Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Lewis]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah)

 

[Rance-Adams]

Matthew 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

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I'm sorry, I don't understand your rebuttal. I don't see how the two verses you quoted contradicted or invalidated my statement. I'm not stating the Law or Prophets were destroyed, they serve a different purpose to God's people today than the purpose for His people over 2000 years ago, the Jews.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Hey, good to see you back. It took me awhile to stop laughing my grandson was just telling his mother that he was 1001s greats-grandson of Adam. Why he was thinking about that, I have no idea.

I do agree with you that the NT clearly lists what is sin.
However I think the OT is very valuable to us for a more complete understanding of many things written in the NT. In a discussion such as this one, I think we can show the difference between all killing and what would be defined as murder. The first instance of murder is found in Genesis. We can see what happened and why and how God respond to it.
About the OT being written to and for the Jews, I don't agree.
2Ti 3:16 every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
We also know that when the Bereans heard Paul they would go to the scripture/writings to see if what he said was true. Those writings were the OT. We see that Jesus and the apostles quoted from the OT.
But aside from all that, Adam, Cain, Noah, Job, etc. were not Jews they were Gentiles. The nation of Israel did not exist at that time. I don't believe God's moral laws have changed down through the ages. I believe salvation has always been by grace, through faith, see Abraham. I see the first act of God's grace for a sinner was in the garden. The OT is so rich in knowledge and seeing the nature of God, I know that by reading and studying it,especially here on this forum, I have been very blessed and have a better understanding of the NT and the words that our Lord spoke.

"I think the OT is very valuable to us for a more complete understanding of many things written in the NT" I completely agree. The OT is just as important to study as the NT. "I believe salvation has always been by grace, through faith, see Abraham" again I completely agree. Teaching, instruction, & conviction can have different purposes. Again all 3 of those things help create a narrative that leads to Jesus. Jesus is the prophet God has given His people today, as Christians we follow Jesus. If we follow the laws and commands of the OT then can we choose which ones to follow and the ones not to follow? By your reasoning how would we follow both the OT and NT? An eye for an eye and do not repay evil with evil? This is a sincere question.

 

[brother Paul]

The Hebrew word “rasah” or “rashah”, as it is used here in the 6th Commandment refers most specifically to premeditated murder without just cause. However, it can also be used in the sense of manslaughter, as when one kills by mistake, or without intent, like in the case of Numbers 25:11; Deuteronomy 4:42, 19:4, Joshua 20:3-5, and elsewhere! Thus in Hebrew the specific meaning of this word must always be determined by its’ context. We must always see it in relation to the surrounding statements. In the commandments it is absolute and the law is conditional…

Sin is a transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4) and there are actually 613 commandments…the soul that sins it must die is called the curse of the law but actually goes all the way back to the garden and what is really being said is that sin brings forth sickness and death (spiritual death).

Next, we have the word “hemit”, which carries no sense of guilt or iniquity and is used in the case of righteous capital punishment, or when the killing is the result of an attack from a wild beast, and so on! The root of this word is related to the word “emet” or truth. We see this usage in Leviticus 20:4; Numbers 35:19-21; Deuteronomy 13:10 (your passage) and Deuteronomy 17:7!

Finally, when God orders the execution or destruction of an individual or group (like when He commands Joshua at the five cities of Canaan), the word “haraq” is used (See Genesis 20:4; Exodus 4:23, etc.). This form of killing is used specifically in the prevention of foreseen evils beyond our comprehension. By eliminating these people, God is actually sparing millions of people the pain, disease, suffering, and death that they would have caused. It would be used for example in eliminating an Adolph Hitler. There is absolutely nothing evil in this, in fact it is very good. Therefore, this form of killing is always just, whether or not we finite humans can see the full implications of His doing it.

 

[brother Paul]

Imagine in the human body, each cell as an individual life form, which actually it is. They each likewise function as part of a specific local community (the heart, the lungs, the blood stream, etc.,). Different cells, and groups of cells, display differences in structure, appearance, life-span, function, etc., just like different humans and groups of humans! Each cell in relation to the other cells, and as a member of their particular cellular community, knowingly or unknowingly works as an intricate part of a whole which is greater than the sum of its parts. The human host, of which it is but a tiny almost insignificant part, is as the Lord is to us, in relation to the members of His body. The individual cell’s instinctual purpose, like our own, is to work to maintain and protect its self life, as well as the goals of its community life.

One of the ways they assure the survival of their type is through self-replication or offspring. Their higher purpose is actually to achieve our will and our good purpose though they are most probably totally unaware, or only vaguely, that we, as their human host, even exists. They understand little if anything about us, and our ways are higher than their ways, our thoughts are higher than their thoughts, if indeed it can be said that they even have any. They go about more or less doing the right thing in relation to one another unaware of the part they are playing in working within our overall purpose and will. Beyond their circumstantial perceptions they are working and interacting to optimize our quality of life and helping to fulfill our long term plans.

Now then, each individual cell is created in our image. They contain the image of their host within each of them (called DNA). They probably can sense an order and function interactively to enhance their mutually dependable existence. The span of their existence may be miniscule in relation to their human host, but to them it is a lifetime.

Sad as this truth is, every once in a while, a cell or some group of cells, decides they are going to do their own thing. They’re going to be their own lord if you will. They seemingly become self-willed and rebellious toward the established order. They begin to gain new converts so to speak, in great numbers, and nothing is going to stop them from their plan to take over. We call this actual biological phenomena “Cancer”! These terrorist or barbarous cells literally go into attack mode and start sapping the life out of the surrounding cells, killing as many as necessary in pursuit of their self-willed agenda. At first the effect of their violence upon their community of cells is slight and almost unnoticeable, causing some alarm, discomfort, and intermittent disturbance here and there. Regulatory norms are enforced by the greater community, and often these violent murderous outbreaks are remedied without bringing much attention or alarm to the neighboring cellular communities. However, on occasion these cells reject these corrective measures and rebel even further extending there influence outward, and begin to influence their surroundings in such a way that the immune system is alerted, and the local community has to call in specialists to eliminate these criminal cells in an attempt to protect the near by individuals, and the society at large. These are usually in the form of “anti-bodies” and white blood cells, that specialize in response to the types of violent rebellion these particular cellular individuals impose. Why try to eliminate them? Because of the inevitable threat they cause to individuals and to the greater society. The literally bring a sort of chaos into the order of things destroying the work being done there. If left on their own without being stopped they will continue to maliciously destroy and entirely take over. The forces alerted to remedy the problem will stop at nothing to prevent more senseless murder and mayhem and if necessary will even kill them. They even try surrounding them and trapping them as a first attempt by encapsulating them in a membrane or prison if you will.

If they get too powerful, or for some non-sensible reason are released, or break out of their captivity, or get away with their self-lordship too long, the cell’s lord, the human host, begins to take notice and likewise goes on alert. It likewise then takes any steps necessary to overcome or even kill the Cancer before it gets too powerful. It will irradiate, cut out, laser roast, or even chop off a limb in order to preserve the greater good and sometimes the life of the whole. Often times a number of good healthy citizen cells are called on to make the sacrifice of self for the greater good. Sometimes just the act of chasing down these devils and getting at them causes the sacrifice of good, innocent, healthy, cellular individuals. As tragic as this may seem it is the necessary price that must be paid to protect and save the most lives in the community.

So it is with God! Occasionally, God sees the development of a human cancer growing stronger and stronger. The appropriate members of the human community at large are being intimidated, persuaded, abused, and even eliminated. Sometimes He sees that resistance attempts have been, or will continue to be futile, and so He must step in and take action to save the many, to work the greater overall good, even though we may not fully comprehend the extent of this benefit at the time.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

next to the chapter where he says to the romans centurions to stop being them. funny it nots there or to allow thy wife, to be raped, or killed and don't call the cops. they might have to kill the rapist to defend the wife you wont

I'm not against what you are saying, but where on earth are you living that you have to worry about finding your wife being raped?
I think it's time to move.

 

[jasonc]

I'm not against what you are saying, but where on earth are you living that you have to worry about finding your wife being raped?
I think it's time to move.

where? a rapist will often be a member of your family or friend.

 

[Deborah13]

If we follow the laws and commands of the OT then can we choose which ones to follow and the ones not to follow? By your reasoning how would we follow both the OT and NT? An eye for an eye and do not repay evil with evil? This is a sincere question.

Hmm....I'm not sure where you would have gotten these two questions from my post. Where did I say anything about following OT Mosaic Law or an eye for an eye?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

where? a rapist will often be a member of your family or friend.

Well, I'm certainly not qualified to answer that so I'll just leave it alone.

 

[Jim Parker]

because if thou did and say, god commanded thee to murder. were the men in canaan murdered when isreal took the land or killed in combat by the command of god? there has to be a difference. god wouldn't break his own laws!

The scriptures relate the times when God has either personally wiped out a civilization (Flood, Sodom & Gomorrah) or when He has used other people to do so as was the case in the invasion/conquest of Canaan. The reason for the mass destruction was the sin of the people who were destroyed. It is a similar situation as when a surgeon amputates a gangrenous leg in order to save the life of the person. In order to prevent the infection of sin to spread resulting in the eternal death of the surrounding nations, God has, on occasion, wiped out nations.

HE also promised Israel that if they went after foreign gods, he would punish them in like manner and only leave a remnant. And that's what He did.

iakov the fool

 

[Rance-Adams]

next to the chapter where he says to the romans centurions to stop being them. funny it nots there or to allow thy wife, to be raped, or killed and don't call the cops. they might have to kill the rapist to defend the wife you wont

Jesus never tells anyone to harm or kill anyone else. You are making a fallacious, illogical argument by saying because He didn't say something then the opposite (it's ok to harm or kill) is approved.

 

[jasonc]

Jesus never tells anyone to harm or kill anyone else. You are making a fallacious, illogical argument by saying because He didn't say something then the opposite (it's ok to harm or kill) is approved.

Jesus also said or the bible says not tempt others to sin.by calling the law to stop any crime is just that. Can't disobey laws and they exist to report,aid in the capture if asked .posses.these did exist.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Jesus also said or the bible says not tempt others to sin.by calling the law to stop any crime is just that. Can't disobey laws and they exist to report,aid in the capture if asked .posses.these did exist.

You're right we shouldn't tempt others; I would not call the law. Your premise is correct and most Christians would call the police yet typically I wouldn't therefore not cause temptation.

 

[jasonc]

You're right we shouldn't tempt others; I would not call the law. Your premise is correct and most Christians would call the police yet typically I wouldn't therefore not cause temptation.

So Paul sinned in that he appeal to ceaser? Or told the guards about the murder plot.yeah roman soldiers not the most gentile of law agents in history.

 

[Jim Parker]

next to the chapter where he says to the romans centurions to stop being them. funny it nots there or to allow thy wife, to be raped, or killed and don't call the cops. they might have to kill the rapist to defend the wife you wont

OK
That answer doesn't make any sense or answer the question, "Where does God give this command to kill under the New Covenant?".

 

[jasonc]

OK
That answer doesn't make any sense or answer the question, "Where does God give this command to kill under the New Covenant?".

The command to kill for law enforcement is in Romans 13.the sword. But is it murder or lawful execution or the act of self defense?

I highly doubt self defense is a sin.

 

[Jim Parker]

The command to kill for law enforcement is in Romans 13.the sword. But is it murder or lawful execution or the act of self defense?
I highly doubt self defense is a sin.

Ah! That makes sense.
The officer bears the sword because it may become necessary in order to enforce the law.
That is not a command to kill. It is a recognition that deadly force may be necessary to enforce the law.

iakov the fool

 

[n2thelight]

(6) Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."

This is the first of the civil commandments. "Kill" as used here in the Hebrew text is "murder". It is # 7523 in the Strong's Hebrew dictionary; "ratsach, raw-taskh'; a prime root, prop. to dash to pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder, to put to death, to murder." Jesus talked about this commandment in Matthew 5:21; "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, "Thou shalt not kill"; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the Judgment:" Then He went on to say:

Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, `Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

In the text there is a difference between the English and the Greek for the word, "brother". This word "brother" is "an Israelite by nation and blood"; while a "neighbor" was "an Israelite by religion and worship practice", which was also called a "Proselyte". Both are of God, and not heathen, for they are attached as God's people through blood by birth, and/or drawn into the congregation in their religion and worship practice.

The word "Raca" in the English, is "an expression of showing discuss with a person, when it isn't merited". Jesus then was telling us that it could get you in trouble with those around you, for it is a form of slander that w as used in Jesus day. The council was the Sanhedrin, or the courts of the land.

The word "fool" as used here is not as we use it today, but in the Greek tongue "moros", and was always considered a wicked reprobate, lacking all spiritual and divine knowledge and values. So you would be saying that this person was void of all spiritual values, and given over totally to the devil. Today the term fool is one that lacks good judgment in his decision making, which has nothing to do with the "Moros" of this verse.

However as we go beyond Exodus 21 we will be discussing the term "murder" in greater detail, so that we can better understand what murder is and what God thinks of it. In the Greek "to kill" is murder; #5406 "phoneus; fon-yooce'; murderer, always of criminal [intentional] homicide." The Bible applies capital punishment to criminal homicide, and that soul of the murderer is sent back to the Father for judgment. God is the only One that truly judges that soul. Every murderer will stand in God's heavenly court to be judged for that act with the victim at hand. There are no unsolved cases in that court, no trials that go bad, and no crooked judges in God's court. It's your soul that is judged in that court, and there is no salvation for your soul until you clear that heavenly court and God gives you the okay.

I John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiden in him."

I John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment. This is done so others will see it, and these things will cease to exist among you: Deuteronomy 19:1-13. However, to kill is honorable when it protects family and nation. But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body.

https://www.theseason.org/exodus/exodus20.htm

 

[Jim Parker]

A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment.

If this is true, it seems that Paul, who participated in the murder of the Saints before he was called by God to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, would not be able to be saved.
Act 26:10 This I also did in Jerusalem, and many of the saints I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.


iakov the fool

 

[Free]

You're right we shouldn't tempt others; I would not call the law. Your premise is correct and most Christians would call the police yet typically I wouldn't therefore not cause temptation.

Are you saying that you would not call the police in the event of someone breaking the law? And are you justifying that on biblical grounds?