying, and think for theselves (past their childhood religious indoctrination). When you have unbroken history passing through the time of the supposed "world wide flood", then you must conclude that the famed "world wide flood" did not occur.

Evidence for a culture (ie. Sumarians, Egyptians) will trump "lack of evidence".

 

[Patashu]

Why do textbooks never discuss the evidance for a worldwide flood? There is speculation that Mars experienced a global flood, even though, there is currently no free water on the planet.

The speculation was that it HAD liquid water, not neccesarily a global flood.

Yet,on earth, where there is enough water to cover the entire globe with water 5000 feet deep,

No, there isn't. You can do the calculations yourself, if you'd like; find out how much water would have to be embedded in the earth to flood the earth!
Entire globe with water 5000 feet deep...okay, so going up to 10 miles plus 5000 feet. Earth's radius is 4000 miles. Volume of a sphere is 4/3*pi*r^3, so the volume of water required is 4/3*pi*(4011^3-4000^3)= 2.21776893 x 10^9 cubic miles. The volume of the earth itself is 2.68082573 X 10^11 cubic miles, so for a global flood to have happened in the past, on average 1% of the lithosphere must be water.
Do you really think 1% of the lithosphere is composed of water?

the evidance that we have experienced a recent global flood is ignored.

Like a continuous, global layer of sedimentary deposit? Oh, wait, it doesn't exist? Guess there's no evidence for a global flood after all.

Why do most cultures in the world have a cultural story involving a universal flood?

How many of those knew just how big the world was and had ways to observe it all? None? So how are their myths and cultural memes testimony to a global flood that they could not have observed? How about the more reasonable explaination of most civilizations emerging in flood plains or by a river, where local flooding would have occured at least once? To them it would have been their world, and such an event could easily be exaggerated into mythical proportions by word of mouth.

Why did advanced cultures suddenly pop into existence, around the globe, almost simultaneously within the last 10,000 years?

'almost simultaneously' 'within the last 10,000 years'? Not adding up.

Why do many Ph/D geologists believe that the flood explains the fossil record better then huge time periods yet the evidance for this interpretation is not shared with students?

Just how many PhD geologists would that be? And how is the flood sorting them into perfect evolutionary order then, as opposed to randomly or by mass/hydrodynamicality/density?

 

[BobRyan]

I note that you didn't answer the first questions. What about all the Christian geologists who don't buy into flood geology? Why would they reject it?

Name some. note, catholics, JW's. Mormons etc are not "Christian" in the respect that i am

I have to admit that the list of Christians that unwittingly adopt the atheist darwinist dogma is mystifying. Even Richard Dawkins - leading proponant of atheist darwinism admits that it is a self-conflicted position to take and so also most Bible believing Christians on this board agree it makes no sense to try to straddle that fence as they do because BOTH sides see the error in such a compromised indefensible position.

Even Darwin admits to the futility of it -

Several threads have been attempted on this very board to draw out those Christians into a bible based discussion on the futility of their pro-atheist-darwinist doctrines but they are reluctant so far to participate in a discussion where the bible has value.

Bob

 

[Barbarian]

Several threads have been attempted on this very board to draw out those Christians into a bible based discussion on the futility of their pro-atheist-darwinist doctrines but they are reluctant so far to participate in a discussion where the bible has value.

The primary difference between Bob and orthodox Christians, is we accept what God says in the Bible. For example, God rules out the "life ex nihilo" doctrine of YE creationism; He says that the Earth brought forth living things.

There's really nothing to say to you, except to urge you to accept His Word.

 

[lordkalvan]

...Why did advanced cultures suddenly pop into existence, around the globe, almost simultaneously within the last 10,000 years? ...

Although there are other questions in your post that I could take issue with, I feel myself most qualified to respond to this as there are a number of problems associated with the way you have used words to impart an air of factuality to what are, in the end, only opinions.

In the first place, what is your definition of 'advanced cultures'? How do you distinguish between the 'advanced-ness' of the social organizations from which they sprang? I am thinking particularly of Dynastic Egypt, whose development can be convincingly traced back through Predynastic Egyptian cultures into the eighth millennium BP. There was nothing particularly 'sudden' about the appearance of Dynastic Egypt and it most certainly did not 'pop into existence'.

It is also the case that the emergence of agriculture, which led to the establishment of much more hierarchically organized societies with specialist skilled workers depended very much on changing climatic conditions as the last ice age waned and rising population pressure helped drive the search for new ways to raise and distribute food. It is also important to understand the speed and extent to which new ideas propagated amongst peoples with relatively primitive means of communication.

 

[freeway]

OP's questions... I think the reason you don't see the flood being taught is simple, if they "non christain and on this site some christians" admit the flood is real. well then they have a problem. The bible is true, all of it, no cherry picking. Also that would mean that God exist, Jesus is the son of God, evolution is a joke (which it is) and that God is still dealing with mankind.. So the easiest way is to say the flood never happen, we've been here millions of years the earth is billions of years old on and on it goes.... 8-) 8-)
after all we don't want to poison the minds of little children with the teachings of Jesus about loving one another.. lets teach them they came from ape... :crazyeyes:

 

[jmm9683]

OP's questions... I think the reason you don't see the flood being taught is simple, if they "non christain and on this site some christians" admit the flood is real. well then they have a problem. The bible is true, all of it, no cherry picking. Also that would mean that God exist, Jesus is the son of God, evolution is a joke (which it is) and that God is still dealing with mankind.. So the easiest way is to say the flood never happen, we've been here millions of years the earth is billions of years old on and on it goes.... 8-) 8-)
after all we don't want to poison the minds of little children with the teachings of Jesus about loving one another.. lets teach them they came from ape... :crazyeyes:

You fail on so many different levels with that post it's amazing. Keep telling yourself that while the rest of us live in reality.

 

[freeway]

OP's questions... I think the reason you don't see the flood being taught is simple, if they "non christain and on this site some christians" admit the flood is real. well then they have a problem. The bible is true, all of it, no cherry picking. Also that would mean that God exist, Jesus is the son of God, evolution is a joke (which it is) and that God is still dealing with mankind.. So the easiest way is to say the flood never happen, we've been here millions of years the earth is billions of years old on and on it goes.... 8-) 8-)
after all we don't want to poison the minds of little children with the teachings of Jesus about loving one another.. lets teach them they came from ape... :crazyeyes:

You fail on so many different levels with that post it's amazing. Keep telling yourself that while the rest of us live in reality.

you know it is so easy to say you fail,, the trick is to prove it.... put your money where you mouth is.... simple.... 8-) 8-)

 

[jmm9683]

OP's questions... I think the reason you don't see the flood being taught is simple, if they "non christain and on this site some christians" admit the flood is real. well then they have a problem. The bible is true, all of it, no cherry picking. Also that would mean that God exist, Jesus is the son of God, evolution is a joke (which it is) and that God is still dealing with mankind.. So the easiest way is to say the flood never happen, we've been here millions of years the earth is billions of years old on and on it goes.... 8-) 8-)
after all we don't want to poison the minds of little children with the teachings of Jesus about loving one another.. lets teach them they came from ape... :crazyeyes:

You fail on so many different levels with that post it's amazing. Keep telling yourself that while the rest of us live in reality.

you know it is so easy to say you fail,, the trick is to prove it.... put your money where you mouth is.... simple.... 8-) 8-)

You're the one that made the claim. You said that there is a huge global conspiracy. Put your money where your mouth is. Until you do, you fail.