The Word "Works"

[dadof10]

Blessed new year, all.

To start out the new year, I would like to make a few statements concerning the word "works", the OT connotation and how it's used by Paul in relation to Faith.

1) Traditional Judaism teaches that God gave man the Law and rewards him according to how well he upholds this Law.

2) The Jews of Jesus' time believed if a person did what God told him to do, God basically OWED the person his reward (i.e. justification).

3) This is not the way it was supposed to be from the beginning. The OT prophets were continually chastising the Jewish leadership for promoting the false doctrine that simply performing these "works" was sufficient, without regard to the person's interior disposition.

4) This is what Jesus, and later Paul, was reacting to.

5) The word "works" in Paul's letters primarily, but not always, has the specific meaning "works of the Law".

6) If this were not the case, passages like James 2:24, "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" would contradict Eph. 2:8-9, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast."

7) Protestants give too broad of a meaning to the word "works". They almost always stretch it to mean everything done in faith, except the actual accepting of Jesus as Lord and Savior.

God Bless, Mark

 

[lovely]

Hi Mark,

Happy New Year to you also.

ARe you really a dad of 10? WOW, I would love to be a mom of 10...still hoping.

Could you clarify this...

7) Protestants give too broad of a meaning to the word "works". They almost always stretch it to mean everything done in faith, except the actual accepting of Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I am not quite sure what you are saying, and would like to understand it accurately.

The Lord bless you.

 

[dadof10]

Hi Lovely,

Yes, I'm really a dad of 10 kids, but I cheated. My wife and I each had 4 kids from previous marriages and we have two of our own. I consider all of them my children, though.

When discussing salvation or justification with non-Catholic Christians (NCC, a little less harsh than Protestant) the proof-texts they use to "prove" sola-Fide are primarily the "faith not works" verses in Paul's letters. If, for instance, we are talking about whether Baptism effects salvation, the NCC will point to any or all of the "faith not works" passages in an attempt to equate the "works" in Paul's letters to Baptism. I think Paul was writing about something specific when he wrote about "works" and I don't think anyone can broaden the meaning to include charity or love of neighbor or Sacraments.

But this is what some do. They never broaden it to include the ACT of accepting Jesus as Lord, though which is necessary for salvation.

If you look at the context of the "works" verses you'll see Paul primarily uses the word while writing about circumcision or some other aspect of the Jewish Law.

What do you think? Is, say, Baptism a "work"? Christian charity? Is this what Paul meant?

"I would love to be a mom of 10...still hoping."

I would love to be "lovely",

How many do you have?

God Bless, Mark

 

[lovely]

Hi Mark,

I am a mother to three children, two boys and a little girl. 10, 7, and 5
There is no such thing as cheating when you receive blessings...10 is 10!


On to the topic...

I am not Catholic...I am simply a believer. (I don't mind if you say protestant either, btw) I agree with you to a point, I think Paul was speaking about self-righteousness, which encompasses keeping the law to the letter for the purpose of salvation, I suppose. We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works...this is why we were created. If we clean our own house, so to speak, the Holy Spirit doesn't reside there, and we are still counted along with the condemned. However, if we are saved by grace, through faith, then we are no longer condemned, and the works we do are in Christ. They are also evidential of who we are in Him...the wheat verses the tares, and I suppose only He truly knows who is who.

James said that faith apart from works was like a body without a spirit...there is nothing there to make it (faith) live, walk, and do, in Christ. What's the point of being a light, lit up by the Light of the world, if we have no way to shine among men? So, while we should do good works in Christ, in obedience to Christ, because we love Him, we also have to recognize that it is by grace we stand in faith, and have nothing for which to boast.

The Lord bless you.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Mark - and happy new year to you.

10 kids huh. Wow!! When I first saw your 'handle' I thought you must be counting in binary. :-?

I'm a dad of 4 of my own . . . and 7 pets. Does that count? :
Oh, and I'm also non-Catholic.

May I ask what your personal view of salvation is. What I mean is, what do you believe it takes to be saved?

The Lord bless you
Ed

 

[lovely]

lol...binary. :-D

I would like to know your answer to that question too, Mark.

The Lord bless both of you dads today.

 

[dadof10]

I am not Catholic...I am simply a believer. (I don't mind if you say protestant either, btw) I agree with you to a point, I think Paul was speaking about self-righteousness, which encompasses keeping the law to the letter for the purpose of salvation, I suppose. We are saved by grace, through faith, unto good works...this is why we were created.

Hey Lovely,

I agree with your point about Paul reacting to the self-righteousness that seemed to creep into the Law over time. I don't think these verses can be used against the Catholic position on salvation, as I don't think the "works" Paul was writing about included Baptism, charity, etc.

The Catholic position is basically that we are saved by Grace alone. Everything that is necessary for our salvation, be it Faith, Sacraments, good deeds..etc. are all gifts from God so there is no boasting. We must, of course obey with love or lose it.

What do you think. Are there certain things we MUST do in order to be (or stay) saved or is it Faith alone?

I notice you're from STL. Are you a Rams fan?

God Bless, Mark

 

[dadof10]

Hi Mark - and happy new year to you.

10 kids huh. Wow!! When I first saw your 'handle' I thought you must be counting in binary. :-?

I'm a dad of 4 of my own . . . and 7 pets. Does that count? :
Oh, and I'm also non-Catholic.

May I ask what your personal view of salvation is. What I mean is, what do you believe it takes to be saved?

The Lord bless you
Ed

Hey Ed,

My view on salvation is the RCC (since we are doing acronyms : ) view. I gave a brief explanation to Lovely below. If you'd like I can elaborate. It might take some time, though. I'm in a truck all day and the only chance I get (unless I pull over and swipe internet) is at night, and I have to work around family time.

Seven pets???? Talk about binary. We have one dog and he is as much work as 5 kids. So that would bring you to a total of 39. You got me beat. LOL...

So what is your view on salvation? Faith alone? How do the faithful acts, like charity, Sacraments, that we do throughout our lives effect that salvation, if at all?

God Bless, Mark

 

[mutzrein]

Hey Ed,

My view on salvation is the RCC (since we are doing acronyms : ) view. I gave a brief explanation to Lovely below. If you'd like I can elaborate. It might take some time, though. I'm in a truck all day and the only chance I get (unless I pull over and swipe internet) is at night, and I have to work around family time.

Seven pets???? Talk about binary. We have one dog and he is as much work as 5 kids. So that would bring you to a total of 39. You got me beat. LOL...

So what is your view on salvation? Faith alone? How do the faithful acts, like charity, Sacraments, that we do throughout our lives effect that salvation, if at all?

God Bless, Mark

The briefest of overviews then from my perspective.

In order to be saved, one must be born of God’s spirit or ‘born again’. Although the word ‘saved’ is often used to describe one who is ‘born again’ I don’t believe our salvation will be complete until Christ returns. Paul makes it clear as he writes to those who are ‘saints’ (and therefore born again) that we need to ‘work out our salvation with fear and trembling’.

So this tells me that while we are born of God’s spirit, being made sons and daughters of God, through faith in Christ, we must remain in faith and in doing so we will fulfill whatever ‘works’ God requires of us – not because a Christian should do these things - but because these things are the fruit of a life subject to Christ.

Blessings
Ed

 

[dadof10]

Ed,

Sorry for the long delay.

Although the word ‘saved’ is often used to describe one who is ‘born again’ I don’t believe our salvation will be complete until Christ returns.

Could you elaborate on the above? Are those who are "born again" assured of salvation? If the born again die before Christ returns, do they go to heaven or is their salvation "completed" in Heaven?

I'll try to get back to you a little sooner.

God Bless, Mark

 

[mutzrein]

Ed,

Sorry for the long delay.



Could you elaborate on the above? Are those who are "born again" assured of salvation? If the born again die before Christ returns, do they go to heaven or is their salvation "completed" in Heaven?

I'll try to get back to you a little sooner.

God Bless, Mark

No problem with the delay - I'm a little bit slow myself at times :

There is a theological premise held by some who believe that once a person is 'saved' (born again) they are guaranteed entry to heaven. This is know as Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) but I do not subscribe to it.

I contend that when a person is 'born again' they receive the gift of eternal life, so becoming a child of God. And this is our inheritence. Now while the gift cannot be taken away, we are responsible for what we do with it. Some will walk in faith and the fruit of this faith will be evident. But others will be deceived into thinking that they can achieve their goal (salvation) by human effort. And of course this is not faith but self-righteousness. And as scripture tells us, that which is without faith is sin.

Each will be 'rewarded' according to what they have done with the gift.

And BTW this has nothing to do with dying before Christ returns.