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The word "church" being absent from Revelation 4-1

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Judy

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The word "church" being absent from Revelation 4-19

By Alan Kurschner
Here we find a popular argument from silence made by pretribulationists to support their claim that the church is not present on earth during the “Great Tribulation.†It is asserted that the word, “church†does not appear in Chapters 4-19, therefore, it is inferred that the church is raptured just before the events of chapter 4 commence.

Furthermore, pretribbers insist that because the Apostle John is told in Revelation 4:1 to "come up here", this purports to be a picture of the rapture (despite pretribulationism's insistence on a literal interpretation of Scripture).

If one is to be consistent with this method of interpretation he must then conclude that most of the New Testament does not apply to the church. This argument uses a “concordance†type interpretation. That is, if we want to know what passages apply to the church we simply open up a concordance and finger down the page looking for usages of the word "church"; thus, they must be applicable to the church. The problem with this method is that it does not take Scripture in a normal, natural, customary sense. Hence, it is naïve and completely ignores context.

Here are my points:

i) The word “church†is absent from all the classic rapture passages: 1Thess.4:13-17, 1Cor 15:50-54, and John 14:1-4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the “church†will not be raptured?

ii) The word “church†is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4 and 5. But Heaven is the one place we would expect to find it, given this is where pretribulationism says the church will be at that time (because of their less than literal interpretation that Revelation 4:1 represents the church being caught up).

iii) The word “church†is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?

iv) Who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bondservants.†Note it does not use the term “church.†This is a very important fact about New Testament writers. They used many different phrases and descriptions to describe true believers (the true church). Here the term "bondservants†is employed.

a) Again, in Revelation 22:6 the bondservants (the faithful) are addressed. The unfaithful will not experience persecution or great tribulation; it will be the faithful or bondservants within the church
who endure persecution for their faith.

b) Notice that the term "bondservant" is used eight times in Revelation to distinguish them from look-alikes in the church. The focus in Revelation is not the church in general but the faithful, true believers who are persecuted for their faith.

c) It is to the church in general, characterized by compromise, that Christ makes an appeal to repent. The bondservants, true believers, saints, elect of God and those who hold to the testimony of Christ will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

v) The word “saints†is used 59 times in the New Testament. This term refers to a true believer in Christ, a member of the true church. When pretribbers claim that the references to “saints†in Revelation suddenly refer to a special group of “tribulation saints†because of a “revival†during the 70th week of Daniel, this creates a new class of Christians apart from the church. Their assumption forces this distinction upon Scripture. Further, there is no hint of revival during the 70th week. In fact, rebellious men are hardened even more through their unbelief and apostasy.

vi) It should also be noted that it is wrongly assumed that all of the events in chapter four and beyond describe God’s Day-of-the-Lord wrath. But a cursory reading of these chapters reveals that a number of these events are not part of the Day of the Lord but rather describes the persecution of God's people.

In closing, some of Christ's most severe warnings regarding the end times are found in Revelation and Matthew 24. It is not in our best interest as individual Christians or as members of the Body of Christ to “write off†these passages as applying to some group other than the true church. But we must heed the warnings, stay true to our Lord and persevere through persecution and whatever else comes our way.


Posted by Alan Kurschner on 01/23/06 @ 09:38 PM

http://www.prewrathrapture.com/2006/01/ ... e_word.php
 
Yeah
That train of thought was always in my head. Thanks for doin the homework. There are so many other ways to prove there is no pre or mid rapture i never really looked into the "missing church" theory used by the rapturist.
 
Hi Navy guy
Thanks for helping preserve our way of life.
 
Trust me to pick up the wrong bag, today of all days, & leave my Bible at home

I'm not feeling too well either, so I'll come back to this another day, but having studied the Bible for over 40 years, I'll do a brief reply for now

It's not just the word 'church' that's important in Revelation - or elsewhere

Those who love the Lord are seen worshipping Him in Rev 4-5 etc

Rev 6, 8, 9, 13 & 16-19 focus on the increasing degrees of God's wrath poured out on the Earth, while in between, the scenes in Heaven show the saints - (= all who truly love Jesus) - praising God

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 promise the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus will be in good time: specificaslly saying that we are not chosen to go thru that awful time of God's wrath, but to be saved from it

In the meantime, as Jesus warned, we will have persecution & trials/tribulations, but NOT the GREAT tribulation, which He said, in Matt 24, will be unparalleled - 'such as the world has never seen before, nor will again'

Not much time left - (either for me on this public PC or for the Church to complete our Great Commission)

Just to emphasise that the Bible consistently warns the wicked of this awful judgement & wrath to come - as in Isaiah 24, Daniel 7, Joel 2-3, Zechariah 12-14

We can't preach after the Rapture: that will be for the Jews & others who suddenly realise that the Rapture proves God's Word is true

"NOW is the acceptable time: behold, NOW is the day of salvation"

Scripture consistently prophecied this climax generation of all history to start with the rebirth of Israel

A Bible generation is no more than 70 years & Jesus promised THIS generation will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect..otherwise no flesh would survive'

That's why a POST-tribulation Rapture would be too late

Pass it on to warn your loved ones!

God bless!

Ian
 
MrVersatile48 said:
Rev 6, 8, 9, 13 & 16-19 focus on the increasing degrees of God's wrath poured out on the Earth, while in between, the scenes in Heaven show the saints - (= all who truly love Jesus) - praising God
Hi there,

May I ask, when do you see God's Wrath beginning?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 promise the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus will be in good time: specificaslly saying that we are not chosen to go thru that awful time of God's wrath, but to be saved from it
Not so sure about some instant airlift, at least not some secret sort of "airlift". I do agree we are not appointed to Wrath.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

which is wry I asked when do you believe this Wrath to start?

In the meantime, as Jesus warned, we will have persecution & trials/tribulations, but NOT the GREAT tribulation, which He said, in Matt 24, will be unparalleled - 'such as the world has never seen before, nor will again'
I'll take the Biblical silence route and ask, when are we ever told we will not be subjected to the Great Tribulation, other than Revelation 3:10?

Not much time left - (either for me on this public PC or for the Church to complete our Great Commission)
I can't say how much time is left, but we do know this; it can't happen until the Commission is fulfilled.

Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Scripture consistently prophecied this climax generation of all history to start with the rebirth of Israel
I believe it ends with the rebirth of Israel. Israel must be saved before it is "reborn".

A Bible generation is no more than 70 years & Jesus promised THIS generation will be 'cut short, for the sake of the elect..otherwise no flesh would survive'
No, Jesus says the Grreat Tribulation will be cut short.

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


That's why a POST-tribulation Rapture would be too late
Personally, I believe Post Wrath is more precise, since I believe the Great Trib and God's Wrath are two different events. Anyway, I am Pre Wrath, but with God, anything is possible, including protecting us through His Wrath.

God bless!

Ian
Peace Ian
 
May I ask, when do you see God's Wrath beginning?

Joh 3:36 "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

I'd say the wrath of God abides on those who are not in Christ, always. John Calvin [on the shoulders of Augustine, "City of God"] places emphasis on this teaching in his Institutes. Amil has something to say about this as well, I'll look into it a little more.

Peace,

jm

[edit to add]

Just thought of "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" by Edwards.

His comments on "Their foot shall slide in due time" Deut. 32:35

1. That they were always exposed to destruction; as one that stands or walks in slippery places is always exposed to fall. This is implied in the manner of their destruction coming upon them, being represented by their foot sliding. The same is expressed, Psalm 73:18. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction."

2. It implies, that they were always exposed to sudden unexpected destruction. As he that walks in slippery places is every moment liable to fall, he cannot foresee one moment whether he shall stand or fall the next; and when he does fall, he falls at once without warning: Which is also expressed in Psalm 73:18, 19. "Surely thou didst set them in slippery places; thou castedst them down into destruction: How are they brought into desolation as in a moment!"

3. Another thing implied is, that they are liable to fall of themselves, without being thrown down by the hand of another; as he that stands or walks on slippery ground needs nothing but his own weight to throw him down.

4. That the reason why they are not fallen already, and do not fall now, is only that God's appointed time is not come. For it is said, that when that due time, or appointed time comes, their foot shall slide. Then they shall be left to fall, as they are inclined by their own weight. God will not hold them up in these slippery places any longer, but will let them go; and then at that very instant, they shall fall into destruction; as he that stands on such slippery declining ground, on the edge of a pit, he cannot stand alone, when he is let go he immediately falls and is lost.

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/ ... inners.htm
 
Hope you don’t mind Judy, I’ll play devil’s advocate and pick at this a little to clean out the theological closet.

Here are my points:

i) The word “church†is absent from all the classic rapture passages: 1Thess.4:13-17, 1Cor 15:50-54, and John 14:1-4. Following their logic, are we right to conclude that the “church†will not be raptured?

You really don’t have to be a dispey to see the folly in this argument. 1Th 1:1 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.†And 1Co 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:â€Â

We see that both of these epistles are written to Churches that are gentile Churches, of which Paul [the minister to the gentiles] is writing. John 14 should be excluded as you pointed out, I’ll post why [strict] dispensationalist exclude it a little latter. If I’m not mistaken, George will agree that Paul’s revelations are very, very different then what the other 12 Apostles revealed.

ii) The word “church†is absent from the heavenly scenes in Revelation 4 and 5. But Heaven is the one place we would expect to find it, given this is where pretribulationism says the church will be at that time (because of their less than literal interpretation that Revelation 4:1 represents the church being caught up).

Where is the Church? They are united with Christ who is their head, they are the body…the Church. The literal interpretation would mean they are not “in†heaven but in Christ. In point 1 we see the author arguing against “popular argument from silence†and now is using it to make his point…hummm…

iii) The word “church†is absent from the books of Mark, Luke, John, 2 Timothy, Titus, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Does that mean those books do not pertain to the church?

Ahhhhh, but the consistent dispey doesn’t view Matthew – Hebrews as “pertaining to the Church.†The author is aiming this article at pop dispensationalism, ok, I understand. As for 2 Timothy, who will deny the Pauline authorship of this Epistle? No one. As we see in Gal. 2 Paul is the minister to the gentiles, this was agree upon, and we find more info in Acts 16 concerning this. Besides, some mss include: 2Ti 4:22 The Lord Jesus Christ be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen. <The second epistle unto Timotheus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Ephesians, was written from Rome, when Paul was brought before Nero the second time.>


iv) Who are the recipients of the book of Revelation? Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave Him to show to His bondservants.†Note it does not use the term “church.†This is a very important fact about New Testament writers. They used many different phrases and descriptions to describe true believers (the true church). Here the term "bondservants†is employed.

The dispensationalist, who is consistent, will claim Hebrew thru Revelations is NOT written to the gentile Church, but to messianic Jewish believers who continue to maintain their Jewish identity.

a) Again, in Revelation 22:6 the bondservants (the faithful) are addressed. The unfaithful will not experience persecution or great tribulation; it will be the faithful or bondservants within the church who endure persecution for their faith.

b) Notice that the term "bondservant" is used eight times in Revelation to distinguish them from look-alikes in the church. The focus in Revelation is not the church in general but the faithful, true believers who are persecuted for their faith.

c) It is to the church in general, characterized by compromise, that Christ makes an appeal to repent. The bondservants, true believers, saints, elect of God and those who hold to the testimony of Christ will endure struggle and persecution and be ultimately victorious.

v) The word “saints†is used 59 times in the New Testament. This term refers to a true believer in Christ, a member of the true church. When pretribbers claim that the references to “saints†in Revelation suddenly refer to a special group of “tribulation saints†because of a “revival†during the 70th week of Daniel, this creates a new class of Christians apart from the church. Their assumption forces this distinction upon Scripture. Further, there is no hint of revival during the 70th week. In fact, rebellious men are hardened even more through their unbelief and apostasy.

vi) It should also be noted that it is wrongly assumed that all of the events in chapter four and beyond describe God’s Day-of-the-Lord wrath. But a cursory reading of these chapters reveals that a number of these events are not part of the Day of the Lord but rather describes the persecution of God's people.

All of the above points are swept away if one considers the path a consistent literal hermenutic will take you on. Here’s a few notes I posted in other threads.

*By the time John wrote the Apocalypse, the blessing of God had completely departed from Israel.

*The Temple and Jerusalem had already been destroyed by Titus and the sacrificial system lay in ruin. Both Paul and Peter have suffered martyrdom, and the majority of those saved at Pentecost under the kingdom gospel are now with the Lord.

*This raises the question: To whom was John writing? While the Church, the Body of Christ is the means through which God was channeling His blessing at the time, we know John was directed by the Spirit to confine his ministry to the circumcision (Israel) (Gal. 2:9).

*Those who may have reservations about John addressing future Israel should remember that the same is true of many Old Testament prophecies regarding the coming Tribulation. In fact, nearly half of the Book of Daniel falls into this very category. So then, the seven churches to whom John is writing are seven future Jewish assemblies located in Asia Minor (Rev. 1:11).

*As a Hebrew addressing Hebrews, John identifies himself with his kinsman after the flesh. He was their brother and companion in troublous times. If we consult the original here we learn that the definite article precedes the noun, tribulation; consequently, John was their companion during "the" seven-year Tribulation and the Millennium that followed.

*These are the things "which must shortly come to pass" spoken of in verse 1. The reference is to those who will be living at that day. This is confirmed for us by the apostle's next statement: "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Tradition teaches that the Lord's day is Sunday, which is the day Christians worship. However, this is foreign to the Scriptures.


John was a Jewish believer.

Any Jews saved in this dispensation are part of the Church.

God has one purpose, to bring glory to Himself.

And the Churches that are addressed are Jewish in nature.


In closing, some of Christ's most severe warnings regarding the end times are found in Revelation and Matthew 24. It is not in our best interest as individual Christians or as members of the Body of Christ to “write off†these passages as applying to some group other than the true church. But we must heed the warnings, stay true to our Lord and persevere through persecution and whatever else comes our way. Posted by Alan Kurschner on 01/23/06 @ 09:38 PM

Again [the dispey will say], at who was Matthew 24 directed? It was Jewish believers who believed in the Kingdom Gospel BECAUSE the Church is not found in Bible prophecy. The idea of believers being united with Christ [as their head and they as the body] is not found anywhere in the OT, it was revealed by Paul to the Church/elect of God in this dispensation of time. How many forms of “good news†do we find in the Bible? All kinds and they’re directed at different peoples.

You need to prove that God has one set of Saints/elect. From this point on, you need to prove that ALL saints in both Old and New Testament times are united with Christ in the same manner. The dispensationalist will say the saints in this dispensation of time are united with Christ in such a manner that he will remove them from the earth to allow the prophetic clock to start up again.
 
JOB 19:25-27

For I know that my Redeemer liveth, and that He shall stand at the latter day upon the earth. And though after my skin, worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me.
 

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