The wrath of God?

[mutzrein]

I asked a question in a thread that is now locked regarding the 'fate' of those who through no fault of their own (being too young, physically or mentally incapable etc) have not heard, nor been able to respond to the gospel.

Is the wrath of God extended to these (who are born in sin) or does God in his justice and mercy deal with them differently?

 

[Spirit Driven]

5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras),

From the Concordant Literal New Testament, a slight varation in the translastion of other Bibles, instead of to be testified in due time..(the testimony in its own eras) is spoken of.

Yes I think there will be Judgements for those who knew and refused to believe, but they will still see salvation according to the above scripture.

So I think it is reasonable to assume the group you mention will also know Salvation.

My experience of the Holy Spirit was an overwhelming Love radiated back at everything that spewed hatred at it ..... let alone disobedient disbelief, or just plain lack of knowing.

Like Paul said... the Grace of the Lord Overwhelms !


Grace and peace to you.

 

[mutzrein]

I'm fascinated by the 'position' of many within Christendom. Many state that to enter the kingdom of heaven you must be born again. And therefore to save the lost from hell they need to 'go into all the world and preach the gospel' in order that they may be born again and saved from the wrath of God which will be meted out to sinful man.

Of course this is all backed up with scripture. But when it comes to the eternal position of people, perhaps who are too young or who have insufficient intellect to hear, understand and accept the gospel, all that is offered to support the notion is the idea that a merciful, gracious, just and loving God would grant them eternal life.

So what happened to, "you must be born again"?

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi Mutz!

I'm fascinated by the 'position' of many within Christendom. Many state that to enter the kingdom of heaven you must be born again. And therefore to save the lost from hell they need to 'go into all the world and preach the gospel' in order that they may be born again and saved from the wrath of God which will be meted out to sinful man.

Of course this is all backed up with scripture. But when it comes to the eternal position of people, perhaps who are too young or who have insufficient intellect to hear, understand and accept the gospel, all that is offered to support the notion is the idea that a merciful, gracious, just and loving God would grant them eternal life.

So what happened to, "you must be born again"?

Romans 2 is very clear @ the questions you ask here

I'm surprised no-one has quoted it so far - or Jesus' famous sayings "Let the little children come unto Me...Unless you become as a little child (in simple faith & trust in God's Word) you will now even see God's kingdom

Back to print later.. 8-)

unless anyone else does in the next 5 mins.. :

Romans 2 (New International Version)

God's Righteous Judgment

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.
2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.
3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?
4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a]

7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.
9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The Jews and the Law

17Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God;
18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law;
19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark,
20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truthâ€â€
21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal?
22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

24As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."
25Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

26If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised? 27The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the[c] written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.
29No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Footnotes:

Romans 2:6 Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12
Romans 2:24 Isaiah 52:5; Ezek. 36:22
Romans 2:27 Or who, by means of a


Romans 3 is the main chapter that ended Martin Luther's desparate quest for assurance of salvation: of course, it's the classic chapter on salvation by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's once-for-all atoning sacrifice & it was a major inspiration & mainstay to the famous 39 theses that he nailed to the door of Wittenburg Cathedral - as was the whole of Romans 1-12 the foundation for the Reformation, that in turn birthed the Renaissance in European culture

RC rejection of his passionate pleas necessitated the 'coming out from among them - (Rev 18:4)

Back to link Luther film review..

God bless all who take God at His Word 8-)

Ian :-D

 

[Spirit Driven]

I'm fascinated by the 'position' of many within Christendom. Many state that to enter the kingdom of heaven you must be born again. And therefore to save the lost from hell they need to 'go into all the world and preach the gospel' in order that they may be born again and saved from the wrath of God which will be meted out to sinful man.

Of course this is all backed up with scripture. But when it comes to the eternal position of people, perhaps who are too young or who have insufficient intellect to hear, understand and accept the gospel, all that is offered to support the notion is the idea that a merciful, gracious, just and loving God would grant them eternal life.

So what happened to, "you must be born again"?

Well it is more like we do not have any say in the matter...... anybody that has the presence of the Holy Spirit come upon them, never wants to leave his presence.

You might hold on to the pleasures of this physical life for about an instant before letting go of it, I know your conciousness would dissapate into nothing trying to expand to the point of taking in his single oneness and the scope of his power and glory, it is not possible for you to do that.

Its like standing on the sea shore, where the water meets the sand, and then having a 30 ft tidal wave smash into the beach where you where standing, you are picked up and become one with that wave, as it washes inland taking all before it, you are completly over whelmed by it.

I AM LOVE !

We have no say in the matter.....we only think we do... it was never our plan to begin with.... despite whatever wisdom we may think we have, WE ARE just dust and ashes blowing in the wind.



Grace and Peace to you

 

[Oscar3]

Spirit driven and mutzrien
It sounds to me like you both have bought into the lie of universal salvation. This tells me that both of you don't believe that Jesus is God.
Am I right or am I wrong.
Here I will be more clear because I don't want to judge you guys so I will ask.

Are you a universalist?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

God bless you,
Oscar

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Mutz!



Romans 2 is very clear @ the questions you ask here

I'm surprised no-one has quoted it so far - or Jesus' famous sayings "Let the little children come unto Me...Unless you become as a little child (in simple faith & trust in God's Word) you will now even see God's kingdom

Back to print later.. 8-)

unless anyone else does in the next 5 mins.. :

Mr. V! :o I'm very fond of posting vss. 12-16 in these cases. God will always provide a way, I believe. I also believe HE will judge those people according to what was written on their hearts and whether or not they abided by it. I do not believe in second chances but I do believe all will get one chance.

How? I will let God take care of determining who's conscience was seared by the word and who's wasn't. I fear and pray for those who do hear, yet do nothing, or the wrong thing, with it. In the meantime, we are to spread the Gospel and not leave it up to what we humans call "chance". ;-)

 

[Preacher Boy]

Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 7:7-9
(7) What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
(8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

I have two messages also that helped me understand this whole "age of accountability" doctrine...

http://www.inthestreets.org/Preachin/Ja ... bility.mp3

http://www.inthestreets.org/Preachin/Ja ... heyDie.mp3

 

[mutzrein]

Sorry guys - time has been against me. I'm not avoiding answering your posts because they are deserving of answers and will get to each in due course.

 

[mutzrein]

Spirit driven and mutzrien
It sounds to me like you both have bought into the lie of universal salvation. This tells me that both of you don't believe that Jesus is God.
Am I right or am I wrong.
Here I will be more clear because I don't want to judge you guys so I will ask.

Are you a universalist?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

God bless you,
Oscar

This one first because it seems easier to answer.

If by universalist you mean that ALL will be saved. Answer: No.

May I ask what made you think that.

Do I believe that Jesus is God. Answer: No. He is the son of God.

But I don't believe that this has any bearing on this thread.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

1Cr 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

It has been said that we ought not judge a person by what they have accomplished, but by what they have overcome to get there.

We look at the infirm and we see what we see. God sees them so much differently. He is able to search the hearts and minds, and to communicate with them in the Spirit, when at times, we can not communicate with them at all. At times it seems as if we believe that God is only able to do or to know the things that we are able to do or to know. We forget that He is sovereign and we are not.

Let God be God. We need to take care of the mission fields that God has given to us, and let God deal with all of the other mission fields in the world. When I become concerned with what might be happening in other parts of the universe, do you know what I do? I tell God that I am concerned with it. When I become concerned for something, my first thought should be "Is God calling me to this?" It just might be that the concerns for the lost that have been expressed in these forums are Gods way of putting the burden on your heart.

He might be calling you to actually go to those people that you wonder about. To be obedient to the call, you might one day find yourself ministering to those who are too young, physically or mentally incapable.
Praying over babies, or those that society has rejected might be just where God wants you.

It could also be that God is simply looking for prayer warriors. Someone to sit in their prayer closet and impact the world by praying for those too young, physically or mentally incapable. "Lord, how do you judge these people? What do you judge? What can we do to make sure that they come into your kingdom? What can we do to make sure that we are not going to be judged for neglecting them, or assuming that they are helpless and hopeless?"

Mat 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.

God loves them. God wants them in Heaven with Him for all eternity. He did not create an unreachable people group. Forgive me for saying so, but it does seem as if so many folks in the forums are looking for the person or persons that the God who created the heavens and the earth can not find.

Imagine a Sovereign God, with this group of people before Him, wondering what is He gonna do now..... Is that how we picture Him? On the other hand, do we not go where He is sending us, claiming that because God is God, He can reach them with or without us...

The other thing that I see, is that the people in question seem to be lumped all together. Perhaps God sees them, like us ~ individually.

 

[Quath]

Here is the problem as I see it.

Say there is a nation of people that never hear of Jesus. Do their people go to heaven? Some Christians say yes and some say no.

If you say "yes" then it means that you can come to the Father without going through the Son and that part of the Bible is a lie. It also means that if knowledge of Jesus was wiped off the face of the Earth, people would still receive salvation. Or the irony is that spreading knowledge of Jesus probably sends more people to hell.

If you say "no" then you have to realize how evil it is to torture someone for all of eternity for something they had no knowledge of. Some ways out are salvation from hell; getting rid of the concept of hell or reducing hell down to something not so bad.

 

[Oscar3]

This one first because it seems easier to answer.

If by universalist you mean that ALL will be saved. Answer: No.

May I ask what made you think that.

Do I believe that Jesus is God. Answer: No. He is the son of God.

But I don't believe that this has any bearing on this thread.

Actually it was my mistake. I meant my question for spirit driven based on her last paragraph. Those with that beliefe seem to believe in universal salvation and those people do not believe the trinity because it goes against what they believe. My appologies again.

 

[Spirit Driven]

Spirit driven and mutzrien
It sounds to me like you both have bought into the lie of universal salvation. This tells me that both of you don't believe that Jesus is God.
Am I right or am I wrong.
Here I will be more clear because I don't want to judge you guys so I will ask.

Are you a universalist?

Do you believe Jesus is God?

God bless you,
Oscar

I had an experience for want of a better word with the Holy Spirit when the Father first drew me to the son.
I have never been able to find adjectives superlative enough within the English language to express adequatly how it felt, or even come close to trying to describe it.

People put tags on others..... I noticed that people who are tagged as Universalists seem to talk about and express.... what I felt.

No Jesus is not God...... the way scripture talks to me Jesus is the son of God..... two entirely seperate individuals.

Father and only begotton Son.....


Peace

 

[Spirit Driven]

Ironicly enough........ I never felt anything to do with Wrath at all.
Mayby because we live in the dispensation of Grace... era, eon age, whatever...I know the Bible tells us that the Lord will not always strive with us, perhaps that is because of the era, eon age we live in now ?


Peace

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Mutz!

Romans 2 is very clear @ the questions you ask here

I'm surprised no-one has quoted it so far - or Jesus' famous sayings "Let the little children come unto Me...Unless you become as a little child (in simple faith & trust in God's Word) you will now even see God's kingdom
.
.
.
.

God bless all who take God at His Word 8-)

Ian :-D

Thanks Ian

What exactly do you believe Romans 2 to be saying? That one can have faith to know God and do by nature the things required by the law WITHOUT being born again?

 

[mutzrein]

Well it is more like we do not have any say in the matter...... anybody that has the presence of the Holy Spirit come upon them, never wants to leave his presence.
.
.
.

We have no say in the matter.....we only think we do... it was never our plan to begin with.... despite whatever wisdom we may think we have, WE ARE just dust and ashes blowing in the wind.

Grace and Peace to you

True - with respect to those who ARE born again. But of course NOT ALL are born again. It is those who are not born again that I am speaking of and the reason for this thread.

 

[mutzrein]

Actually it was my mistake. I meant my question for spirit driven based on her last paragraph. Those with that beliefe seem to believe in universal salvation and those people do not believe the trinity because it goes against what they believe. My appologies again.

No problem Oscar.

 

[Oscar3]

Ironicly enough........ I never felt anything to do with Wrath at all.
Mayby because we live in the dispensation of Grace... era, eon age, whatever...I know the Bible tells us that the Lord will not always strive with us, perhaps that is because of the era, eon age we live in now ?


Peace

What in the world does this mean? :-?

 

[Ambient]

Here is the problem as I see it.

Say there is a nation of people that never hear of Jesus. Do their people go to heaven? Some Christians say yes and some say no.

If you say "yes" then it means that you can come to the Father without going through the Son and that part of the Bible is a lie. It also means that if knowledge of Jesus was wiped off the face of the Earth, people would still receive salvation. Or the irony is that spreading knowledge of Jesus probably sends more people to hell.

If you say "no" then you have to realize how evil it is to torture someone for all of eternity for something they had no knowledge of. Some ways out are salvation from hell; getting rid of the concept of hell or reducing hell down to something not so bad.

Did you expect an answer, Quath? :-?

The common Christian answer would be, "According to Romans 1:20, they are without excuse because the evidence of things seen and not seen is enough for them to know the right way to God". Or something like that. It is, of course, a ridiculous notion that anyone would view the world around them and automatically come to the understanding that "The Hebrew God loved them enough to send his son to die for their sins, and accepting this son will save them and allow them entrance to Heaven."

This is far from the case. And in Christianity's current doctrine, these people would all go to Hell, since they didn't accept Jesus. As for people who can't understand the concept of Jesus (handicapped, young children), there is a "Christian back door", which is, of course, not biblical, but makes them feel better about their doctrine.

I feel that most people are good, and that a TRUE God would offer TRUE justice to every soul/spirit living, and AFTER the soul/spirit is no longer residing in their "earth suit".