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There is no Hell

guibox said:
First of all, God is not about fear.
huh.
well I guess you and I must be reading different bibles.
"And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have nothing further they can do. But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who after He kills, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!
(Luk 12:4-5 EMTV)
"about" fear is semantics. No He isnt 'about' fear but we SHOULD be in reverent fear of the One who CAN cast us into hell.
Doing away with hell is nothing but trying to remove the fear factor. There is no other purpose.
God is not about punishment for the sake of punishment. The whole purpose of sending Christ to die and be our substitute was to save us from 'death' brought on by sin. That is His ultimate goal, not to worry about how and how long sinners should be punished.
To save us from what we will endure otherwise, I agree. Which scripture shows is eternal torment....even if some cannot accept this reality.

Second, look around you at the atheists of the world. Do you think with all the hell and torment that they still fear God? No, they don't. Eternal torment is just as ineffective to convince people to follow God as annihilation in this regard.
Lets not try to reason away the facts here. There are many things in scripture that dont seem 'effective' in my opinion, but that doesnt change what Gods word SAYS overall.

Third, the Bible makes it clear that there will be torment and pain. The process of destruction is a special process, unlike anything we've seen. Nobody says that the wicked are going to peacefully fall asleep.
Actually many DO say pretty much just that concerning unbelievers.
This 'People won't fear God if annihilation is true' and 'people don't get what they deserve' are such awful, grace and love mocking arguments and full of faulty logic that it is embarrassing to even have to address.
please.
Why fear anyone who cannot or will not punish you except to take you out of existence.

You can reason your way into believing whatyou wish, friend, the EVIDENCE proves that ET is very much a reality for those who do not come to Christ.

Id prefer that if you are going to post in my direction that you bring evidence to bear instead of simply emotional arguments as they are really wasting both of our time since nothing is proven by them.

God bless.
 
I want you guys to remember that Yahshua came speaking in parables. Eternal fire is parabolic for "eternal judgement." "Their worm never dies" means their distruction is final. The term "Lake of Fire" is also parabolic. If you want to live again, then serve God by keeping the commandments and the faith of Yahshua.
 
"Just as the Apocalypse gives us a picture of the state of the glorified church in heaven in Revelation 21:1–22:5 that is sheer rapture, so it gives us an equally graphic representation of hell that is sheer horror. In Revelation 14:9–11 John declares that he who has the mark of the beast “will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath,†and that he “will be tormented in fire … and the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.2 And those who worship the beast … have no rest day and night.†Here eternal conscious torment is said to be the punishment of those who have the mark of the beast. In 19:20 John speaks of “the lake of fire that burns with brimstone,†and in 20:15 he declares that “if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire†which is the “second death.†From such Johannine notices as these in the Apocalypse it is clear that the divine judgment awaiting evildoers is certain, just, and eternal.
These features of the eschatological judgment have led some modern evangelical theologians who consider the doctrine of unending conscious torment to be, if not intrinsically unethical, at the very least a reflection upon the gracious side of the divine character, to propound the theory of the impenitent’s final annihilation, body and soul.3 In fact, the Doctrine Commission of the Church of England issued a report in January 1996, entitled “The Mystery of Salvation,†that declares:
Hell is not eternal torment, but the final and irrevocable choosing of that which is opposed to God so completely and absolutely that the only end is total non-being.
Donald Guthrie is, of course, correct when he states that “the doctrine of eternal punishment is not an attractive doctrine and the desire to substitute for it the view that, at the judgment, the souls of the wicked will cease to exist, is understandable.â€Â4 But, and with this Guthrie would agree, the Bibleâ€â€which, after all, is our only rule of faith for the doctrine of hellâ€â€will not endorse such a substitution. Nor is such a substitution really any more acceptable to the modern mind than the traditional view, for there would still needs come that moment when God would annihilate the sinner by casting him into hellâ€â€a notion equally repugnant to the modern mind, which would have God to be a God only of love. Nevertheless, no less an esteemed evangelical than John Stott advances four argumentsâ€â€related in turn to scriptural language, scriptural imagery, scriptural divine justice, and scriptural universalismâ€â€to make the case for the impenitent’s annihilation. His first argument makes the basic point that since eternal perdition is often described in Scripture in terms of the sinner’s “destruction,†“it would seem strange … if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed.â€Â5 Second, he contends that the imagery of hell as “eternal fire†suggestsâ€â€since (he writes) “the main function of fire is not to cause pain, but to secure destruction, as all the world’s incinerators bear witnessâ€Ââ€â€that the sinner in hell is to be consumed, not tormented.6 Third is his contention that a serious disproportion incompatible with the biblical revelation of divine justice would seem to exist between “sins consciously committed in time and torment consciously experienced throughout eternity.â€Â7 Finally, he argues that “the eternal existence of the impenitent in hell would be hard to reconcile with the promises of God’s final victory over evil, or with the apparently universalistic texts which speak of Christ drawing all men to himself (John 12:32), and of God uniting all things under Christ’s headship (Ephesians 1:10), reconciling all things to himself through Christ (Colossians 1:20), and bringing every knee to bow to Christ and every tongue to confess his lordship (Philippians 2:10–11), so that in the end God will be ‘all in all’ or ‘everything to everybody’ (1 Corinthians 15:28).â€Â8 I will address these arguments in turn.

THE SCRIPTURAL LANGUAGE

The most fruitful way to address the meaning of the scriptural language pertaining to the eternal condition of the impenitent is to cite the relevant passages and to comment upon those whose meaning may not be obvious....

The New Testament Doctrine of Eternal Punishment

What is the evidence supporting what Motyer termed earlier the New Testament’s “maturer†doctrine of unending conscious torment for the unrepentant? In addition to John’s witness from the Apocalypse, consider the following New Testament data:

John the Baptist

To the multitudes who came to hear him, John the Baptist declared: “[the Messiah] will consume [καÄακαÃÂÃει, katakausei] the chaff with unquenchable [ἀÃβέÃĀῳ, asbestÃ…Â] fire.†(Matt. 3:12)
Annihilationists argue that the action depicted by the verb here is not one of “tormenting†the chaff in unquenchable fire but one of “consuming†the chaff. But this argument ignores the fuller analogy of Scripture and leaves unexplained why John characterizes the fire as “unquenchable.†To maintain that the adjective “unquenchable†means that that which is instantly consumed by the fire is consumed forever13 does not really explain why the fire is described as unquenchable. If the chaff is consumed by the fire, as the annihilationist maintains, there would be no need for it to be unquenchable. Once it had “incinerated†the chaff, it could be put out. I do not mean that hell is necessarily a place of literal flame. Doubtless much of the language of Scripture describing the unseen world must be understood figuratively. But figurative language, if it has any meaning at all (and it does), intends something literal, and it is my contention that the figure of “unquenchable fire†here, in the light of many other Scripture references, intends at the very least unending conscious misery of immeasurable dimensions.

Jesus Christ

It may come as a surprise to some readers that the strongest support for the doctrine of unending conscious torment for the impenitent is to be found in the teaching of Jesus Christ. The Christian church and Christian pastors are not the authors of this doctrine. Rather, Jesus, the Redeemer of men, is more responsible than any other person for the doctrine of eternal perdition. It is he, therefore, more than any other, with whom the opponents of the doctrine are in conflict. Consider his witness:
Mark 9:43: “It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell [Äὴν γέενναν, tÄ“n geennan], where the fire never goes out.â€Â
Jesus’ word translated “hell†here is Gehenna, the Aramaic form of “Valley of Hinnom,†and it is derived from the Hebrew placename in 2 Kings 23:10, “Topheth [place of spitting?] which was in the Valley of Benei Hinnom,†an idolatrous worship center from the time of Ahaz to Manasseh south of Jerusalem where children were burned in fire as an offering to the god Moloch (2 Chron. 28:3). It was destroyed by Josiah and from late Jewish tradition (David Qimchi, c. a.d. 1200) we learn that it was made a refuse dump for the city’s garbage. Since fire burned continually in this valley, Gehenna became a symbol of the “unquenchable fire†of hell, a place of perpetual fire and loathsomeness (see Isa. 30:33 for the meaning of Topheth, which became a synonym for the site as a whole: “Topheth has long been prepared; it has been made ready.… Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of burning sulphur, sets it ablaze.â€Â)
Mark 9:47–48: “It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm [that is, their “maggotâ€Â] does not die, and the fire is not quenched’ â€Â(see Isa. 66:24; Matt. 18:9).
Because maggots, the larvae of flies, normally feed upon a corpse’s flesh and are finally done with it (Job 21:26; 24:20; Isa. 14:11) whereas here the unrepentant sinner’s “maggot†is said never to die, and because hell’s fire is said never to be quenched, Guthrie appears to be correct when he states that Jesus’ description here of the unrepentant sinner’s final state is that of “a state of continuous punishment.â€Â14
Matthew 5:22: “Anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell [Äὴν γέενναν Äοῦ ÀÅÃÂÃŒÂ, tÄ“n geennan tou pyros]†(see vv. 29, 30).
Matthew 7:13: “Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction [ἀÀÎλειαν, apÃ…Âleian, in this context means “[eternal] death,†the antithesis of the “life†mentioned in verse 14], and many enter through it.â€Â
Matthew 8:12 (see 22:13): “The subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.â€Â
Because this “weeping and gnashing of teeth,†suggesting as it does conscious anger, pain and woe, exists in hell’s “outer darkness,†this expression too seems to describe a state of continuous punishment.
Matthew 10:15: “I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.†(see also 11:22, 24; Luke 10:12, 14)
The New Testament teaches that there will be degrees of punishment meted out in the day of judgment to the impenitent, depending on such matters as the sinner’s amount of spiritual light and his opportunity to repent and believe. Matthew 10:15 (see Jesus’ “more bearableâ€Â) is one such expression of this teaching. It is difficult, to say the least, to comprehend how this teaching can be adjusted to the annihilationist position if the final outcome of the day of judgment for all the impenitent is the same, namely, annihilation of all, body and soul.
Matthew 10:28: “Do not be afraid of those who can destroy [Äῶν ἀÀοκÄεννÌνÄÉν, tÃ…Ân apoktennontÃ…Ân] the body but cannot kill [ἀÀοκÄεῖναι, apokteinai] the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy [ἀÀολέÃαι, apolesai] both soul and body in hell.†(The Lukan parallel in 12:5 reads: “Fear him who, after [μεÄά, meta, with the accusative] the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell [γέενναν, geennan].â€Â)

Annihilationists argue that Jesus’ terms of destruction here suggest that annihilation is the impenitent’s end. But “destruction†does not have to connote annihilation, that is, the cessation of existence. It can also connote a state of existence, the precise nature of which to be determined by any and all language qualifying that existence. Accordingly, the impenitent can properly be said to be “destroyed†when he has been cast into hell. And the Lukan parallel (Luke 12:5) suggests precisely this connotation for the Matthean notion of destruction.

Matthew 13:42, 50: “They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.†(see Luke 13:28)
Matthew 18:8: “It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fireâ€Â; (18:9)“ … than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.â€Â
Matthew 23:33: “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape from the judgment of hell?â€Â
Matthew 25:41: “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ †(see Rev. 20:10)
Matthew 25:46: “Then they [those on his left] will go away to eternal punishment [κÌλαÃιν αἰÎνιον, kolasin aiÃ…Ânion] but the righteous to eternal life.â€Â
I can find no occurrence of κÌλαÃιÂ, kolasis, where it connotes annihilation; rather, it seems in every instance to mean “punishment.†Ralph E. Powell correctly notes that in this last reference “the same word ‘eternal’ is applied to the duration of the punishment in hell as is used for the duration of the bliss in heaven.â€Â15
Matthew 26:24: “woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.†(See Matt. 18:6; Luke 17:2)
But if Judas’s final end was to be his soul’s annihilation and thus simply nonexistence, how is his final state worse than the nonexistent state which was his prior to his birth?
Luke 16:23, 24, 28: “In hell, where he was in torment [βαÃάνοιÂ, basanois] … ‘I am in agony in this fire.’ … ‘this place of torment [βαÃάνοÅ, basanou].’ †(See also 12:5; 13:27)
While one should not press every detail of our Lord’s parables, still Jesus surely must have been aware that his listeners would understand him here to teach that, following upon physical death, the impenitent sinner endures conscious torment in hell’s flames. That literal and intense suffering is the meaning intended by “torment†and “agony†cannot be denied by any reasonable method of exegesis. As annihilationists commonly have done before, Stott interprets this parable to mean that lost men in the intermediate state between their physical death and resurrection “will come to unimaginably painful realisation of their fate. But [he continues] this is not incompatible … with their final annihilation.â€Â16
I grant that the parable may be describing most immediately the intermediate state, but there is nothing in the parable which suggests that the intermediate state’s “torment†will cease for the lost after their resurrection and judgment. To the contrary, Jesus’ description of the “great gulf†between the blessed and the lost (which is doubtless metaphorical language) as “fixed†(á¼ÂÃĀήÃÂικÄαι, estÄ“riktai, the perfect passive of ÃĀηÃÂίζÉ, stÄ“rizÃ…Â, that is, “has been fixed and continues soâ€Â) implies the unchanging character of the impenitent’s estate in hell.
John 5:28–29: “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come outâ€â€those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.â€Â
John 15:6: “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.â€Â

Demons

Matthew 8:29: “What have we to do with you, O Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us?†(See the references to conscious torment in Luke 16:23, 24, 28.)
It would appear that demons believe that conscious torment, not annihilation, awaits them someday.

Paul

Concerning Paul’s teaching regarding the judgment of unbelievers, Ridderbos writes:
Paul declares the certainty of [punitive judgment on unbelievers and the ungodly] in an unmistakable way, in many respects with words that have been derived from the Old Testament preaching of judgment. He speaks of it as ruin, death, payment with an eternal destruction … ; wrath, indignation, tribulation, anguish. But nowhere is the how, the where, or the how long “treated†as a separate “subject†of Christian doctrine in the epistles of Paul that have been preserved for us.17

Here are Paul’s statements:
Galatians 1:9: “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be condemned [ἀνάθεμα, anathema].†Meaning as it literally does, “offered up [to God],†“anathema†brings the Old Testament ḥerem principle into the New Testament (see 1 Cor. 16:22).
1 Thessalonians 1:10: “[Jesus] rescued us from the coming wrath.â€Â
1 Thessalonians 5:3: “Destruction [ὄλεθÃÂοÂ, olethros] will come upon them suddenly … and they will not escape.â€Â
Annihilationists press the word “destruction†here to mean the cessation of existence, but I would urge, on the basis of the analogy of Scripture, that this is playing with words (see my comments on the next verse). This “destruction,†coming as Paul says it will upon the ungodly suddenly, seems to connote more the general notion of the swift coming upon them of the divine judgment than a specific description of the nature of the end of that judgment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9: “They will be punished with everlasting destruction [ὄλεθÃÂον αἰÎνιον, olethron aiÃ…Ânion] and shut out from the [approving] presence of the Lord.â€Â
This is the only passage in the Pauline corpus where αἰÎνιοÂ, aiÃ…Ânios, is explicitly attached to ὄλεθÃÂοÂ, olethros. Vos makes some very telling comments on this expression:
This is the statement most frequently depended upon to tone down the principle of two-sided eternal retribution traditionally ascribed to the Apostle. It not being feasible to modify the eschatologically-constant value of “aionios,†the attack has centered upon the noun or nouns to which the adjective is attached. “Olethros†and “apoleia†have been given the sense of annihilation.… As concerns the statement in 2 Thess. no one can deny that it posits a strong contrast between the destiny of believers and the end of their persecutors. Only, the question arises, whether the thought of annihilation is fitted to serve as the evil opposite pole in a contrast so sharply stressed by Paul. It will have to be remembered at the outset that “annihilation†is an extremely abstract idea, too philosophical, in fact, to find a natural place within the limits of the realistic biblical eschatology, least of all, it would seem, in this outburst of vehement indignation against the enemies of the Gospel. Closely looked at it is not a stronger but a weaker concept than that of protracted retribution to threaten with, so that, instead of contributing to the sharpness of the opposition intended, it would to a certain extent obliterate the latter.…
The problem of the relation of “olethros†and “apoleia†to existence or non-existence could be solved without much difficulty, were writers willing to test the Pauline statements by reference to the words of Jesus, because the latter on the one hand uses “apoleia†of the state and Gehenna of the place of eternal destruction and on the other hand combines with these the strongest predicates of unceasing retribution; cp. Matt. v.29; vii.13; Mk. v.29, 30; ix. 43, 44, 46, 48; Lk. xii. 5.… Could Paul in a matter like this have shown less severity than Jesus?18
Vos answers his own question: “In none of [the passages where Paul employs ἀÀÎλεια, apÃ…Âleia] is there noticeable a lack of pathos, rather the opposite.â€Â19 Moreover, to describe the soul’s annihilation in terms of being “shut out from the [approving] presence of the Lord†is a strange phrase, to say the least.
Romans 2:8–9: “For those who … reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger; there will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil.â€Â
The last two descriptions here of the sinner’s end (trouble and distress) do not comport easily with the notion of cessation of existence.
Romans 2:12: “All who sin … will perish.â€Â
Romans 6:21, 23: “[The things you are now ashamed of] result in [physical and spiritual] death … the wages of sin is death.â€Â
Romans 9:22: “Vessels of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction.â€Â
Romans 14:10–12: “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.â€Â
1 Corinthians 3:17: “If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.â€Â
1 Corinthians 16:22: “If anyone does not love the Lordâ€â€a curse [ἀνάθεμα, anathema] be upon him.â€Â
2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.â€Â
Philippians 3:19: “Their [the enemies of the cross of Christ] destiny is destruction.â€Â

James

James declares: “[The tongue is] a fire [which] sets the entire course of life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell†(James 3:6). Note that James does not say that the tongue, “set on fire by hell,†is annihilated by that fire but rather that it becomes itself a “fire,†causing still further damage.

The Author of Hebrews

The author of Hebrews includes among the “elementary teachings†and “foundation†(or “fundamentalâ€Â) doctrines of the Christian faith (the English word, “foundation,†the translation of θεμέλιον, themelion, here, is from the Latin root from which we also derive our word “fundamentalâ€Â) the doctrine of “eternal judgment†(κÃÂίμαÄο αἰÉνίοÅ, krimatos aiÃ…Âniou) (6:2). Of this judgment he writes:
Hebrews 9:27: “Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.â€Â
Note that this verse clearly states that men do survive the experience of physical death, after which they stand before God in judgment.
Hebrews 10:26–27: “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.†(see vv. 28–31)

Annihilationists must place a construction on these words that is not in keeping with the analogy of Scripture.
Hebrews 10:39: “But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed.â€Â
Hebrews 12:29: “Our God is a consuming fire.â€Â
Peter
2 Peter 2:4: “in chains of blackness, consigning [them] to Tar±Ã¡Â¿â€“ ζÃŒÆοÅ ÄαÃÂÄαÃÂÎÃαÂ, seirais zophou tartarÃ…Âsas].â€Â
Tartarus is a classical word for the place of eternal punishment.

Jude

Jude 7: “[The cities of the plain] serve as an example of those who suffer the justice of eternal fire.â€Â

John

In addition to the texts already cited in Revelation, note the following words and phrases in John’s Gospel: “perish†[ἀÀÌληÄαι, apolÄ“tai] (John 3:16), “stands condemned already†(3:18), and “God’s wrath remains [μένει, menei] on him†(3:36). Then John informs us in Revelation 19:20, regarding the destiny of the eschatological beast and the false prophet, that they “were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with brimstone.â€Â
Of Satan himself, John states:
Revelation 20:10: “The devil, who deceived [the nations], was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.â€Â
Stott argues here that, since the beast and the false prophet “are not individual people but symbols of the world in its varied hostility to God†(with which view I am in essential agreement), as symbols they “cannot experience pain.â€Â20 This seems to me to be a desperate attempt to explain away the plain import of the passage. Surely the devil is a person, and if the beast and false prophet are symbols, surely they represent in some sense people hostile to God, about whom John declares, “They will be tormented [βαÃανιÃθήÃονÄαι, basanisthÄ“sontai] day and night for ever and ever.â€Â
Finally, John describes the last judgment in the following words:
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12–15)
The fact that at the final judgment each person will be judged according to what he has done implies that degrees of punishment will be meted out by the Judge of all the earth, who will do right by all (Gen. 18:25). This passage also implies that the same destiny awaits the impenitent that awaits the devil, the beast, and the false prophet, namely, torment day and night for ever and ever.
I must conclude from this survey of biblical passages dealing with hell that the only natural meaning of these several texts, interpreted both individually and collectively, is that the retributive infliction of which they speak is unending conscious torment for the impenitent. If these affirmations speak only of the soul’s annihilation, none of them intending to teach that the unrepentant sinner consciously suffers eternal torment after the final judgment, then we must conclude that a large majority of the church’s scholars for twenty centuries have known little about biblical hermeneutics and have failed to do proper exegesis.

cont
 
THE SCRIPTURAL IMAGERY

Stott’s second argument is that the imagery of hell as eternal fire suggests annihilation since “the main function of fire is not to cause pain, but to secure destruction.â€Â21 It is true that hell is characterized in Scripture primarily in terms of fire. But it goes beyond the evidence to conclude from this fact, as Stott does, that “our expectation [of the effects of this ‘fire’]†would be the consummation or destruction of the impenitent. Leon Morris concurs:
Against the strong body of NT teaching that there is a continuing punishment of sin we cannot put one saying which speaks plainly of an end to the punishment of the finally impenitent. Those who look for a different teaching in the NT must point to possible inferences and alternative explanations.22
If the New Testament descriptions of hell are to be taken as images at all (and some details are probably to be so construed), then just as any earthly calamity is always more horrible than a word picture can depict it, surely we should understand the realities these biblical passages seek to represent to be moreâ€â€not lessâ€â€horrible than their word depictions.

SCRIPTURAL DIVINE JUSTICE

Assuming quite properly that scriptural justice insists that the penalty must be commensurate with the evil done, Stott then draws from this what in my opinion is a non sequitur, namely, that a serious disproportion incompatible with justice would exist between sins consciously committed in earth history and torment consciously experienced throughout eternity. On this ground God could not even annihilate the sinner for sins “committed in time†since annihilation is certainly eternal in duration.
Moreover, if Stott’s argument is sound, then the justice in God’s retribution against a whole host of what most people would view as rather insignificant sins recorded in Scripture is also highly questionable. To illustrate what I mean here, consider God’s turning Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt because she glanced back at Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen. 19:26), God’s killing Nadab and Abihu for an irregularity in their priestly duties (Lev. 10:1–2), God’s commanding an unnamed man to be stoned to death because he picked up some sticks on the Sabbath (Num. 15:32–36), God’s disqualification of Moses entering the promised land because he struck the rock twice rather than speaking to it (Num. 20:11), God’s commanding Achan’s entire family to be executed because Achan stole something that God had said he wanted (Josh. 7:11, 25), God’s killing of Uzziah because he steadied the Ark with his hand (2 Sam. 6:6–7), and his striking down of Ananias and Sapphira for lying to Peter (Acts 5:1–10). But beyond debate, the greatest example of “injustice†from the world’s perspective is God’s inflicting the entire human race with physical death and condemnation because Adam ate a piece of fruit forbidden him (Gen. 3:5–6; Rom. 5:12–19). The world’s justice systems would conclude that in not one of these instances did the divine reaction fit the crime, that these are all only “little sins,†if sins at all, hardly deserving the severe retribution God meted out against their perpetrators.
But are these “little sinsâ€Â? The fact that Stott wants to stressâ€â€that men commit such sins in time and not in eternity is irrelevant to the nature and extent of their punishment. The only relevant fact, as David saw, is that such sinsâ€â€indeed, all sinâ€â€are transgressions of the law of God: “Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight†(Ps. 51:4). Because all sin is finally against God, there is infinite demerit about the “tiniest†sin. Every sin then deserves God’s wrath and curse, for the just and holy character of God demands that every sin should receive its just retribution. Thomas Aquinas notes:
The magnitude of the punishment matches the magnitude of the sin.… Now a sin that is against God is infinite; the higher the person against whom it is committed, the graver the sinâ€â€it is more criminal to strike a head of state than a private citizenâ€â€and God is of infinite greatness. Therefore an infinite punishment is deserved for a sin committed against him.23
God has certainly given evidence throughout the Old Testament that he will inflict the sinner with conscious temporal miseries (see the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt; the horrible threats of Lev. 26:14–39; Deut. 28:15–68; Hab. 1:5–11; and Mal. 4:1–6). Of this there can be no doubt. If he has made it known by subsequent New Testament revelation that final justice is served only by the conscious eternal torment of the impenitentâ€â€whose impenitence, we are informed, also continues throughout eternity (since true repentance, which is a gift of God, will not be granted; see Rev. 16:11, 21)â€â€then the creature must acquiesce in his wise and just judgment.

SCRIPTURAL UNIVERSALISM

Stott is not a soteric universalist. He is persuaded that the biblical doctrine of the final judgment which involves “a separation [among men] into two opposite but equally eternal destinies†is too deeply embedded in Scripture to be controverted.24 One example of this conviction on his part is his total rejection of Pope John Paul II’s statement: “Manâ€â€every man without exception whateverâ€â€has been redeemed by Christ, and … with manâ€â€with each man without any exception whateverâ€â€Christ is in a way united, even when man is unaware of it.â€Â25 Nevertheless, Stott suggests that “the apparently universalistic texts†(Eph. 1:10; Col. 1:20; Phil. 2:10–11; 1 Cor. 15:28) are easier to reconcile with the awful realities of hell if hell means the destruction of the impenitent and not their continuing rebellion against God and God’s corresponding continuing infliction of punishment upon them.26
The universalist will not be convinced by Stott’s reasoning. He will argue that a judgment which eventuates in even the annihilation of one man equally overthrows the import of these universalistic passages. J. A. T. Robinson’s words illustrate the universalist’s concern:
Christ, in Origen’s old words, remains on the Cross so long as one sinner remains in hell. That is not speculation: it is a statement grounded in the very necessity of God’s nature. In a universe of love there can be no heaven which tolerates a chamber of horrors, no hell for any which does not at the same time make it hell for God.27
I am persuaded that the universalist is more consistent here than Stott, for once Stott brings these “apparently universalistic texts†into the debate as part of his argument for annihilation, he can find no exegetical warrant in them for stopping short of the universalist’s deduction of the final salvation of all.
I would urge that the doctrine of hell, as historically understood and propounded, is not an infringement upon the notion of God’s final victory over evil, nor is it an infringement upon his final joy. Victory over an enemy may be manifested in more ways than one. An enemy’s total destruction is one of these ways, to be sure. But his deserved and permanent incarceration at hard labor is equally a manifestation of victory over an enemy and could equally fall out to the praise of the victor’s justice. In the case of God and of his Christ, faced as they will be at the judgment with impenitent people guilty of sins of infinite disvalue, the sinner’s eternal incarceration in hell will not infringe upon the final divine victory over evil but will in stark lines exhibit the divine triumph over sin. I concur with James I. Packer’s judgment that “the holy God of the Bible is praised no less for establishing righteousness by retributively punishing wrongdoers (Rev. 19:1–5) than for the triumph of his grace (Rev. 19:6–10) [and] it cannot be said of God that expressing his holiness in deserved retribution mars his joy.â€Â28
I must conclude that the doctrines of the final judgment and of hell for the impenitent and the unbeliever are among the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith (see Westminster Confession of Faith, XXXII/i; XXXIII/ii) and that conscious eternal torment awaits the unrepentant sinner. These things are spoken of clearly and plainly in the New Testament. Furthermore, if Christ bore my curse and died my death at Calvary, and if my “eternal punishment†would have been my final and total annihilation, body and soul (a bizarre thing metaphysically even to contemplate), then the annihilationist must be prepared to declare that Christ experienced, body and soul, at least for a time my annihilation, that is to say, nonexistence, a position far more difficult to explicate and to defend than the traditional view that contends that he consciously bore the suffering and separation from God which my sins made me liable to. I would even urge, if the final state of the unrepentant sinner is nonexistence, that we should stop talking about man’s need for the work of Christ in any urgent sense, for if there is no hell, construed as eternal conscious torment, awaiting the unrepentant sinner, then there is no urgent need for Christ’s work, the doctrines of grace, the church as the redemptive community in the world, and the incalculable personal sacrifices that individual Christians and Christian missionaries make to carry the gospel to the ends of the earth. Powell rightly states: “Rejection or neglect of this doctrine will have dire effects upon the true health and mission of the church.â€Â29
It is just because the Apocalypse takes the fact of an eternal hell seriously that it concludes with the Spirit and the church urging any and all who are thirsty to come and to take the free gift of the water of life (Rev. 22:17). Students of John’s Apocalypse have not been sufficiently touched by their study of the book if they have not been moved to take more seriously the evangelization of a world which is on a collision course with God’s wrath.

THE NON-NECESSITY OF CONSCIOUS FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST FOR FINAL SALVATION

Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common [nonsaving] operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested. (Westminster Confession of Faith, X/iv)
A third disturbing trend within modern evangelicalism in the area of eschatology is the notion that it is not necessary for people to hear about Christ and consciously to put their faith in him in order to be saved.30 There was a time in the not-too-distant past when evangelical leaders were in agreement regarding the eternal destiny of the unevangelized. The common view was that people outside of personal faith in Christ are lost, and this belief was one of the main motives driving the entire evangelical missionary enterprise. Accordingly, it was common to evangelical language (one could hear it on all sides) to speak of a “lost and dying world†or an “unsaved world.†But today increasing numbers of evangelical spokespersons are stating either that this simply is not so or that the Bible is not clear on these matters.
As an example of the former position, Clark H. Pinnock declares: “We do not need to think of the church as the ark of salvation, leaving everyone else in hell; we can rather think of it as the chosen witness to the fullness of salvation that has come into the world through Jesus.â€Â31 Accordingly, he embraces the notion that people from other religions will be saved by Christ without knowing Christ.32
Others, while acknowledging that Christ is and always will be man’s only Savior, argue that he saves some who have never heard of him through the revelation which is available to them in nature. According to Millard Erickson (a cautious advocate of this position), the essential elements in this “gospel message†in nature are
1) The belief in one good powerful God. 2) The belief that he (man) owes this God perfect obedience to his law. 3) The consciousness that he does not meet this standard, and therefore is guilty and condemned. 4) The realization that nothing he can offer God can compensate him (or atone) for this sin and guilt. 5) The belief that God is merciful, and will forgive and accept those who cast themselves on his mercy.33
“May it not be,†Erickson asks, “that if a man believes and acts on this set of tenets he is redemptively related to God and receives the benefits of Christ’s death, whether he consciously knows and understands the details of that provision or not?â€Â34
A spokesman for the agnostic position is John Stott. Stott believes that all men outside of Christ are lost, but with regard to the question of the final annihilation (Stott’s view of “eternal punishmentâ€Â) of those who have never heard of Christ, he writes: “I believe the most Christian stance is to remain agnostic on this question.… The fact is that God, alongside the most solemn warnings about our responsibility to respond to the gospel, has not revealed how he will deal with those who have never heard it.â€Â35 Timothy Phillips, Aida Besancon Spencer, and Tite Tienou likewise assume an agnostic stance here, stating they “prefer to leave the matter in the hands of God.â€Â36
These are cited as representative speakers for this “new trend†in order to provide a sampling of what is now being urged by some at the highest levels of academic evangelicalism. But can people be saved through natural revelation? Are the Scriptures silent about the destiny of those who do not hear about and put their trust in Christ? I would reply to both questions in the negative and will give my reasons for these convictions.

General Revelation and Universal Condemnation

According to Holy Scripture, all men outside of Christ are lost in sinâ€â€Jews and Gentiles, “good†men and “bad†men, the pagans in the Far East and the pagans in the West. All sinned in Adam and are continually falling short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). The wages of their sin is death (Rom. 6:23). In spite of the fact that all peoples and cultures receive general revelation and hence possess an awareness both of God’s eternal power and divine nature (Rom. 1:19–20) and of sins’s deserts (Rom. 1:32), they neither glorify God as God nor are they thankful to him (Rom. 1:21), but pervert their knowledge of him into unspeakable forms of idolatry (Rom. 1:23). The peoples of this world love darkness and hate the light of Christ’s gospel because their deeds are evil (John 3:19–20). Far from saving the world, general revelation becomes the ground of God’s just condemnation of the world. God views the whole world as “under sinâ€Â: “There is no one righteous, not even one†(Rom. 3:9–10). All are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). All are already under condemnation (Rom. 3:19). All are alienated from the life of God (Eph. 4:18), ignorant of the truth of God (Rom. 1:25), hostile to the law of God (Rom. 8:7), disobedient to the will of God (Titus 3:3), and subject to the wrath of God (John 3:19).
These statements include the peoples of the world who have never heard the gospel and who have never had a chance to accept or reject Christ. From the biblical perspective there is really no such thing as the “noble savage,†Rahner’s “anonymous Christian,†or the “holy pagan.†Such concepts exist only in the minds of unbelieving anthropologists and sociologists and certain Catholic and evangelical inclusivists. Men are lost and under God’s judgment, not only because they may have heard about and then rejected Christ at some point in their lives, but also (and more primarily) because they are sinners by nature (they sinned “in Adamâ€Â) and sinners by practice, and accordingly they have failed to live in accordance with the light of law which they possess. They have sinned against God’s revelation without, the works of his law written on the heart within, and their accusing conscience (Rom. 2:14–15).
Inclusivism and the Necessity of Saving Faith in Christ
The Scriptures teach the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation. Jesus Christ declared: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me†(John 14:6). He also taught that “repentance and forgiveness of sins should be preached in his name to all nations†(Luke 24:46–47). Then Peter emphatically states: “Salvation is found in no one else [not Buddha, not Mohammed, not even Moses], for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved†(Acts 4:12). John states emphatically: “No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also†(1 John 2:23), and “He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life†(1 John 5:12). And Paul declares with equal clarity: “through the obedience of the one man [Jesus Christ] the many will be made righteous†(Rom. 5:19b), and “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus†(1 Tim. 2:5). He also writes:

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [in the context, the Lord Jesus Christ] will be saved.†How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!†(Rom. 10:13–15)
The clear implication of this series of questions is that if missionaries are not sent to preach to those who have not heard about Christ in order that they may believe in him, the unevangelized will not and cannot be saved.
Paul also expressly declared with regard to the destiny of men who do not trust Christ: “All who sin apart from the law will also perish [note: Paul does not say, “can or will be forgivenâ€Â] apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law†(Rom. 2:12). John Murray comments here:
The contrast is … between those who were outside the pale of special revelation and those who were within.
With reference to the former the apostle’s teaching is to the following effect: (1) Specially revealed law is not the precondition of sinâ€â€Ã¢â‚¬Âas many as have sinned without the lawâ€Â. (2) Because such are sinners they will perish. The perishing referred to can be none other than that defined in the preceding verses as consisting in the infliction of God’s wrath and indignation and endurance of tribulation and anguish in contrast with the glory, honour, incorruption, and peace bestowed upon the heirs of eternal life. (3) In suffering this perdition they will not be judged according to a law which they did not have, namely, specially revealed lawâ€â€they “shall also perish without the law.â€Â37
We should finally note that the fourteen-point judicial indictment inclusive of and applicable to the entire human race in Romans 3:9–20 establishes that all humansâ€â€Jew and Gentileâ€â€are under the power of sin and will be speechless before the judgment bar of God. Therefore the death of Christ is set forth by Paul in the following verses as the answer to this universal problem of sin. The cross is not one among many ways God deals with sin. It is the only basis on which God justifies any sinner.
In sum, the atoning work of Christ is not merely for Jews or merely for one nation or tribe or language. It is the one and only way for anyone to come into fellowship with God. Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection and the need for personal faith in him stand on the “cutting edge†of the mission message in the book of Acts since the work of Christ is the only basis for salvation. And conscious personal faith in him is everywhere declared as essential to a person’s salvation (Rom. 3:26).
Inclusivists question whether conscious faith in Jesus is always essential to salvation. Why do they do this? For three reasons primarily. First, because they believe that Jews in the Old Testament were saved apart from conscious faith in Jesus, that is to say, they had only the “form†of the Christian gospel without its New Testament “content.†But this is a false premise, as I demonstrated in part three, chapter fourteen, when I dealt with the unity of the covenant of grace. There I showed that while it is true that the elect of the Old Testament would not have known myriads of details about the Christ of the New (such as the specific time of his coming or the name of his mother), they did understand that the Messiah would die as their substitute and that they had to place their trust in his anticipated death work for them for their salvation.
Second, these inclusivists rely upon what they view as the biblical tradition of “holy pagans†who were saved though they held to religious faiths other that Yahwism and Christianity. They refer here to such people as Melchizedek, Job, the Midianite priest Jethro, Naaman the Syrian, the eastern Magi, and the Roman centurion Cornelius. But these people were hardly “holy pagans.†Melchizedek was a priest of the “most high God, owner of heaven and earth,†whom Abraham identifies as Yahweh (Gen. 14:22). Melchizedek was certainly a worshiper of Yahweh, as was Job (Job 1:21), and as Jethro (Exod. 18:8–12) and Naaman (2 Kings 5:15–18) came to be. And while the Magi were probably pagan astrologers before their observance in the east of Messiah’s “special star,†from that point on they gave themselves to the task of finding the “king of the Jews†and worshiping him (Matt. 2:2, 10–12). In each of these instances we may be sure that the Holy Spirit instructed these elect Old Testament saints and directed them to trust the promised Messiah.
Cornelius, described by Pinnock as “the pagan saint par excellence of the New Testament,â€Â38 is hailed as the prime example of a man who was saved apart from faith in Christ, to whom Peter was sent to inform him that he was forgiven and saved.39 Does not God say of this “devout [εá½ÂÃεβὴÂ, eusebÄ“s] and God-fearing man†who “gave generously to those in need and who prayed to God regularly†(Acts 10:2) that he had made him “clean†(10:15)? And does not Peter plainly state that “God does not show favoritism but accepts men in every nation who fear him and do what is right†(10:34–35)?
But these statements should not be taken to mean that Cornelius was a saved man. I say this for the following reasons:
1. To the equally “devout [εá½ÂλαβεῖÂ, eulabÄ“s] men†of Acts 2:5 Peter declared that they had to repent if they were to receive the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38; see also 3:19; 13:38–39). So being “devout†in the sense in which Luke employs his terms in these passages should not be construed to mean that those described by them were saved.
2. Peter later states that it was by means of the message that he brought to Cornelius, namely, that “everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name†(see 10:43), that Cornelius was saved (see Peter’s “shall be saved,†ÃƒÉθήÃῃ, sÃ…ÂthÄ“sÄ“, future indicative passive; Acts 11:14).
3. The Jewish Christians of Jerusalem responded to Peter’s explanation by saying, “Then God has even granted the Gentiles repentance unto life†(Acts 11:18), this last expression meaning that repentance leads to eternal life and that until Gentiles repent and trust Christ they do not have eternal life.
Clearly, then, before Peter came and preached Christ to him, Cornelius was not saved. But as surely as this is so, it is equally certain that Cornelius was “clean†in the sense that he was not to be viewed any longer as ceremonially “taboo†but as a legitimate candidate for evangelization.40 This is clearly Peter’s own interpretation of his “great sheet†vision in Acts 10:28–29, where we read: “[Peter] said to them: ‘You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me [by the vision God had given him] that I should not call any man [ceremonially] impure or unclean [i.e., an “untouchableâ€Â]. So when I was sent for, I came without raising an objection.†One may legitimately say that the entire event was recorded not only to recount the conversion of Cornelius but also to record the “conversion†of Peter to Gentile evangelism.
Cornelius was also “accepted†(δεκÄὸÂ, dektos) by God (this “accepted†is not the same thing as the earlier “clean,†for the “clean†are everyone everywhere, whereas the “accepted†are said to be in every nation) in the sense that, since Cornelius was seeking God sincerely and genuinely in God’s providence and at the Spirit’s prompting, God took steps to get the gospel to him. In sum, he was accepted in the sense that he was one of God’s elect found throughout the world and not just within the nation of Israel.Although he is not as explicit as I that the “accepted†here are God’s elect in every nation whom God will reach with the gospel, Everett F. Harrison agrees that Cornelius was not saved prior to Peter’s preaching to him:

God is prepared to receive those “in every nation†who fear him and work righteousness, the very things which are noted about Cornelius (10:2; see Mt 6:1–2). The meaning [of Peter’s statement in 10:34–35] is not that such persons are thereby saved (see Acts 11:14) but rather are suitable candidates for salvation. Such preparation betokens a spiritual earnestness which will result in faith as the Gospel is heard and received.41
Cornelius is representative then, not of people who can and are saved apart from faith in Christ (there are none!), but of the unsaved elect in every nation throughout the world who under the Spirit’s prompting are “seeking God in an extraordinary way,â€Â42 that is, who in God’s gracious providence are drawn by his cords of electilove to realize (1) that they as desperate sinners must meet someday the one living and holy God with whom all men have to do, and (2) that they are unable to save themselves, and who therefore pray day and night that God in his mercy will somehow find them acceptable in his sight. These God saves through the mission enterprise by getting the good news of Jesus Christ to them, just as he arranged for the gospel to be taken by Peter to Cornelius.
Third (and the previous two reasons grow out of this more fundamental error), evangelical inclusivists believe that “people are saved by faith, not by the content of their theology.â€Â43 Pinnock declares:
Faith in God is what saves, not possessing certain minimum information.… A person is saved by faith, even if the content of faith is deficient.… The issue God cares about is the direction of the heart, not the content of theology.44
But surely saving faith must be directed to the true God, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and not to an idolatrous or pagan substitute for him. And the content of saving faith must have Christ at its center. Otherwise, such faith is empty and of no value. Moreover, this “faith principle†per se, originating as these Arminian thinkers contend in man’s determination and will, constitutes a sinful work that cannot save and is everywhere condemned by Scripture, Faith per se does not and cannot save. Speaking precisely, it is not even faith in Jesus Christ that saves. It is Jesus Christ who saves the sinner who through faith rests in him.
The Bible intends Christians to understand that the nations are lost, unsaved, perishing without a knowledge of Christ. They are under divine condemnation, not just because they have never heard of Christ but more primarily because they are sinners by nature and sinners by practice. Christians should pray that God will melt their own hearts and remove all that would blind their eyes that they may see the world as it really isâ€â€a world of men on the broad road leading to eternal flame! And then they should pray that God will empower them and send them to that world that is threatened with eternal fire with the message of redeeming love.

Laus Deo!

Soli Deo Gloria!

------ Robert Reymond, A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith
cont
 
ftnotes
1 Donald Guthrie, New Testament Theology (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1970), 817.
2 John Stott’s comment on this passage in David L. Edwards and John Stott, Evangelical Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue (Downers Grove, Ill.: InterVarsity Press, 1988), 316, that “it is the smoke (evidence that fire has done its work) which ‘rises for ever and ever’ †is somewhat facile, for while it is true that it is the smoke that is said to rise, it is also true that it is the smoke of their torment that rises forever and ever. It is also said of these people that they experience “no rest day or nightâ€Ââ€â€an expression hardly descriptive of a state of nonexistence.
3 See Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 312–20. Clark H. Pinnock, in his “The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent,†Criswell Theological Review 4, no. 2 (1990): 246–47, is unrestrained in his outright rejection of the doctrine of hell as eternal conscious torment:
I consider the concept of hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition which needs to be changed. How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself.… Surely the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is no fiend; torturing people without end is not what our God does.
Millard J. Erickson in his The Evangelical Mind and Heart (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1993), 152, cautions Pinnock to be more temperate:
If … one is going to describe sending persons to endless punishment as “cruelty and vindictiveness,†and a God who would do so as “more nearly like Satan than God,†and “a bloodthirsty monster who maintains an everlasting Auschwitz,†he had better be very certain he is correct. For if he is wrong, he is guilty of blasphemy. A wiser course of action would be restraint in one’s statements, just in case he might be wrong.
See my review article on Stott’s position, “Dr. John Stott on Hell,†Presbuterion, 16, no. 1 (1990): 41–59. See also Robert A. Peterson, “A Traditionalist Response to John Stott’s Arguments for Annihilation,†Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 37, no. 4 (1994): 553–68.
4 Guthrie, New Testament Theology, 892; see his entire discussion of hell, 887–92.
5 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 316.
6 Ibid., 316.
7 Ibid., 318.
8 Ibid., 319.
9 J. A. Motyer, “Destruction,†Baker’s Dictionary of Theology (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1960), 260.
10 Sodom’s destruction is significant for it is often cited later as a warning of the divine judgment that will befall those who sin against God (Deut. 29:23; Isa. 1:9, 10; Jer. 23:14; 49:18; Lam. 4:6; Amos 4:11; Zeph. 2:9; Matt. 10:15; Luke 17:29; Rom. 9:29; Rev. 11:8). Particularly instructive are the two references to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah found in 2 Peter 2:6–9 and Jude 7.
11 Meredith G. Kline, Treaty of the Great King (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1963), 68, emphasis supplied; see also Geerhardus Vos, Biblical Theology (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1949), 141, 143.
12 F. Delitzsch, The Prophecies of Isaiah (1877 trans.; reprint, Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans), 2:517.
13 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 316.
14 Guthrie, New Testament Theology, 888.
15 Ralph E. Powell, “Hell,†Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1988), 1:954.
16 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 317–18.
17 Ridderbos, Paul, 554.
18 Vos, Pauline Eschatology, 294.
19 Ibid., 296, fn. 12.
20 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 318.
21 Ibid., 316.
22 Leon Morris, “Eternal Punishment,†Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, ed. Walter A. Elwell (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1984), 370–71.
23 Thomas Aquinas, Summa theologica, Ia2ae. 87, 4.
24 The New Testament alone teaches the ultimate bifurcation of human destiny in more than fifty passages (Matt 7:22, 23; 12:41, 42; 13:40–43; 24:51; 25:41–46; Mark 12:9; Luke 13:25–30; 16:19–28; 21:36; John 5:22–30; 12:47, 48; 15:6; 22–25; 16:8–11; Acts 17:31; 24:25; Rom 1:32; 2:2, 3, 5; 5:16, 18; 14:10; 1 Cor 5:13; 2 Cor 5:10; Gal 6:7; 1 Thes 4:6; 5:1–10; 2 Thes 1:5–10; 2:3–12; 2 Tim 4:1; Heb 4:12; 13; 6:4–8; 10:26–31; James 2:13; 4:12; 1 Pet 2:7, 8, 23; 3:12; 4:17, 18; 2 Pet 2:3–10; 3:7; 1 John 3:7, 8; Jude 4–6, 13, 15; Rev 14:7, 9–11, 17–20; 15:1; 16; 19:1–3, 11–21; 20:11–15; 22:15).
25 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 319, 325. For Pope John Paul II’s statement, see the papal encyclical Redemptor Hominis (1979), para. 14.
26 Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 319.
27 J. A. T. Robinson, In the End God (New York: Harper, 1968), 133.
28 James I. Packer, “Is Hell Out of Vogue?†Action (Sept.–Oct. 1989), 11.
29 Powell, “Hell,†1:955. Several fine works have been published in recent years upholding the historic teaching on hell as a place of eternal conscious torment, among them being Robert A. Peterson, Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment (Phillipsburg, N.J.: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1995) and Larry Dixon, The Other Side of the Good News: Confronting the Contemporary Challenges to Jesus’ Teaching on Hell (Wheaton: BridgePoint, 1992).
30 The Church of Rome has long endorsed this position, stating that those “who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscienceâ€â€those too may achieve eternal salvation†(Lumen gentium, 16; see also Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, 3866–72).
Karl Rahner (1904–1984), a leading Roman Catholic inclusivist who coined the phrase “anonymous Christian,†by which he meant a non-Christian who gains salvation through faith, hope, and love by the grace of Christ which is mediated imperfectly through his or her own non-Christian religion, writes in his Theological Investigations (New York: Seabury, 1966), 1:131, 132:
Christianity does not simply confront the member of an extra-Christian religion as a mere non–Christian but as someone who can and must already be regarded in this or that respect as an anonymous Christian.… The proclamation of the Gospel does not simply turn someone absolutely abandoned by God and Christ into a Christian, but turns an anonymous Christian into someone who now also knows about his Christian belief in the depths of his grace-endowed being by objective reflection and in the profession which is given a social form in the Church.
If Rahner is correct, the world should be seeing large numbers of these gospel-enlightened “anonymous Christians†moving out of their religions and into Christianity because of the spread of the gospel throughout the world via the mass media. But there is little evidence that this is happening. According to John, far from being already “saved†when the gospel comes to them, non-Christians are “already†condemned because they do not have faith in Christ (John 3:18).
31 Clark H. Pinnock, “Acts 4:12â€â€No Other Name Under Heaven,†in Through No Fault of Their Own, ed. William V. Crockett and James G. Sigountos (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1991), 113. He contends for this position more fully in his A Wideness in God’s Mercy (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 1992).
Arguing the case for classic salvific exclusivism, Ronald H. Nash, Is Jesus the Only Savior? (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 1994), provides a thorough exposition and refutation of both John Hick’s religious pluralism and Pinnock’s and Sanders’s soteric inclusivism.
32 In his “Toward an Evangelical Theology of Religions,†Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 30, no. 3 (1990): 359–68, Pinnock argues for what he calls the “universality axiom†(God’s saving grace is for the entire race, and he desires to save the entire race) and the “particularity axiom†(God’s saving grace comes only through Jesus).
33 Millard Erickson, “Hope for Those Who Haven’t Heard? Yes, but … ,†Evangelical Missions Quarterly, 11, no. 2 (1975), 124.
34 Erickson, “Hope for Those Who Haven’t Heard?,†125. John Sanders, a Wesleyan thinker, in his No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Eerdmans, 1992) also supports this hope, which he terms “inclusivism,†urging that people who never hear about Christ can be saved by exercising saving trust in God as revealed to them by general revelation.
35 John Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 327.
36 See Through No Fault of Their Own, 259, fn. 3.
37 John Murray, Romans, 1:70.
38 Pinnock, A Wideness in Godâ€â„Mercy, 165.
39 Sanders in No Other Name, 254, writes: “Cornelius was already a saved believer before Peter arrived but he was not a Christian believer.â€Â
40 In Old Testament times God had “let all the nations go their own way†(Acts 14:16) as he prepared Israel to be the repository of special revelation and the racial originator of the Messiah, and he had “overlooked the nations’ ignorance†(Acts 17:23) in the sense that he had taken no direct steps to reach them savingly. But now that Christ has come God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and to put their faith in Christ.
41 Everett F. Harrison, Acts: The Expanding Church (Chicago: Moody, 1975), 172.
42 John Piper, Let the Nations Be Glad (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1993), 146.
43 Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, 157.
44 Ibid., 158."


for your edification,

blessings,
ken
 
Dave Slayer said:
If there is no hell then why do we need forgiveness? If all we do is die and go in the ground and rot, we might as well live like devils, right?
Because weve sinned against God, and there is still a judgment in which we will be repaid for all weve done

just because "hell" and "punishment" is not an everlasting concept as in the popular augustine theology, does not mean that we should just not care about God

we should follow God because of what he did on the cross and because we love him, not because if we dont we suffer forever
 
Biblical words translated as "Hell"

Sheol
In the King James Bible, the Old Testament term Sheol is translated as "Hell" 31 times. Sheol is also translated as "the pit" three times.
Modern translations, however, do not translate Sheol as "Hell" at all, instead rendering it "the grave," "the pit," or "death."

Gehenna
In the New Testament, both early KJV and modern translations often translate Gehenna as "Hell." Young's Literal Translation is one notable exception, simply using "Gehenna", which was in fact a geographic location just outside Jerusalem (the Valley of Hinnom).

Tartarus
Appearing only in II Peter 2:4 in the New Testament, both early and modern translations often translate Tartarus as "Hell." Again, Young's Literal Translation is an exception, using "Tartarus".

Hades
Hades is the Greek word traditionally used for the Hebrew word Sheol in such works as the Septuagint, the Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible. Like other first-century Jews literate in Greek, Christian writers of the New Testament followed this use. While earlier translations of the KJV most often translated Hades as "hell", modern translations use the transliteration "Hades" or render the word as "the grave" in most contexts.

Abaddon
The Hebrew word Abaddon, meaning "destruction",and is sometimes used as a synonym of Hell.

Infernus
The Latin word infernus means "being underneath" and is often translated as "Hell".

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Gehenna) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
Now if death and distruction are done away with in the lake of fire, then how can there be life in Hell. After the final judgement there will be no more death or distruction.
 
The word Punished is given the interpretation of "TORTURE." Yahwah has no desire to torture living being. In the Pagan religion the Devil tortures people in Hell.
 
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.
 
Lewis W said:
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.
In the final judgemnt Yahwah brings everyone back to life. When the dammed learn of their fate, that is when there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yahwah will take their lives from them, and they will me no more, forever.
 
mdo757 said:
Lewis W said:
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.
In the final judgemnt Yahwah brings everyone back to life. When the dammed learn of their fate, that is when there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yahwah will take their lives from them, and they will me no more, forever.

this is not true, as is shown above....

one excerpt of which is

"Here are Paul’s statements:
Galatians 1:9: “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be condemned [ἀνάθεμα, anathema].†Meaning as it literally does, “offered up [to God],†“anathema†brings the Old Testament ḥerem principle into the New Testament (see 1 Cor. 16:22).
1 Thessalonians 1:10: “[Jesus] rescued us from the coming wrath.â€Â
1 Thessalonians 5:3: “Destruction [ὄλεθÃÂοÂ, olethros] will come upon them suddenly … and they will not escape.â€Â
Annihilationists press the word “destruction†here to mean the cessation of existence, but I would urge, on the basis of the analogy of Scripture, that this is playing with words (see my comments on the next verse). This “destruction,†coming as Paul says it will upon the ungodly suddenly, seems to connote more the general notion of the swift coming upon them of the divine judgment than a specific description of the nature of the end of that judgment.
2 Thessalonians 1:9: “They will be punished with everlasting destruction [ὄλεθÃÂον αἰÎνιον, olethron aiÃ…Ânion] and shut out from the [approving] presence of the Lord.â€Â
This is the only passage in the Pauline corpus where αἰÎνιοÂ, aiÃ…Ânios, is explicitly attached to ὄλεθÃÂοÂ, olethros. Vos makes some very telling comments on this expression:
This is the statement most frequently depended upon to tone down the principle of two-sided eternal retribution traditionally ascribed to the Apostle. It not being feasible to modify the eschatologically-constant value of “aionios,†the attack has centered upon the noun or nouns to which the adjective is attached. “Olethros†and “apoleia†have been given the sense of annihilation.… As concerns the statement in 2 Thess. no one can deny that it posits a strong contrast between the destiny of believers and the end of their persecutors. Only, the question arises, whether the thought of annihilation is fitted to serve as the evil opposite pole in a contrast so sharply stressed by Paul. It will have to be remembered at the outset that “annihilation†is an extremely abstract idea, too philosophical, in fact, to find a natural place within the limits of the realistic biblical eschatology, least of all, it would seem, in this outburst of vehement indignation against the enemies of the Gospel. Closely looked at it is not a stronger but a weaker concept than that of protracted retribution to threaten with, so that, instead of contributing to the sharpness of the opposition intended, it would to a certain extent obliterate the latter.…
The problem of the relation of “olethros†and “apoleia†to existence or non-existence could be solved without much difficulty, were writers willing to test the Pauline statements by reference to the words of Jesus, because the latter on the one hand uses “apoleia†of the state and Gehenna of the place of eternal destruction and on the other hand combines with these the strongest predicates of unceasing retribution; cp. Matt. v.29; vii.13; Mk. v.29, 30; ix. 43, 44, 46, 48; Lk. xii. 5.… Could Paul in a matter like this have shown less severity than Jesus?18
Vos answers his own question: “In none of [the passages where Paul employs ἀÀÎλεια, apÃ…Âleia] is there noticeable a lack of pathos, rather the opposite.â€Â19 Moreover, to describe the soul’s annihilation in terms of being “shut out from the [approving] presence of the Lord†is a strange phrase, to say the least.
Romans 2:8–9: “For those who … reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger; there will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil.â€Â
The last two descriptions here of the sinner’s end (trouble and distress) do not comport easily with the notion of cessation of existence.
Romans 2:12: “All who sin … will perish.â€Â
Romans 6:21, 23: “[The things you are now ashamed of] result in [physical and spiritual] death … the wages of sin is death.â€Â
Romans 9:22: “Vessels of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction.â€Â
Romans 14:10–12: “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. It is written: ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’ So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.â€Â
1 Corinthians 3:17: “If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy him.â€Â
1 Corinthians 16:22: “Iyone does not love the Lordâ€â€a curse [ἀνάθεμα, anathema] be upon him.â€Â
2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.â€Â
Philippians 3:19: “Their [the enemies of the cross of Christ] destiny is destruction.â€Â

but based on the entire testimony of scripture, conscience eternal torment is the fate of the impenitent... people may not like the doctrine, it may be unpopular in today's pluralistic politically correct culture, but the testimony of the Scriptures teaches truth, and whether it is popular or not is immaterial.

blessings,
ken
 
Lewis W said:
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.

Whoa...I dont think passing judgment is the way to go. I know Christ as my personal savior, and whether eternal punishment exists or not I know my eternal destiny, thank you.

Just because someone doesnt agree with YOUR interpretation of God and the Bible does not mean their going to "Hell". Thats despicable

That is not the love of Christ, im sorry, but its not
 
2 Samuel 14:14 (New International Version)

14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.
 
epistemaniac said:
mdo757 said:
Lewis W said:
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.
In the final judgemnt Yahwah brings everyone back to life. When the dammed learn of their fate, that is when there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yahwah will take their lives from them, and they will me no more, forever.

this is not true, as is shown above....

one excerpt of which is

"Here are Paul’s statements:
Galatians 1:9: “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be condemned [ἀνάθεμα, anathema].†Meaning as it literally does, “offered up [to God],†“anathema†brings the Old Testament ḥerem principle into the New Testament (see 1 Cor. 16:22).
blessings,
ken
Your many word make no particular point. There is indeed an eternal punishment, it's called death. We do not worship a God who tortures people for all eternity, that does not even make sence to a human being. Who could ever worship a God for being more evil than any human can imagine. Hell is a Pagan and Gnostic precept introduced into scripture by men. Hell has never been a part of Judaism, it belongs to the Pagan religion. I would say more about about it being introduced into scripture, but that would be a violation of the forum rules.
 
savagesoto said:
Lewis W said:
To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.

Whoa...I dont think passing judgment is the way to go. I know Christ as my personal savior, and whether eternal punishment exists or not I know my eternal destiny, thank you.

Just because someone doesnt agree with YOUR interpretation of God and the Bible does not mean their going to "Hell". Thats despicable

That is not the love of Christ, im sorry, but its not
There is no passing judgment, I am talking to the unbelievers, and if they don't repent, yes they are going to hell and gnash their teeth.
 
Lewis W said:
savagesoto said:
[quote="Lewis W":2teq7ua0]To all those who don't believe in hell. Just you wait and see, and I will hear you gnashing your teeth.

Whoa...I dont think passing judgment is the way to go. I know Christ as my personal savior, and whether eternal punishment exists or not I know my eternal destiny, thank you.

Just because someone doesnt agree with YOUR interpretation of God and the Bible does not mean their going to "Hell". Thats despicable

That is not the love of Christ, im sorry, but its not
There is no passing judgment, I am talking to the unbelievers, and if they don't repent, yes they are going to hell and gnash their teeth.[/quote:2teq7ua0]
sounded like you were adressing to us here

and yes there will be "gnashing of teeth" but it will be rehabilitative judgment...where God will turn evil doers into good doers...as is the common theme of the Bible and Gods transformation in us THROUGH Christ

we die to our old ways to become a new :yes
 
savagesoto said:


we die to our old ways to become a new :yes

That is a nice thought, however, death of the spirit in the final judgement is a harsh reality. You can not force a person to love you. And we do have free will.
 
mdo757 said:
savagesoto said:


we die to our old ways to become a new :yes

That is a nice thought, however, death of the spirit in the final judgement is a harsh reality. You can not force a person to love you. And we do have free will.

I wasnt talking about forcing...I was talking about punishing evil...a "pruning" of the soul until all that hindered them from accepting Christ in this life is burning away in the lake of fire..and then people will see God in all His glory and will not be able nor want to resist His love and completion.

and we have LIMITED free will...meaning its not really as free as some people think

we have choices but the origins and destines of those choices and their ultimate outcomes are ordained by God...this is pretty clear in the Bible from my perspective
 
mdo757 said:
How do you feel about the religion of Hell from the Pagans and Gnostics being introduced into Christianity? That is why I prefer that my bible be a TRANSLATION and not an INTERPRETATION. The words, Gehenna, grave, and pit, were replaced with the word Hell. The punishment for sin is death of the spirit. That is the second death.

Amen,I could'nt agree more
 
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