The Yahweh Name

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

What I am suggesting is that the "Word", Greek "Logos", is speaking about the Thought, Plan, Purpose, Character of the One God the Father, similar to "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8. The four Gospels give a different perspective. Matthew gives the conception/birth of Jesus and speaks also of the interaction of Joseph as the future husband. Mark does not speak of his birth but introduces John the Baptist and then Jesus' ministry. Luke speaks of the conception/birth of Jesus detailing the interaction with Mary. John speaks of the Divine will, purpose and character of God and although John 1:14 speaks of the Divine begettal, the focus is on the end result of this Divine parentage, in that at the start of his ministry, Jesus was the embodiment of the Divine character and glory, he was full of Grace and Truth. John is NOT speaking of the transfer of God the Son from heaven into a human, but the transfer and embodiment of the Divine character from God the Father to the Son of God, a human, our Lord Jesus Christ. The "Word" is in the realm of ideas and character, not a physical body.

I also consider the word "dwelt", or "tabernacled" an allusion to the Tabernacle, the means whereby God dwelt in the midst of Israel. All the types and patterns and lessons of the Tabernacle are focused and fulfilled in Jesus. The Trinitarian concept of a transfer of God the Son into the womb of Mary is not taught in Matthew, Luke or John's Gospel records. God the Father was the father of Jesus in the conception/birth process.

I will leave that as an open question as to how much the development of the Trinity is based upon Greek Philosophy and Platoism. Those that have studied these sources state the development and the connection. You unwittingly echo the end result of this development which happened over 2-3 centuries. Do you fully endorse the Athanasian Creed or only the Nicaean Creed? And which edition, the first or second edition?

Kind regards
Trevor

I have learned over the years, when someone can't see the plain meaning of scripture about Yahweh God, its because they have put Him in a box of their own limitations.

Do you believe God is infinite, that the heaven and heavens themselves cannot contain Him?

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

The Rabbins of Christ's day (not Plato), had a good way to express this:

'The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place' (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him."-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, (SCHOCKEN BOOKS, NEW YORK 1995 reprint of 1949 edition) p. 8

“for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Acts 17:28 NKJ)

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

I have learned over the years, when someone can't see the plain meaning of scripture about Yahweh God, its because they have put Him in a box of their own limitations.
Do you believe God is infinite, that the heaven and heavens themselves cannot contain Him?
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

You seem to like stating here how you can see and that I am blind to the plain meaning of Scripture about Yahweh. I suggest that such claims do not help your position, but seem to attempt to reinforce your lack of evidence, and bolster your feelings about your failure to answer and properly discuss this subject. Instead of discussing a subject and acting as an advocate for your particular view, you like to be a Prosecutor against me, and then you almost act as Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Could I ask you: What is the relevance of your statement with regard to what we have discussed? In what way have I denied what the Scripture 1 Kings 8:27 clearly states? What relevance has this in dismissing my understanding that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection?

The Rabbins of Christ's day (not Plato), had a good way to express this:
'The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place' (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him."-Abraham Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, (SCHOCKEN BOOKS, NEW YORK 1995 reprint of 1949 edition) p. 8

So what exactly do you believe on this aspect and what exactly is the meaning of each rabbi's profound statement? Are you and are the rabbis denying what is stated clearly in the context of the verse that you quoted? Let us go back to your original quotation and also add other verses in the same context:
1 Kings 8:27 (KJV): But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

1 Kings 8:6–11 (KJV): 6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims. 7 For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above. 8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy place before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day. 9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. 10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

1 Kings 8:28–53 (KJV): 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive. ... 32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, ... 34 Then hear thou in heaven, ... 36 Then hear thou in heaven, ... 39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, ... 43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, ... 45 Then hear thou in heaven ... 49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, 52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee. 53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD.

My thoughts also go to the following, rather than trying to find some obscure Rabbi and his vague teaching:
Psalm 139:1–7 (KJV): 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luke 1:19 (KJV): And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

You seem to like stating here how you can see and that I am blind to the plain meaning of Scripture about Yahweh. I suggest that such claims do not help your position, but seem to attempt to reinforce your lack of evidence, and bolster your feelings about your failure to answer and properly discuss this subject. Instead of discussing a subject and acting as an advocate for your particular view, you like to be a Prosecutor against me, and then you almost act as Judge, Jury and Executioner.

Could I ask you: What is the relevance of your statement with regard to what we have discussed? In what way have I denied what the Scripture 1 Kings 8:27 clearly states? What relevance has this in dismissing my understanding that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection?

So what exactly do you believe on this aspect and what exactly is the meaning of each rabbi's profound statement? Are you and are the rabbis denying what is stated clearly in the context of the verse that you quoted? Let us go back to your original quotation and also add other verses in the same context:
1 Kings 8:27 (KJV): But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

1 Kings 8:6–11 (KJV): 6 And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims. 7 For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above. 8 And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy place before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day. 9 There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt. 10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD.

1 Kings 8:28–53 (KJV): 28 Yet have thou respect unto the prayer of thy servant, and to his supplication, O LORD my God, to hearken unto the cry and to the prayer, which thy servant prayeth before thee to day: 29 That thine eyes may be open toward this house night and day, even toward the place of which thou hast said, My name shall be there: that thou mayest hearken unto the prayer which thy servant shall make toward this place. 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive. ... 32 Then hear thou in heaven, and do, ... 34 Then hear thou in heaven, ... 36 Then hear thou in heaven, ... 39 Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, ... 43 Hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, ... 45 Then hear thou in heaven ... 49 Then hear thou their prayer and their supplication in heaven thy dwelling place, 52 That thine eyes may be open unto the supplication of thy servant, and unto the supplication of thy people Israel, to hearken unto them in all that they call for unto thee. 53 For thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth, to be thine inheritance, as thou spakest by the hand of Moses thy servant, when thou broughtest our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD.

My thoughts also go to the following, rather than trying to find some obscure Rabbi and his vague teaching:
Psalm 139:1–7 (KJV): 1 O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Luke 1:19 (KJV): And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

So you reject God is infinite in Being. You equate placing His Name in a location with limiting the Being of God?

It is pertinent to our discussion about Jesus, because as God HE is the place where all places exist. That destroys any theory that limits His Person to time and space.

Having two natures human and divine, He exists as man in space-time, and space-time exists in Him as God the Word.

That fact destroys any "personification" theory denying "the Word was God" (John 1:1).


Often it is Jesus who speaks as Yahweh in the OT, as John himself made clear saying Isaiah saw Jesus' glory yet it was Yahweh the King (Jesus) he saw:

These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. (Jn. 12:41 NKJ)

So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." (Isa. 6:5 NKJ)

Do you believe God "has a body" "like the angels", a "spirit body" and that He lives in a place called heaven?

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

So you reject God is infinite in Being. You equate placing His Name in a location with limiting the Being of God?

I appreciate your response and partial clarification. I believe that God the Father is a Being, and there is a focalisation of His being as He sits upon His Throne in heaven, with Jesus the Son of God, David's and our Lord, a human now exalted sitting at His right hand, and that the Angels of God are in attendance in the Presence of God the Father and Jesus Psalm 110:1, Luke 1:19, Revelation 3:21-22.

You equate placing His Name in a location with limiting the Being of God?

What are you talking about? God's Shekinah Glory was present above the Mercy Seat and between the Cherubim in the Most Holy portions of the Tabernacle and later in Solomon's Temple, but departed via the Mount of Olives as mentioned in Ezekiel 10:22-23. In what way does this limit the Being of God? God is everywhere present by His Spirit Psalm 139 but this does not in any way contradict the fact that God is in heaven, sitting upon His Throne.
Matthew 6:9 (KJV): After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

It is pertinent to our discussion about Jesus, because as God HE is the place where all places exist. That destroys any theory that limits His Person to time and space.

A profound statement that carries no weight or evidence of truth in my estimation. Please do not pontificate.

Having two natures human and divine, He exists as man in space-time, and space-time exists in Him as God the Word.

Another pontification with no Scriptural backing.

Often it is Jesus who speaks as Yahweh in the OT, as John himself made clear saying Isaiah saw Jesus' glory yet it was Yahweh the King (Jesus) he saw:
These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him. (Jn. 12:41 NKJ)
So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The LORD of hosts." (Isa. 6:5 NKJ)

The vision that Isaiah saw was a vision of the Temple in Jerusalem, with Jesus sitting enthroned in the Most Holy Place. Isaiah 6 is parallel with the vision of the future temple in Isaiah 2:1-4. Isaiah 6 is a vision of Jesus in the future Temple in Jerusalem during the 1000 years. Jesus as representing Yahweh bears the Name Yahweh in the same way that the Angels represented Yahweh and spoke and acted on the One God, Yahweh, God the Father's behalf. If Isaiah 6 is a vision of the Trinity God enthroned, where is God the Father? Btw, Isaiah 6 is one of my favourite passages. How do you understand the 6 wings of the Seraphim, two covering his face, two his feet and with two for flying? I have a pet theory about this.

Do you believe God "has a body" "like the angels", a "spirit body" and that He lives in a place called heaven?

Yes, but our knowledge of many aspects of this is very limited. Man and Jesus were made in the image and after the likeness of God the Father and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:5-9.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Alfred Persson said:
Do you believe God "has a body" "like the angels", a "spirit body" and that He lives in a place called heaven?

Yes, but our knowledge of many aspects of this is very limited. Man and Jesus were made in the image and after the likeness of God the Father and the Angels Genesis 1:26-27, Psalm 8:5, Hebrews 2:5-9.

Kind regards
Trevor

Finally, we see the root of our disagreement. A finite God in a "spirit body" like the angels can't be a Trinity. That is why none of the texts I cited made any impression on you. My interpretation of them is impossible if God has a body, is finite like His creatures.

Its just sophistry to claim He projects His presence by His Spirit wherever He wills, that still leaves you with a finite God who must be a singular person, given He exists in a finite body.

Any scriptures commonly cited to prove God is Triune, would necessarily fall on deaf ears.

But you are wrong, God has no body, no form can "contain" Him.

The Holy Spirit caused Solomon to declare God is not finite, not only is it impossible He be "contained" by a Temple, even the infinite heavens cannot "contain" God:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

Divine Holiness includes complete separateness from any limitation like that found in His creation:

For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. (Isa. 57:15 KJV)

God cannot be likened to any creature, including angels:

To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like? (Isa. 46:5 KJV)

Because God has no shape, it is impossible to make an image of Him that does not grossly misrepresent Him. No wonder He declares images an abomination---they totally lie about His Infinite Being:


15 "Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 "lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,
17 "the likeness of any animal that is on the earth or the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air,
18 "the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish that is in the water beneath the earth. (Deut. 4:15-18 NKJ)

By denying the infinity of God, you deny His Holiness, His complete separateness from the limitations of His creation.

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

By denying the infinity of God, you deny His Holiness, His complete separateness from the limitations of His creation.

I appreciate the clarification of your position. On another theme, have you considered the six wings of the Seraphim? When I shared my opinion with two of my brethren on different occasions, one looked away, and the other changed the subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

I appreciate the clarification of your position. On another theme, have you considered the six wings of the Seraphim? When I shared my opinion with two of my brethren on different occasions, one looked away, and the other changed the subject.

Kind regards
Trevor

No, never considered it. What is your opinion about them?

What I noticed about them is the allusion to the Holy Trinity:

2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!" (Isa. 6:2-3 NKJ)

Each Person, Father Son Holy Spirit, is "Holy", hence Yahweh is declared "Holy" thrice.

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

No, never considered it. What is your opinion about them?

A bit obscure, but you would need to understand the Cherubim and the similar Seraphim as representing Divine Manifestations. For example Jesus is known as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In actual completeness, the Cherubim and Seraphim are focused in Jesus and then this flows on to the faithful, revealing these Divine characteristics. The Seraphim takes its theme from the serpent lifted up in the wilderness and through to John 3:14-16 and other passages. The three aspects of the wings are representing the four stages of the ministry of Jesus. Firstly open face, similar to the clear teaching of Matthew 5-7, then the face covered, where there is some hiding of his message in the parables, then the covering of his feet, where the Jews could not understand his walk and ways, and then his departure via the crucifixion, death and resurrection. You can ignore all of this as too speculative, as did my two mates, but I could expand in some areas.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

A bit obscure, but you would need to understand the Cherubim and the similar Seraphim as representing Divine Manifestations. For example Jesus is known as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. In actual completeness, the Cherubim and Seraphim are focused in Jesus and then this flows on to the faithful, revealing these Divine characteristics. The Seraphim takes its theme from the serpent lifted up in the wilderness and through to John 3:14-16 and other passages. The three aspects of the wings are representing the four stages of the ministry of Jesus. Firstly open face, similar to the clear teaching of Matthew 5-7, then the face covered, where there is some hiding of his message in the parables, then the covering of his feet, where the Jews could not understand his walk and ways, and then his departure via the crucifixion, death and resurrection. You can ignore all of this as too speculative, as did my two mates, but I could expand in some areas.

Kind regards
Trevor

Interesting, but internally inconsistent: "three aspects" represent "four stages". The symmetry is gone.

Although the word Seraphs means "fiery serpents", the emphasis is on "fire", recall the "hot coal" pressed to Isaiah's lips. Therefore, there are grounds to believe they are not serpents, they are fiery beings. Also, serpents don't have wings.

That threatens your association with the fiery serpents lifted up, and consequently to Jesus' ministry.

Why would God symbolize the four items you mentioned in Jesus' ministry, with six wings? What logically connects the two?


And you didn't comment on one saying to the other "Holy holy holy is Yahweh of hosts." I see allusion to the Holy Trinity in that three-fold declaration.

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

Interesting, but internally inconsistent: "three aspects" represent "four stages". The symmetry is gone.

Except I consider the three sets of wings as progressive. The Seraphim observed, and then he covered his face, then he covered also his feet, and then he departed. The latter two at the end of his public ministry:
John 12:32–36 (KJV): 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
This is in the context where Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted as you mentioned. I consider Isaiah 6:9-10 is a verbal expression of what the seraphim wings depict graphically.

That threatens your association with the fiery serpents lifted up, and consequently to Jesus' ministry.

I see a connection with John 3:14 and the above quoted John 12:32.

And you didn't comment on one saying to the other "Holy holy holy is Yahweh of hosts." I see allusion to the Holy Trinity in that three-fold declaration.

I consider that "holy, holy, holy" is an allusion to the Most Holy, not three persons.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

Except I consider the three sets of wings as progressive. The Seraphim observed, and then he covered his face, then he covered also his feet, and then he departed. The latter two at the end of his public ministry:
John 12:32–36 (KJV): 32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33 This he said, signifying what death he should die. 34 The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 36 While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
This is in the context where Isaiah 6:9-10 is quoted as you mentioned. I consider Isaiah 6:9-10 is a verbal expression of what the seraphim wings depict graphically.

I see a connection with John 3:14 and the above quoted John 12:32.

I consider that "holy, holy, holy" is an allusion to the Most Holy, not three persons.

Kind regards
Trevor

Just not "seeing it". Even if correct, I get nothing from it. I see no new truth revealed, nor does any of it comfort me in any sense.

I get excited about Christ's parables, what they reveal:

33 Another parable He spoke to them: "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened."
34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables; and without a parable He did not speak to them,
(Matt. 13:33-34 NKJ)

The "woman" is Babylon the Great, leaven her sinful doctrines (Mt. 16:6) which polluted the entire earth (since the Tower of Babylon) with false doctrine, making them drunk with spiritism. She appears again "from beneath the radar" in the End Time to ride the Grecian Roman Empire Beast from the sea:

5 Then the angel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a basket that is going forth." He also said, "This is their resemblance throughout the earth:
7 "Here is a lead disc lifted up, and this is a woman sitting inside the basket";
8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her down into the basket, and threw the lead cover over its mouth.
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the basket between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the angel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the basket?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the basket will be set there on its base." (Zech. 5:5-11 NKJ)

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev. 17:5 NKJ)

3 "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury." (Rev. 18:3 NKJ)

Goodnite!

 

[TrevorL]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

Just not "seeing it". Even if correct, I get nothing from it. I see no new truth revealed, nor does any of it comfort me in any sense.

That's fine. I have developed my thoughts on Isaiah 6 over a number of years and I have a different background to your general position on a number of important issues. I see Isaiah 6 as an introduction and a theme to the ministries of both Isaiah and Jesus, and I find it also very personally searching. I am uncertain of your blending of the passages you cited.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Alfred Persson]

Greeting again Alfred Persson,

That's fine. I have developed my thoughts on Isaiah 6 over a number of years and I have a different background to your general position on a number of important issues. I see Isaiah 6 as an introduction and a theme to the ministries of both Isaiah and Jesus, and I find it also very personally searching. I am uncertain of your blending of the passages you cited.

Kind regards
Trevor

Context informs the "blending". First the world destroys some of the crop the Sower sowed (Mt. 13:8). Then the Devil sows tares among the wheat (Mt. 13:24-30). Then the Kingdom is like a mustard tree where the branches become infested with the "birds of the air", which in Revelation symbolize evil spirits (Mt. 13:31-32; Rev. 18:2). So the woman and leaven is grouped with these "bad events". Jesus uses "leaven" to symbolize bad doctrine (Mt. 16:6). She kneads three measures because three symbolizes potency (Mt. 13:33), strength as in "a threefold cord is not quickly broken" (Ecc. 4:12).


Only after this series of bad actors come the two parables, both referring to individuals, emphasizing good: the merchant who sells all he owns to buy the treasure of God's truth; (Mt. 13:44-46) and that directly followed the "righteous shine forth as the sun" (Mt. 13:43), and merchant who sold all to buy the pearl of great price (Mt. 13:45-46).