Of course this only demonstrates how I understand you to be saying that the mediation ministry of Christ fails. It does not actually reconcile the human race to the Father. At best, you might say that Christ mediation is a theoretical possibility of mediation based upon what we decide as individuals. Of course that is still a failed mediation.
Maybe you should re-read Romans 5 and ask yourself the same question regarding sin and how one man's sin "mediates" for us at the same universal level. Just as there is objective sin, the sin of Adam, there is subjective sin, our own. Paul compares and contrasts them at the same universal level. What is failing is the INDIVIDUAL taking hold of the objective offer of grace made to all men. But it is equally given that sin and redemption is attached to mankind universally.
Romans 3:11 tells us....
"11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God. "
I tire of the misuse of Paul's third chapter of Romans! How many times must I explain this to people who refuse to go to the Psalms Paul is quoting...? If you actually think Paul meant what you claim, you are wrong, because even the Psalmist himself sings a different tune, often in the very same Psalm. Clearly, that is not Paul's intent, to set the Scriptures against itself. The point is that the Jews are in no better condition, since Paul is citing David's attack on evil Jews, who have the law and still don't obey it. They are hardly superior to Gentiles. Chapter 3 is a damning litany against the arrogant Jew.
This is of course repeated in John 6:44
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
I think I would again direct you to the Council of Orange, since I would say nothing less - but I certainly take this to mean something other than you do. Anything that I do towards coming to God is DIRECTED, MOVED, by God Himself. I cannot come to God alone. But it doesn't follow that I am a passive bystander, a puppet that does nothing to say "Yes, Lord, I will do your will".
Francis, when you distort the nature of man, you distort the nature of the atonement.
Yea, I already said that about you... Sounds hollow coming from you with the same old well-worn verses that have constantly been misappropriated to say something they don't say.
In your view, man is not so deep in sin that he cannot respond.
Of course man can respond, but not without God prompting Him. HE IS EXPECTED TO RESPOND... Phil 2:12-13.
Francis, you often get so dramatic when you make weak, even bad points.
You must be joking. I give you over a half dozen cases of God not looking for compensation or the invisible scales of justice to be re-balanced, and that is the best you can do? Rather than actually address the issues, you complain about my drama?
Sounds like you don't have an answer and must save face with such a complaint...
First, I would certainly not deny "unconditional forgiveness.
You do. Most certainly.
Again, you want it both ways and you don't see the illogic of your stance. You say you don't deny it, but don't allow God to have the ability or desire to do act upon it. Apparently, the concept is theoretical... No, for you, God MUST kill His Son for the sake of men, who DEMANDS equal satisfaction. Of course, Mondar has said nothing about WHO God is providing the rebalance for, the "Power" that God must answer to so that "Justice" is served.
God doesn't forgive anyone without the perfect sacrifice, according to your scheme. That's not unconditional forgiveness. It doesn't exist in your scheme.
I would caution you that you are making exegetical mistakes. Parables were intended to express one main point.
In other words, you have nothing to counteract Christ's own Words, so no doubt, I don't understand something so simple as a story that speaks of a father welcoming his sinful son back without retribution... Simply read the parable, Mondar. Clearly, I have addressed the main point, but since it doesn't fit into your scheme, it must be waved away and this "defense" must be invented!
Perhaps you could tell me what the "point" of the Prodigal Son story is, if it is not about unconditional forgiveness...?
I could go on with each parable and put the twist on it that would fit my theology, but it would be painful for me to abuse the scriptures in that way.
Indeed, it would pain me, as well, to see you twist the Scriptures to fit your theology. Just read them for what they are worth. Unconditional forgiveness is offered to men - if only he would truly ask for it.
My statement was that sin has a penalty and I used Romans 6:23 to demonstrate that fact.
Sorry, you didn't demonstrate any fact, Mondar. All you did was cite a verse. You provide the consequences of an action. Where does that verse speak of an active punishment?
The fact that the exact wording of that verse does not have the exact vocabulary you demand has nothing to do with the fact that Romans 6:23 does demonstrate that sin has its wage or penalty. Sin brings death.
So does jumping into boiling water. Is that consequence an active punishment? Do you realize what a punishment is? Paul is merely stating that sin has a consequence. It separates us from God.
Your illustration about the cliff only obscures the issue. It does not illustrate any good points.
I have discovered that whenever I make a point that you don't like, you revert to this utter denial without actually addressing the problem you find in it. It is just simply "obscure" or "wrong" or "dramatic". It's too bad, I had thought you could do better.
The issue is that sin has a penalty and has nothing to do with who walks off a cliff or you pushing me off a cliff.
Oh, the debate team would love you!!! By stating your premise, it proves itself!!! I think it's called "begging the question"...
You have yet to prove that any punishment is necessitated by the verse in question. Quite simply, the analogy is an example to show you that there are alternative ways to reading that passage. "The wages of falling off a cliff is death" doesn't require me to read "you were punished" into that. The unbiased person sees that death is a consequence of the action, wehther sinning or walking off a cliff. It certainly is a good analogy - but not good as far as proving your point, so thus, you wave it away...
In the third paragraph, yes, sin causes death, but so does the fact that we are "in Adam." Also, in the 3ird paragraph your statement on "slavery" is rather absurd. Francis, just think about what you said a little. Of course the issue of our slavery to sin is spoken of in Romans 6. The nature of the slavery in Romans 6 is a slavery to sin. Not a slavery to individual sins, but sin (sin nature). You picture the slave freeing himself by no longer rejecting Christ. Romans 6 is not about the christian freeing himself, but it is about Christ freeing us from our sin nature.
Again, see above. The problem, Mondar, is that you cannot understand "synergy". You "believe" in it, sort of like "unconditional forgiveness". Theoretically, it exists, but practically speaking, in the world of the "reformed", it doesn't and they won't have it. So all Scripture verses that speak of it are ignored or tossed out. Christ freely offers freedom from sin to EVERYONE. He is the Mediator between God and Man. ALL mankind, Mondar... Without exception. Without this eternal Man sitting at the right Hand of God, pleading for us, we cannot save ourselves. But because Christ makes this offer doesn't mean that He does everything and I do nothing.
And I certainly have NEVER said that the Christian frees HIMSELF. Please stop the false accusations.
If you want a verse, I would point to Hebrews 10.
14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
And how does this address my question where a perfect sacrifice must be made to God to appease His sense of satisfaction and justice??? Again, you are reaching, there is nothing here about the subject at hand. It is saying that because of Jesus' intercession, made meritorious by His sacrifice, the believer is being made holy. Note, it says "MADE HOLY", vs your legal fiction idea...
Regards
