Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Gary]

really? the ot where is that name in the bible? it wasn't called that the ta in tanach is Hebrew for torah, the the letters n is the prophets and writtings the last is poetry. the Hebrew word bible is tanach or chumash(family bible)

or does your bible not have exodus 20? or the first five books of the bible?

So, are you implying that the Torah, the Tanakh, and the Bible are the same book?

This is way off topic by the way.
.

 

[jasonc]

So, are you implying that the Torah, the Tanakh, and the Bible are the same book?

This is way off topic by the way.
.

the word old testament. where is that in the bible by name? the tanach is the Hebrew bible! the jews never called something old. that is was done by a HERETIC. the name of the bible in Hebrew would be brit chadosh. funny thing is the a man here told me that the name ot and nt weren't done by the rcc, the merely allowed it as they saw a reason but it was done by a heretic
the bible isn't old. does the torah have a promise in it or rather the tanach? it does. it all points to jesus. it cant be old.

 

[Gary]

So, are you implying that the Torah, the Tanakh, and the Bible are the same book?
.

 

[jasonc]

the torah is part of the bible. that is like to tell me that the bible is only the torah. the tanach is from genesis to malachi is an acronym for the names of the sections and order where the jews. they don't do it the same. they didn't reinvent the way the tanach was after the cross. they didn't pull a Jerome. they do have all the books in the diferent order. the new testament isn't part of that. the Hebrew word for that is from the messianic jews.

 

[Gary]

The only book I read is the bible.

 

[jasonc]

The only book I read is the bible.

well if one spoke Hebrew as most of my family say that word.tanach or chumash. they also call the bible of theirs a bible. so we can either argue what a bible is. or I can quote paul quoting the law. and he mentions the command thou shall not kill.

 

[Gary]

well if one spoke Hebrew as most of my family say that word.tanach or chumash. they also call the bible of theirs a bible. so we can either argue what a bible is. or I can quote paul quoting the law. and he mentions the command thou shall not kill.

Book, chapter, verse.

Please.

 

[jasonc]

Book, chapter, verse.

Please.

correction james said it:

2 My brethren, hold not, in respect of persons, the faith of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 for if there may come into your synagogue a man with gold ring, in gay raiment, and there may come in also a poor man in vile raiment,

3 and ye may look upon him bearing the gay raiment, and may say to him, `Thou -- sit thou here well,' and to the poor man may say, `Thou -- stand thou there, or, Sit thou here under my footstool,' --

4 ye did not judge fully in yourselves, and did become ill-reasoning judges.

5 Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him?

6 and ye did dishonour the poor one; do not the rich oppress you and themselves draw you to judgment-seats;

7 do they not themselves speak evil of the good name that was called upon you?

8 If, indeed, royal law ye complete, according to the Writing, `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,' -- ye do well;

9 and if ye accept persons, sin ye do work, being convicted by the law as transgressors;

10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one [point], he hath become guilty of all;

11 for He who is saying, `Thou mayest not commit adultery,' said also, `Thou mayest do no murder;' and if thou shalt not commit adultery, and shalt commit murder, thou hast become a transgressor of law;

I have well established that kill cant be used in place of murder in that god wouldn't have commanded men to take a life if he didn't endorse it. that doesn't mean the state cant order men immorally to murder such as the shoah, japan with the children of Koreans and Chinese, or America with the murder of Indians for land. but it can also be used for god. the defense of the jews that were freed during ww2.

 

[Gary]

2 My brethren, hold not, in respect of persons, the faith of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 for if there may come into your synagogue a man with gold ring, in gay raiment, and there may come in also a poor man in vile raiment,

3 and ye may look upon him bearing the gay raiment, and may say to him, `Thou -- sit thou here well,' and to the poor man may say, `Thou -- stand thou there, or, Sit thou here under my footstool,' --

4 ye did not judge fully in yourselves, and did become ill-reasoning judges.

5 Hearken, my brethren beloved, did not God choose the poor of this world, rich in faith, and heirs of the reign that He promised to those loving Him?

6 and ye did dishonour the poor one; do not the rich oppress you and themselves draw you to judgment-seats;

7 do they not themselves speak evil of the good name that was called upon you?

8 If, indeed, royal law ye complete, according to the Writing, `Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,' -- ye do well;

9 and if ye accept persons, sin ye do work, being convicted by the law as transgressors;

10 for whoever the whole law shall keep, and shall stumble in one [point], he hath become guilty of all;

11 for He who is saying, `Thou mayest not commit adultery,' said also, `Thou mayest do no murder;' and if thou shalt not commit adultery, and shalt commit murder, thou hast become a transgressor of law;

What version is this?

 

[Gary]

Here's Paul quoting the commandments.

Romans 13 - KJV
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Here's James.

James 2 - KJV
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

.

 

[Lewis]

Well God has given the commandment to kill in the past. And as for me I like to post things that is interesting that's all' I have been doing that here since 2005. so let us see what is going on with this topic shall we. I am going to breakout my Strongs Concordance and check that translation out.

 

[Lewis]

Yes Strongs Concordance 7523 does say murder it say especially murder.

 

[Edward]

Whoa. Two pages of...no discussion, lol. Anyway. If you read the scriptures with torturing the text in mind and with agenda to justify self defense, you can do it. I went through this awhile back, being a gun owner and thinking myself a good man with family to protect, i found my justification in scripture.

However, time passes, people grow in the Lord and wisdom increases, praise the Lord for that. I am able to read the same texts nowadays and in my older, somewhat more wiser and humbler state that I am at now, i can see where my pride had tortured the text in the past to get my justification. You can call it what you want to, but the Lord does not want us to kill period. I'm with Gary on this as i think he is correct.

Now does this mean that I will not protect my family? Does this mean that you could come in here and rape my wife with nothing to fear? Not hardly. I would act as the Spirit leads me to act. If He wants them dead, they die, if he wants to provide a solution without bloodshed, it will happen. In fact it did a couple years ago. I had an attempted home invasion. When I felt my spidey sense tingle when the big stranger asked to use my phone and i said no, it was on and he attacked me at my front door and tried to gain entry.

I was wearing my Colt 45 iwb as usual. Lucky for that man the Spirit of the Lord was with me that day and had mercy on him. The glass on the screen door was broke in the fight, we traded a few punches and did some grappling, then at a momentary break where he took a step back to shake of the last punch, I smoothly drew my 45 and pointed it at his face. I knew this would stop it at that point. Or thought so. He looks at me pointing the 45 at him for like two seconds, then I seen forward motion. He had to be on drugs. Who in their right mind steps towards a drawn 45? But he did. I was totally justified at that point to shoot him dead. Make my day law and all that. I had fight marks on me, the glass was broke and showed evidence of violence, it was clearly justified.

but I felt in my heart that I didn't want to shoot another human being. They say it changes you. Having had a veritable lifetime of training shooting, reading case laws, stories, much stuff and going shooting very very much, I instantly knew what to do (Spirit of god? Training?), that I had time to create distance, fire a warning shot down into the grass from the porch, while retreating into my home and still have enough time to actually come back on target and shoot him if necessary. i know that warning shots are frowned upon and that justification did exist. But I've read all the stories of justified shootings and their psychological aftermath. I really didn't want to go there. It was his choice though. Lord be with me. I figured if the sight of the weapon didn't turn him, then the sound of a shot may. (never shoot in the air, what goes up will come down). Justified or not you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. So it went into the grass. I was right. The sound of the single shot from the big gun did persuade him to leave. Suddenly i was alone and he was gone. Praise the lord a way was made for me to handle the situation without bloodshed.

I can not believe how many people told me i should have shot him, even the police did. I wasn't arrested, they didn't take my gun or nothing. They told me i should of shot him. (Edited, ToS 2.3: No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or language including toilet humor. This includes words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements. Obadiah.) The Lord is bigger than that. I credit our Lord for being with me and handling it for me.

Yes, I'm well aware that the Lord commanded people to kill in scripture. If He commands me to do so, then i will not disobey. But it is up to the lord and not to me. I have been instructed to kill not. I don't want to cross that line by my choice.

 

[Obadiah]

This discussion needs to stay peaceful. That means no foul language, including the use of keyboard characters to indicate cursing.

Also, if anyone wants to be argumentative in a competitive debate style, please take that to a one on one debate forum. Lets stick to the topic in the OP please.

 

[Edward]

Wow, sorry brother. actually i hadn't cursed, I called them stupid and thought I cleaned it up lest Offend someone, lol. I mean wow, what kind of person tells another they should shoot someone? that seemed a little over the top to me at the time. nevertheless, point well taken brother. Please forgive me.

 

[Obadiah]

No problem. Just wanted to let everyone know we shouldn't do that here. Too easy for others to misinterpret it.

 

[Lewis]

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1026247/pg1
Most refer to the Sixth Commandment that tells us "Thou shall not kill." This was incorrectly translated in English and should read, "Thou shalt not murder." In the chapters following, God gave to Moses many of the situations which require a death penalty. God clearly has not told us never to kill. He has told us not to murder, which means we are not to take an innocent life. If someone is trying to harm you or kill you, they are not innocent.

The Bible is full of stories promoting self-defense. One of the earliest tells of some men who kidnapped Lot, the patriarch Abraham's nephew. Abraham organized a militia and by force of arms rescued Lot from his kidnappers (Gen. 14:12 ).

Government Tyranny

Tyranny rises from within a nation when the government has been captured by men who use their power to oppress the people. Thus, the framers of the constitution recognized the need and right of citizens to keep and bear arms in order to insure real liberty.

Biblically speaking, tyranny exists when civil government departs from God's law and commands us to do things that are forbidden by God or forbids those things we are commanded by God to do.

Many Christians go through and twist every Scripture imaginable and take them out of context on how to deal with violence, tyranny, and oppression. It is no wonder God's laws made it's way into our constitution to be followed and guaranteed as inalienable rights of citizens to protect themselves, form militias and own weapons for their own self-defense. In God's laws and mirrored in our constitution we have or had, the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Now, in these prophetic "days of Noah" once again we are seeing wickedness and violence covering the land.

 

[Lewis]

Whoa. Two pages of...no discussion, lol. Anyway. If you read the scriptures with torturing the text in mind and with agenda to justify self defense, you can do it. I went through this awhile back, being a gun owner and thinking myself a good man with family to protect, i found my justification in scripture.

However, time passes, people grow in the Lord and wisdom increases, praise the Lord for that. I am able to read the same texts nowadays and in my older, somewhat more wiser and humbler state that I am at now, i can see where my pride had tortured the text in the past to get my justification. You can call it what you want to, but the Lord does not want us to kill period. I'm with Gary on this as i think he is correct.

Now does this mean that I will not protect my family? Does this mean that you could come in here and rape my wife with nothing to fear? Not hardly. I would act as the Spirit leads me to act. If He wants them dead, they die, if he wants to provide a solution without bloodshed, it will happen. In fact it did a couple years ago. I had an attempted home invasion. When I felt my spidey sense tingle when the big stranger asked to use my phone and i said no, it was on and he attacked me at my front door and tried to gain entry.

I was wearing my Colt 45 iwb as usual. Lucky for that man the Spirit of the Lord was with me that day and had mercy on him. The glass on the screen door was broke in the fight, we traded a few punches and did some grappling, then at a momentary break where he took a step back to shake of the last punch, I smoothly drew my 45 and pointed it at his face. I knew this would stop it at that point. Or thought so. He looks at me pointing the 45 at him for like two seconds, then I seen forward motion. He had to be on drugs. Who in their right mind steps towards a drawn 45? But he did. I was totally justified at that point to shoot him dead. Make my day law and all that. I had fight marks on me, the glass was broke and showed evidence of violence, it was clearly justified.

but I felt in my heart that I didn't want to shoot another human being. They say it changes you. Having had a veritable lifetime of training shooting, reading case laws, stories, much stuff and going shooting very very much, I instantly knew what to do (Spirit of god? Training?), that I had time to create distance, fire a warning shot down into the grass from the porch, while retreating into my home and still have enough time to actually come back on target and shoot him if necessary. i know that warning shots are frowned upon and that justification did exist. But I've read all the stories of justified shootings and their psychological aftermath. I really didn't want to go there. It was his choice though. Lord be with me. I figured if the sight of the weapon didn't turn him, then the sound of a shot may. (never shoot in the air, what goes up will come down). Justified or not you are responsible for every bullet that leaves your gun. So it went into the grass. I was right. The sound of the single shot from the big gun did persuade him to leave. Suddenly i was alone and he was gone. Praise the lord a way was made for me to handle the situation without bloodshed.

I can not believe how many people told me i should have shot him, even the police did. I wasn't arrested, they didn't take my gun or nothing. They told me i should of shot him. (Edited, ToS 2.3: No foul language, pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or similarly related material or language including toilet humor. This includes words purposely misspelled or alternate use of characters to indicate such statements. Obadiah.) The Lord is bigger than that. I credit our Lord for being with me and handling it for me.

Yes, I'm well aware that the Lord commanded people to kill in scripture. If He commands me to do so, then i will not disobey. But it is up to the lord and not to me. I have been instructed to kill not. I don't want to cross that line by my choice.

Wow dude that was some altercation, I am glad that you didn't have to kill him and that your family was not harmed.

 

[Gary]

Biblically speaking, tyranny exists when civil government departs from God's law and commands us to do things that are forbidden by God or forbids those things we are commanded by God to do.

What are some examples of our government commanding us to do things that are forbidden by God?

What are some examples of our government forbidding us to do things that are commanded by God?
.

 

[Lewis]

What are some examples of our government commanding us to do things that are forbidden by God?

What are some examples of our government forbidding us to do things that are commanded by God?
.

To not speak out against homosexuality for a example, you can get in big trouble for that today. They are trying to force you to except it.