Bible Study This “Old Manâ€: He Plays On

[netchaplain]

It was through the “Tree of Life†that God taught Adam concerning eternity; and through the “Tree of Knowledge†He taught him His holiness. Knowledge and understanding is best taught through contrast and in this case, one tree for life and the other for death--both represent the contrast of good and evil (Gen 3:22). It would not be presumptuous to conclude that God allowed Adam’s sin nature to remain for his good; to learn of God’s holiness by learning of his own decadent nature.

Scripture teaches that the believer is free from the guilt of sin but nowhere is it said that the source of sin, “old manâ€, has been removed. This is why Paul wrote that he, not was, but is (continually) “crucified with Christ†(Gal 2:20). It is the “old man†or Adamic nature that, not was, but “is crucified†(Rom 6:6).

If sin’s source were removed from the believer, sin itself would no longer be an issue and the believer would no longer require scriptural admonitions to continue to choose between righteousness and unrighteousness. Being made aware of the continuing presence of “the old manâ€, as evidenced by Romans seven, will better equip the believer to understand that we “yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness†by not yielding “your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity†(Rom 6:19). If we do not know to put off (disengage) “the old man†which is present, we cannot put on (engage) the “new manâ€, which is also present (Eph 4:22, 24; Col 3:9, 10).

The presence and influence of these members are confirmed and identified in Colossians 3:5 which writes, “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth (still present); fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry.†Though we walk with them, we do not live by them. “In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them†(v 7).

How do we avoid yielding to, and allow the putting off of the Adamic nature? You probably know; by mortifying “the deeds of the body†which is done only “through the Spirit†(Rom 8:13). Notice this does not address “the body†but “the deeds†of it. Through the Spirit, the Adamic nature and its “deeds†are subdued or mortified, but not eradicated; just as the one undergoing crucifixion was bound but not immediately killed. This is a direct analogy to the lingering existence of our Adamic nature, which we are easily distracted from by “the pride of lifeâ€.

The height of God’s holiness can be more clearly seen by the Light which shines bright on the depths of our Adamic nature.
-NC

 

[Eugene]

It was through the “Tree of Life†that God taught Adam concerning eternity; and through the “Tree of Knowledge†He taught him His holiness. Knowledge and understanding is best taught through contrast and in this case, one tree for life and the other for death--both represent the contrast of good and evil (Gen 3:22).

The difference being law and grace?

Scripture teaches that the believer is free from the guilt of sin but nowhere is it said that the source of sin, “old manâ€, has been removed.

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." .
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin (My old man) that dwelleth in me.

If sin’s source were removed from the believer, sin itself would no longer be an issue and the believer would no longer require scriptural admonitions to continue to choose between righteousness and unrighteousness.

To me Paul was definitely caught between this ROCK and the hard place as we read Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? and Romans 7:25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Notice this does not address “the body†but “the deeds†of it. The height of God’s holiness can be more clearly seen by the Light which shines bright on the depths of our Adamic nature.
-NC

I love this and highlighted some of it. And then we come to Romans 8:1 which says "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus," and Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Mitspa]

It was through the “Tree of Life†that God taught Adam concerning eternity; and through the “Tree of Knowledge†He taught him His holiness. Knowledge and understanding is best taught through contrast and in this case, one tree for life and the other for death--both represent the contrast of good and evil (Gen 3:22). It would not be presumptuous to conclude that God allowed Adam’s sin nature to remain for his good; to learn of God’s holiness by learning of his own decadent nature.

Scripture teaches that the believer is free from the guilt of sin but nowhere is it said that the source of sin, “old manâ€, has been removed. This is why Paul wrote that he, not was, but is (continually) “crucified with Christ†(Gal 2:20). It is the “old man†or Adamic nature that, not was, but “is crucified†(Rom 6:6).

If sin’s source were removed from the believer, sin itself would no longer be an issue and the believer would no longer require scriptural admonitions to continue to choose between righteousness and unrighteousness. Being made aware of the continuing presence of “the old manâ€, as evidenced by Romans seven, will better equip the believer to understand that we “yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness†by not yielding “your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity†(Rom 6:19). If we do not know to put off (disengage) “the old man†which is present, we cannot put on (engage) the “new manâ€, which is also present (Eph 4:22, 24; Col 3:9, 10).

The presence and influence of these members are confirmed and identified in Colossians 3:5 which writes, “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth (still present); fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry.†Though we walk with them, we do not live by them. “In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them†(v 7).

How do we avoid yielding to, and allow the putting off of the Adamic nature? You probably know; by mortifying “the deeds of the body†which is done only “through the Spirit†(Rom 8:13). Notice this does not address “the body†but “the deeds†of it. Through the Spirit, the Adamic nature and its “deeds†are subdued or mortified, but not eradicated; just as the one undergoing crucifixion was bound but not immediately killed. This is a direct analogy to the lingering existence of our Adamic nature, which we are easily distracted from by “the pride of lifeâ€.

The height of God’s holiness can be more clearly seen by the Light which shines bright on the depths of our Adamic nature.
-NC

Another excellent post Chaplain! I agree almost word for word....God Bless

 

[netchaplain]

Thanks for the compliment Mitspa and please feel free to share anything you would like to bring up, esp. if in reference to our posts.

Thanks also to Eugene. I like the point you made concerning his hard-pressed situation because I'm in the progress of writing an article entitled "The Body of This Death", which might be posted today or tomorrow.

God's blessings to the "Household of Faith"!

For Christ Sake

 

[Deborah13]

Another excellent post Chaplain! I agree almost word for word....God Bless

Romans 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Deborah13]

I don't know about you boys but I've been done with the "old man" for over 2 yrs. and I don't need to dig him up from the grave. He was buried with Christ.
I am a "new creature" in Christ, He made me so whether you accept your new idenitity or not, I do. In Roman 6 that is exactly what Paul is saying.

Romans 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The the body of sin can not be destroy if the old man lives.

"Old man" refers to the spirit you had prior to salvation." Andrew Wommack, Spirit, Soul, and Body, 2008

You can not have the Spirit of God living you and have the spirit of the old man lead and tempted and deceived by satan, living in you, too.

Do I sinned YES, my fleshy soul sins. There's a lot of garbage to get rid of that the old man accumulated. How do I get rid of this garbage by renewing my mind (soul) by the Word of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to instruct me in the righteous ways of God. By the way all this garbage came from the deceiver to start with. He takes all the wonderful things that God created for good, including man, and he corrupts them. He is so jealous of God that we, the very thing created to worship a our Lord, that is what he attacks the most. Were you ever tempted by a thought that would never even come into your mind before you were saved, you can bet that's the deceiver, the accuser of the brotheren.

Jesus gave us a new heart, a heart that knows to love Him and worship Him.

The old man CAN NOT "be made the righteousness of God in Christ."

God has a soul, a spirit, and a body.
Matthew 12:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles


So do we.
1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You can not have two natures living in you, the like a split personality, or being Schizophrenic. NO, NO, NO
This is such bad doctrine that I can't even express the taste it leaves in my mouth.

Does Paul say he dies each day. Of coarse. Each day we crucify those old man thoughts and actions, but not because he still exists. Paul says it's not him who sins, but evil in his flesh (soul). Look it up in the Greek

Let me give you a worldly example. For years you have eatten poorly, love that fried chicken. You've put on several pounds, endangering your health. You stop eatting the chicken in fact you don't have any of the chicken, in fact you've repented (changed your mind) about eatting chicken. You finally believed the chicken is bad for you. BUT....you have to loose all that extra weight you gained from bad eatting habits.

The only reason that I responded to this post at all, normally I would have ignored it especially out of respect for the Chaplain, but Mitspa, this is the very thing you preach against day in and day out and the works people fight you and the OSAS people fight you and you continue to stand firm. Maybe, you just don't know this, maybe you just know your righteous identity in Christ. But you can't have two natures. Your nature is the new creature or the old man.

 

[Mitspa]

I don't know about you boys but I've been done with the "old man" for over 2 yrs. and I don't need to dig him up from the grave. He was buried with Christ.
I am a "new creature" in Christ, He made me so whether you accept your new idenitity or not, I do. In Roman 6 that is exactly what Paul is saying.

Romans 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The the body of sin can not be destroy if the old man lives.

"Old man" refers to the spirit you had prior to salvation." Andrew Wommack, Spirit, Soul, and Body, 2008

You can not have the Spirit of God living you and have the spirit of the old man lead and tempted and deceived by satan, living in you, too.

Do I sinned YES, my fleshy soul sins. There's a lot of garbage to get rid of that the old man accumulated. How do I get rid of this garbage by renewing my mind (soul) by the Word of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to instruct me in the righteous ways of God. By the way all this garbage came from the deceiver to start with. He takes all the wonderful things that God created for good, including man, and he corrupts them. He is so jealous of God that we, the very thing created to worship a our Lord, that is what he attacks the most. Were you ever tempted by a thought that would never even come into your mind before you were saved, you can bet that's the deceiver, the accuser of the brotheren.

Jesus gave us a new heart, a heart that knows to love Him and worship Him.

The old man CAN NOT "be made the righteousness of God in Christ."

God has a soul, a spirit, and a body.
Matthew 12:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles


So do we.
1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You can not have two natures living in you, the like a split personality, or being Schizophrenic. NO, NO, NO
This is such bad doctrine that I can't even express the taste it leaves in my mouth.

Does Paul say he dies each day. Of coarse. Each day we crucify those old man thoughts and actions, but not because he still exists. Paul says it's not him who sins, but evil in his flesh (soul). Look it up in the Greek

Let me give you a worldly example. For years you have eatten poorly, love that fried chicken. You've put on several pounds, endangering your health. You stop eatting the chicken in fact you don't have any of the chicken, in fact you've repented (changed your mind) about eatting chicken. You finally believed the chicken is bad for you. BUT....you have to loose all that extra weight you gained from bad eatting habits.

The only reason that I responded to this post at all, normally I would have ignored it especially out of respect for the Chaplain, but Mitspa, this is the very thing you preach against day in and day out and the works people fight you and the OSAS people fight you and you continue to stand firm. Maybe, you just don't know this, maybe you just know your righteous identity in Christ. But you can't have two natures. Your nature is the new creature or the old man.

I agree with you 100% sister!

I aslo know that the fact that by the Spirit we overcome and put to death the "flesh" is so unseen by most, that I was glad the Chaplain posted the issue.

We do remain in a body of death that if we are not careful to gaurd or hearts and mind, can bring us back into doubt and out of faith? By faith we enter into the Spirit and by faith we walk in the Spirit. The flesh and natural mind will attempt to bring fears and doubt about God and who we are in Christ.

I think maybe the Chaplain was trying to bring the issue in a way that helps some to understand that is our part to believe every day that we have died with Christ. That we fight the fight of faith every day? Thats why you and I wake every day and begin to remember Gods words, and who we are in Him. We have learned to confess to ourselves and any little devil around that "WE ARE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST" to me that is dying to the "flesh" daily. It sounds to me as if the Chaplain is saying this same thing, but in a little different way?

Your Brother in Christ- Mitspa

 

[netchaplain]

Romans 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The the body of sin can not be destroy if the old man lives.

"Old man" refers to the spirit you had prior to salvation." Andrew Wommack, Spirit, Soul, and Body, 2008

You can not have two natures living in you, the like a split personality, or being Schizophrenic.

Hi Deborah - God's blessings to your Family! The most secure method of learning Scripture is to always remain with Scripture. A believer will always keep the desire to be involved with what the word teaches, so this isn't the problem.

The problem is that we are hesitant not to challenge what we believe concerning certain passages, therefore many do not keep their knowledge in check with the word and thus, become suspicious of unfamiliar teachings and are prone to accept what they've been taught by men and not the Spirit.

Scripture doesn't teach our "old man" (which is a nature, not an entity such as a spirit) was buried with Christ as we were (Rom 6:4; Col 2:12) because it didn't make it beyond the crucifixion; hence, "our old man is crucified with Him", not just was but still is being crucified (Rom 6:6).

It's also helpful to be assured of what words actually mean, which all of us need to maintain. The definition for destroyed, as in "the body of sin might be destroyed", applies to the context being used:

Definition of DESTROY:
transitive verb
1
: to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of <destroyed the files>; also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds <their reputation was destroyed>

2
a : to put out of existence : kill <destroy an injured horse> (This is not the context of Rom 6:6. Not many are in referrance to this one, ie. 1 Cor 15:26)

b : neutralize <the moon destroys the light of the stars>

c : annihilate, vanquish <armies had been crippled but not destroyed — W. L. Shirer>

Merriam-Webster Free Online Dictionary; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

It's the condemning (Rom 8:1) and ruling element that is rendered inoperative in the Adamic nature but not the existence of the nature itself. Otherwise Paul's admonition would be for us not to let sin remain in us, instead of, "Therefore do not let sin reign" or "have dominion" (Rom 6:12, 14).

I do not try to contend with others belief's, but attempt to appeal to their desire for truth by reminding them and myself, to maintain doctrine by Scripture support only!

Just an added issue, Schizophrenia is more than just thoughts deriving from our natures, but is: A actual psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by . . . delusions as in hallucinations.

 

[Mitspa]

I don't know about you boys but I've been done with the "old man" for over 2 yrs. and I don't need to dig him up from the grave. He was buried with Christ.
I am a "new creature" in Christ, He made me so whether you accept your new idenitity or not, I do. In Roman 6 that is exactly what Paul is saying.

Romans 6:6
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The the body of sin can not be destroy if the old man lives.

"Old man" refers to the spirit you had prior to salvation." Andrew Wommack, Spirit, Soul, and Body, 2008

You can not have the Spirit of God living you and have the spirit of the old man lead and tempted and deceived by satan, living in you, too.

Do I sinned YES, my fleshy soul sins. There's a lot of garbage to get rid of that the old man accumulated. How do I get rid of this garbage by renewing my mind (soul) by the Word of God and allowing the Holy Spirit to instruct me in the righteous ways of God. By the way all this garbage came from the deceiver to start with. He takes all the wonderful things that God created for good, including man, and he corrupts them. He is so jealous of God that we, the very thing created to worship a our Lord, that is what he attacks the most. Were you ever tempted by a thought that would never even come into your mind before you were saved, you can bet that's the deceiver, the accuser of the brotheren.

Jesus gave us a new heart, a heart that knows to love Him and worship Him.

The old man CAN NOT "be made the righteousness of God in Christ."

God has a soul, a spirit, and a body.
Matthew 12:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles


So do we.
1 Thessalonians 5:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You can not have two natures living in you, the like a split personality, or being Schizophrenic. NO, NO, NO
This is such bad doctrine that I can't even express the taste it leaves in my mouth.

Does Paul say he dies each day. Of coarse. Each day we crucify those old man thoughts and actions, but not because he still exists. Paul says it's not him who sins, but evil in his flesh (soul). Look it up in the Greek

Let me give you a worldly example. For years you have eatten poorly, love that fried chicken. You've put on several pounds, endangering your health. You stop eatting the chicken in fact you don't have any of the chicken, in fact you've repented (changed your mind) about eatting chicken. You finally believed the chicken is bad for you. BUT....you have to loose all that extra weight you gained from bad eatting habits.

The only reason that I responded to this post at all, normally I would have ignored it especially out of respect for the Chaplain, but Mitspa, this is the very thing you preach against day in and day out and the works people fight you and the OSAS people fight you and you continue to stand firm. Maybe, you just don't know this, maybe you just know your righteous identity in Christ. But you can't have two natures. Your nature is the new creature or the old man.

I am trying to see where the issue is? That which is born of flesh is "flesh". That which is born of Spirit is spirit. The "flesh" my physical body, that which is of dirt. "cursed" dirt by the way. Is still here. Now some call this the "sinful nature" I have allowed that others use this term , I do not! Now the issue of the "Flesh" was judged at the Cross in the body of Christ. God condemned sin in the flesh, in the body of Christ. So the flesh is nothing, it can niether condemn nor justify a believer. But unless a believer, by faith, accepts this truth and walks in it, although the work was done, they can not "reckon" themselves dead to sin. The flesh will still have power over them, because they still see themselves as the old man.

Now the "new man" is the Spiritual man. born from the Word, He does not consider the "flesh" only the Word of God. We receive the Spirit by faith and by faith we abide in the Spirit. The "new man" must eat of Gods Word to grow and by faith gains dominion over the "old man".

The mind is the issue, for sin came by knowledge. By knowledge of "Gods Righteousness"(which is the Image of Christ) The mind is "renewed" meaning the mind is freed from the old temporal thoughts, earthly thoughts. Renewed into the New Creation, who and what we are "in Christ". The Heavens and eternal things to come. Behold all things are new! The renewed mind is more aware of who they are in "spirit" and who they are to be eternally.

Now my understanding of the "soul" is not complete! But it appears that the soul must take on the Image of the Spirit. If it yields to the "flesh" it is what scripture calls "carnal".

This might also help? this earth and everything physical is temporal. It will all vanish or burn away as Peter stated. Christ is "redeeming" us from this temporal realm into the eternal realm. Our Spirits are Eternal beings in a temporal body.

2Co 4:18



While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Our spirits are working for eternal things, the flesh cannot understand the spirit. and fights against it.

I hope this helps explain my veiw? God bless -Mitspa

 

[Deborah13]

I am trying to see where the issue is? That which is born of flesh is "flesh". That which is born of Spirit is spirit. The "flesh" my physical body, that which is of dirt. "cursed" dirt by the way. Is still here. Now some call this the "sinful nature" I have allowed that others use this term , I do not! Now the issue of the "Flesh" was judged at the Cross in the body of Christ. God condemned sin in the flesh, in the body of Christ. So the flesh is nothing, it can niether condemn nor justify a believer. But unless a believer, by faith, accepts this truth and walks in it, although the work was done, they can not "reckon" themselves dead to sin. The flesh will still have power over them, because they still see themselves as the old man.

Now the "new man" is the Spiritual man. born from the Word, He does not consider the "flesh" only the Word of God. We receive the Spirit by faith and by faith we abide in the Spirit. The "new man" must eat of Gods Word to grow and by faith gains dominion over the "old man".

The mind is the issue, for sin came by knowledge. By knowledge of "Gods Righteousness"(which is the Image of Christ) The mind is "renewed" meaning the mind is freed from the old temporal thoughts, earthly thoughts. Renewed into the New Creation, who and what we are "in Christ". The Heavens and eternal things to come. Behold all things are new! The renewed mind is more aware of who they are in "spirit" and who they are to be eternally.

Now my understanding of the "soul" is not complete! But it appears that the soul must take on the Image of the Spirit. If it yields to the "flesh" it is what scripture calls "carnal".

This might also help? this earth and everything physical is temporal. It will all vanish or burn away as Peter stated. Christ is "redeeming" us from this temporal realm into the eternal realm. Our Spirits are Eternal beings in a temporal body.

2Co 4:18



While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Our spirits are working for eternal things, the flesh cannot understand the spirit. and fights against it.

I hope this helps explain my veiw? God bless -Mitspa

I agree with you 100%. This understanding has given me so much power over the flesh. I came out of a works (merited favor) background. I received these first teachings at the same time I was taught the Truth of the Gospel of grace. It took me every day 6 months of praying and reading the Word for hours to be able to believe it. I would hear a teaching, I'd open to the scriptures and pray, asking the Holy Spirit to teach me the Truth whether I liked it or not. I cried, I laughed, I frowned, and I rejoiced. I will never let it go.
Romans 6:6 - "the old man is crucified" and each day I renew that old fleshy soul/mind to come into agreement with the Word of God. What is repentance, but to change one's mind to agree with the mind of Christ.
Blessings to you, Deb

 

[Deborah13]

Hi Deborah - God's blessings to your Family! The most secure method of learning Scripture is to always remain with Scripture. A believer will always keep the desire to be involved with what the word teaches, so this isn't the problem.

The problem is that we are hesitant not to challenge what we believe concerning certain passages, therefore many do not keep their knowledge in check with the word and thus, become suspicious of unfamiliar teachings and are prone to accept what they've been taught by men and not the Spirit.

Scripture doesn't teach our "old man" (which is a nature, not an entity such as a spirit) was buried with Christ as we were (Rom 6:4; Col 2:12) because it didn't make it beyond the crucifixion; hence, "our old man is crucified with Him", not just was but still is being crucified (Rom 6:6).

It's also helpful to be assured of what words actually mean, which all of us need to maintain. The definition for destroyed, as in "the body of sin might be destroyed", applies to the context being used:

Definition of DESTROY:
transitive verb
1
: to ruin the structure, organic existence, or condition of <destroyed the files>; also : to ruin as if by tearing to shreds <their reputation was destroyed>

2
a : to put out of existence : kill <destroy an injured horse> (This is not the context of Rom 6:6. Not many are in referrance to this one, ie. 1 Cor 15:26)

b : neutralize <the moon destroys the light of the stars>

c : annihilate, vanquish <armies had been crippled but not destroyed — W. L. Shirer>

Merriam-Webster Free Online Dictionary; http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/destroy

It's the condemning (Rom 8:1) and ruling element that is rendered inoperative in the Adamic nature but not the existence of the nature itself. Otherwise Paul's admonition would be for us not to let sin remain in us, instead of, "Therefore do not let sin reign" or "have dominion" (Rom 6:12, 14).

I do not try to contend with others belief's, but attempt to appeal to their desire for truth by reminding them and myself, to maintain doctrine by Scripture support only!

Just an added issue, Schizophrenia is more than just thoughts deriving from our natures, but is: A actual psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment, by . . . delusions as in hallucinations.

I know what Schizophrenia is. Yes delusions, like not believing you are who Christ says you are.
Oh and by the way you added to Romans 6:6 -
Romans 6:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It's quite clear to me that the old man and the body of sin are two different things.


It helps to know the meaning of a word.

Crucified - Greek - systauroo
ie, Romans 6:6 (dropping the figure) the death of Christ upon the cross has wrought the extinction of our former corruption.
Thayer's Lexicon

wrought -  
verb 1. Archaic except in some senses . a simple past tense and past participle of work

World English Dictionary
extinction (ɪkˈstɪŋkʃən) http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html — n 1. the act of making extinct or the state of being extinct 2. the act of extinguishing or the state of being extinguished 3. complete destruction; annihilation 4. physics reduction of the intensity of radiation as a result of absorption or scattering by matter 5. astronomy the dimming of light from a celestial body as it passes through an absorbing or scattering medium, such as the earth's atmosphere or interstellar dust 6. psychol Compare habituation a process in which the frequency or intensity of a learned response is decreased as a result of reinforcement being withdrawn
Hmm....old man nature not around to reinforce old habits/sin

Kind of like the law stirring up the flesh, wouldn't you agree?

God bless you and Mrs. Chaplain

 

[netchaplain]

I am trying to see where the issue is? That which is born of flesh is "flesh". That which is born of Spirit is spirit. [/SIZE]

Hi Mitspa - I believe the word "flesh" used here both times is in reference to the sinful nature, not the fleshly body. Similar to Job 14:4; "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one."

Even if a person could re-enter a mother's womb multiple times,(Nicodemus's thought in John 3:4), the carnal-sinful nature would remain.

The nature of an individual is the key to determining what we are and judging from Scripture, the nature cannot be changed; "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom 8:7).

That's why we are given another nature which is created anew, not the old re-made. As we continue to notice the disagreements of the old nature, we continue on in the new because the Spirit causes us to live more by the new nature than the old. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Gal 5:17).

Even though we still occasionally make wrong choices in certain things, these are not what we live by, because we disagree with them.

 

[watchman333]

Great posts here, especially Netchaplain's who nailed it. It occured to me while reading these that so many of us, sadly, have no idea what is really being said for they have never truly experienced the NEW nature, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, coming into their lives. That is the true new nature, but Netchaplain is correct, we fight the old nature until we are safely gone from this wilderness we call home.

 

[netchaplain]

Hi Watchman - God's blessings to your Family and thanks for your reply.

 

[Flack]

I really enjoy this thread, and also find the comments of netchaplain to be affirming and insightful.

Romans 8:5-8
5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.


It is my view that we are a three part person; Flesh, Soul & Spirit. In our naturally born state we have no option but to be a slave to sin, carried out in our flesh. Upon spiritual birth, we have a tool with which to overcome the flesh. Our soul (mind, will & emotions) exists as a servant, carrying out the will of either the flesh or the spirit, depending on what it yields to. A daily battle, and choice that must be made on the part of the believer.



The Spiritual Man by Watchman Nee is a wonderful study on this subject.

 

[netchaplain]

Hi Flack - God's blessings to your Family! Thanks for your complement and I agree about WN, he is one among many dispensational theology teachers that share spiritual growth that coincides with Scripture.