Thou Shall not Kill Or Murder

[Jim Parker]

My point is that premeditated murder has nothing to do with anything. Murder is murder, premeditated or not. Murder is the unjustified killing of another person, and premeditation has no bearing on that.

The Bible does distinguish between murder and accidental or unintentional killing. (Deu 19:4, 6; Jos 20:5)
And it certainly distinguishes between murder and killing in warfare as God commanded Israel to kill every man, woman, child and beast of the Canaanites.
There are also quite a few instances in the Law of Moses of offenses which require the death penalty.

jus sayin

 

[n2thelight]

That comes across as rather disingenuous. If you cannot provide support for your beliefs, why do you believe them to be true?

Because I know murder can't be forgiven in the flesh,yet I know David was,as it was pointed out 2 me.
Just gonna study some more

4real though ,yu can't win here,admit when yu don't quite undersatand and get responses like this ,don't and ur labeled as can't change

All I know 4 sure is only God can judge me,period.........

 

[n2thelight]

My point is that premeditated murder has nothing to do with anything. Murder is murder, premeditated or not. Murder is the unjustified killing of another person, and premeditation has no bearing on that.

From a previous post of yours:

"A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment....But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body."

Is there any biblical support for these assertions?

Premeditation has all the world 2 do with it

Matthew 5:22 "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, `Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

In the text there is a difference between the English and the Greek for the word, "brother". This word "brother" is "an Israelite by nation and blood"; while a "neighbor" was "an Israelite by religion and worship practice", which was also called a "Proselyte". Both are of God, and not heathen, for they are attached as God's people through blood by birth, and/or drawn into the congregation in their religion and worship practice.

The word "Raca" in the English, is "an expression of showing discuss with a person, when it isn't merited". Jesus then was telling us that it could get you in trouble with those around you, for it is a form of slander that w as used in Jesus day. The council was the Sanhedrin, or the courts of the land.

The word "fool" as used here is not as we use it today, but in the Greek tongue "moros", and was always considered a wicked reprobate, lacking all spiritual and divine knowledge and values. So you would be saying that this person was void of all spiritual values, and given over totally to the devil. Today the term fool is one that lacks good judgment in his decision making, which has nothing to do with the "Moros" of this verse.

However as we go beyond Exodus 21 we will be discussing the term "murder" in greater detail, so that we can better understand what murder is and what God thinks of it. In the Greek "to kill" is murder; #5406 "phoneus; fon-yooce'; murderer, always of criminal [intentional] homicide." The Bible applies capital punishment to criminal homicide, and that soul of the murderer is sent back to the Father for judgment. God is the only One that truly judges that soul. Every murderer will stand in God's heavenly court to be judged for that act with the victim at hand. There are no unsolved cases in that court, no trials that go bad, and no crooked judges in God's court. It's your soul that is judged in that court, and there is no salvation for your soul until you clear that heavenly court and God gives you the okay.

I John 3:15 "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiden in him."

I John 3:16 "Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down His life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren."

A murderer cannot have salvation in his soul, because he is not suppose to be living. He is to be executed and sent to the Father for judgment. This is done so others will see it, and these things will cease to exist among you: Deuteronomy 19:1-13. However, to kill is honorable when it protects family and nation. But to murder, to lie in wait and premeditate is to commit a criminal homicide. This should carry the death sentence, and is unforgivable while you are in the flesh body.

https://www.theseason.org/exodus/exodus20.htm

 

[WIP]

Because I know murder can't be forgiven in the flesh,yet I know David was,as it was pointed out 2 me.

How do you know this? Just curious.

 

[n2thelight]

How do you know this? Just curious.

See above post 143

 

[Corn Pop]

The law come through Moses but the truth come through Jesus. Jesus gives more clarity on the Law.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Are you saying that you would not call the police in the event of someone breaking the law? And are you justifying that on biblical grounds?

No, I'm only referring to calling the police in situations where they would harm or kill someone. I would do what I could without violence and would not tempt the police to commit violence by calling them. I will probably be dead because of my interaction of putting my life between the attacker and victim. The police are not the only form of keeping civility in our society. We as individuals are far greater in number and have a responsibility to help maintain order and peace. I have called the police on people regarding other issues. God's expectation of me regarding violence is to refrain.

 

[jasonc]

A simple traffic ticket can turn deadly, or as I know a friend who is a cop.and lawfully killed over a response to a public nuisance complaint.a school tried to get him to comply without calling the cops.we can't reasonably assume that the problem won't escalate to the use of deadly force.many times it won't but sometimes it does.untrained laymen aren't able to know when it will.a few murderers have been caught by traffic stops.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Because I know murder can't be forgiven in the flesh,yet I know David was,as it was pointed out 2 me.
Just gonna study some more

4real though ,yu can't win here,admit when yu don't quite undersatand and get responses like this ,don't and ur labeled as can't change

All I know 4 sure is only God can judge me,period.........

Not so youngster. A good read and meditation with prayer for wisdom will teach you that the world invaded the Church some time ago because I grew up believing that Matthew 7:1 meant to shut up and do not judge people. But 7:1 is just the first sentence pf the first paragraph of the chapter. In other words, context, context, and always context!

Actually Jesus/God is teaching us to clean up our lives (take the log out of your eye) before you judge where your brother is and try to help him but in this chapter, jesus is assuring us that we must judge a man's fruit (the things he says and does.

 

[Free]

No, I'm only referring to calling the police in situations where they would harm or kill someone. I would do what I could without violence and would not tempt the police to commit violence by calling them.

But that is one of the very reasons they exist and that is supported by the Bible (Romans 13:1-5). This has nothing to do with causing them to be tempted, it has everything to do with keeping law and order.

 

[Jim Parker]

God's expectation of me regarding violence is to refrain.

Even Jesus told his disciples that, if they didn't have a sword, to sell their cloak and buy one. (Luk 22:36)
There is nothing in scripture to tell us that we should not defend someone who is being beaten or is in danger of being killed and that situation will very likely require violent action.
And it is not up to me to refrain from calling the police because they might be tempted to use deadly force in the defense of their and other's lives. They are trained to avoid having to do so and when it is appropriate to do so.
Let them do the job we pay them to do.

 

[Rance-Adams]

Even Jesus told his disciples that, if they didn't have a sword, to sell their cloak and buy one. (Luk 22:36)
There is nothing in scripture to tell us that we should not defend someone who is being beaten or is in danger of being killed and that situation will very likely require violent action.
And it is not up to me to refrain from calling the police because they might be tempted to use deadly force in the defense of their and other's lives. They are trained to avoid having to do so and when it is appropriate to do so.
Let them do the job we pay them to do.

Scripture does in fact tell us not to use violence and this is not conditional on the situation; thus applicable when being in the presence of someone being beaten or in danger. Our reaction should be self sacrificial not sacrificing someone else.

Jesus did not protect the helpless disciples spreading the word about Him. They were tortured and murdered. They could have live longer spreading the gospel.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Romans 12:17
Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. "Never" and "Anyone" are absolute terms
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Clearly violence is evil and to defeat it God says to use good
1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Ephesians 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma

Someone physically harming a stranger is an enemy of mine and I would expect them to be an enemy of anydecent person. God speaks much about loving our enemies and how we treat them.

I want as much as anyone to dish out retribution to evil, mean, violent people; I just don't see Jesus doing that.

I see your point regarding calling the police and have a problem with the whole idea because I don't have a good answer or understanding about it. I may call the police, I just don't know.

 

[Jim Parker]

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person

So if an evil person is about to rape and kill you mother, wife, and daughter and it will take violence to stop him, you do what? You don't resist?
You see someone beating a child with a baseball bat and you don't resist?
A jihadist is shooting children in a schoolroom and you don't resist?

Are you kidding me?

 

[th1b.taylor]

Scripture does in fact tell us not to use violence and this is not conditional on the situation; thus applicable when being in the presence of someone being beaten or in danger. Our reaction should be self sacrificial not sacrificing someone else.

Jesus did not protect the helpless disciples spreading the word about Him. They were tortured and murdered. They could have live longer spreading the gospel.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Romans 12:17
Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. "Never" and "Anyone" are absolute terms
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Clearly violence is evil and to defeat it God says to use good
1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Ephesians 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma

Someone physically harming a stranger is an enemy of mine and I would expect them to be an enemy of anydecent person. God speaks much about loving our enemies and how we treat them.

I want as much as anyone to dish out retribution to evil, mean, violent people; I just don't see Jesus doing that.

I see your point regarding calling the police and have a problem with the whole idea because I don't have a good answer or understanding about it. I may call the police, I just don't know.

Nice Spotted collection of scripture ripped out of their contexts. That is known as raping the scriptures. a very important to always remember that the scriptures are penned but about 40 writers and all of them with the same message because some of them never knew one another but because God inspired them to write His Word to His creation, all sixty-six books are authored by God.

The rule here is, no scripture, no collection of scriptures and no passage of scriptures can ever be fully nor correctly understood without the light of all scripture shining it's light upon it/them.

You need to go back and see what the context of each verse is.

 

[reba]

When i read extreme pacifists i wonder if they have ever been in a situation that would call for action .

 

[WIP]

Nice Spotted collection of scripture ripped out of their contexts. That is known as raping the scriptures. a very important to always remember that the scriptures are penned but about 40 writers and all of them with the same message because some of them never knew one another but because God inspired them to write His Word to His creation, all sixty-six books are authored by God.

The rule here is, no scripture, no collection of scriptures and no passage of scriptures can ever be fully nor correctly understood without the light of all scripture shining it's light upon it/them.

You need to go back and see what the context of each verse is.

Bill, could you please provide your explanation using the context you say is missing? I think this is an intriguing topic and I'm not so sure Rance-Adams is that far off the mark and I'm not convinced that most, including myself, are not making judgment from emotion and feeling rather than truly understanding God's message. Whether one has or has not been in a situation doesn't seem to apply here. The question isn't how we would react in such a situation but rather how God would expect us to react.

I also don't think Rance-Adams is saying that we should stand aside and watch as another is being violated or beaten. What I'm hearing in his explanation is that we are to intervene but not to use violence to do so. We are to put ourselves in harm's way to help protect the others or in a best-case scenario, diffuse the situation if possible.

Here's an example from my past not-so-Christian life. I once had a party at my home where there was a lot of drinking going on. At one point two men began to get hostile toward each other. When the situation escalated I grabbed one of them from behind, wrapping my arms around him in such a way that it tied him up so he was unable to continue. I did not have to resort to violence in order to subdue the person and the situation was quickly diffused.

 

[jasonc]

Bill, could you please provide your explanation using the context you say is missing? I think this is an intriguing topic and I'm not so sure Rance-Adams is that far off the mark and I'm not convinced that most, including myself, are not making judgment from emotion and feeling rather than truly understanding God's message. Whether one has or has not been in a situation doesn't seem to apply here. The question isn't how we would react in such a situation but rather how God would expect us to react.

I also don't think Rance-Adams is saying that we should stand aside and watch as another is being violated or beaten. What I'm hearing in his explanation is that we are to intervene but not to use violence to do so. We are to put ourselves in harm's way to help protect the others or in a best-case scenario, diffuse the situation if possible.

Here's an example from my past not-so-Christian life. I once had a party at my home where there was a lot of drinking going on. At one point two men began to get hostile toward each other. When the situation escalated I grabbed one of them from behind, wrapping my arms around him in such a way that it tied him up so he was unable to continue. I did not have to resort to violence in order to subdue the person and the situation was quickly diffused.

If he was a wrestler then yes it would have been violent for you. Using pain compliance or methods of control is an act violence.

The counter to a bear hug I know ,one of two that I know depending on the attack involves a knee bar,basically snaping that joint to where he won't be walking fir a few weeKS after surgery.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Bill, could you please provide your explanation using the context you say is missing? I think this is an intriguing topic and I'm not so sure Rance-Adams is that far off the mark and I'm not convinced that most, including myself, are not making judgment from emotion and feeling rather than truly understanding God's message. Whether one has or has not been in a situation doesn't seem to apply here. The question isn't how we would react in such a situation but rather how God would expect us to react.

I also don't think Rance-Adams is saying that we should stand aside and watch as another is being violated or beaten. What I'm hearing in his explanation is that we are to intervene but not to use violence to do so. We are to put ourselves in harm's way to help protect the others or in a best-case scenario, diffuse the situation if possible.

Here's an example from my past not-so-Christian life. I once had a party at my home where there was a lot of drinking going on. At one point two men began to get hostile toward each other. When the situation escalated I grabbed one of them from behind, wrapping my arms around him in such a way that it tied him up so he was unable to continue. I did not have to resort to violence in order to subdue the person and the situation was quickly diffused.

Scripture does in fact tell us not to use violence and this is not conditional on the situation; thus applicable when being in the presence of someone being beaten or in danger. Our reaction should be self sacrificial not sacrificing someone else.

This chapter begins with with Jesus teaching that we are to put our wants and needs aside and to allow the Holy Spirit to live through us. It ends with the warning against the very thing that is happening today in the streets. It does not stand alone but rather needs the light of all scripture to begin to get a grip on what the verse is actually saying.

For instance if I tell one person on the end of a line of twelve people, and tell them all to whisper the same thing into the ear of the next perso n, by the time it reaches the last person I will be lucky if one of my original words can be found in what person twelve says they heard from person eleven.

Context, today, has been dropped from common usage and that should be a crime punishable by death. If I tell you it is raining little cat and puppy dogs out side, the first thing any person must deal with is the fact that I said it is raining. Then you move on to the kittens and puppy dogs. except we has some weather Phenomena such as a tornado. Logic, combined with context and we know i was saying it is raining very hard, at least if your Texan you know that.

 

[WIP]

So if an evil person is about to rape and kill you mother, wife, and daughter and it will take violence to stop him, you do what? You don't resist?
You see someone beating a child with a baseball bat and you don't resist?
A jihadist is shooting children in a schoolroom and you don't resist?

Are you kidding me?

I'd be interested in seeing where in Scripture it says or implies that we are to use whatever means or force necessary up to and possibly including deadly force to stop someone from harming another. I'm not finding any but I seem to find plenty about giving one's cloak when asked for a shirt, going the extra mile, turning the other cheek, loving one's enemies, not taking vengeance, etc. This seems to imply that if we are to love one another including our enemies and even die for our friends then it would seem fitting that the right thing to do is to put ourselves at risk to save another if that's what it takes.

This is not to say that I would be able to do what I'm saying but that is not the question. The question is what would God expect me to do?

 

[Jim Parker]

Scripture does in fact tell us not to use violence and this is not conditional on the situation; thus applicable when being in the presence of someone being beaten or in danger. Our reaction should be self sacrificial not sacrificing someone else.

Jesus did not protect the helpless disciples spreading the word about Him. They were tortured and murdered. They could have live longer spreading the gospel.

Matthew 5:39
But I say to you, do not resist an evil person
Luke 6:35
But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.
Romans 12:17
Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. "Never" and "Anyone" are absolute terms
Romans 12:21
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Clearly violence is evil and to defeat it God says to use good
1 Thessalonians 5:15
See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.
Romans 12:1
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Ephesians 5:1-2
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma

Someone physically harming a stranger is an enemy of mine and I would expect them to be an enemy of anydecent person. God speaks much about loving our enemies and how we treat them.

I want as much as anyone to dish out retribution to evil, mean, violent people; I just don't see Jesus doing that.

I see your point regarding calling the police and have a problem with the whole idea because I don't have a good answer or understanding about it. I may call the police, I just don't know.

Here's a passage or two you missed:
Jos 6:21 They devoted the city (Jericho) to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.
Jos 8:24 When Israel had finished slaughtering all the inhabitants of Ai in the open wilderness where they pursued them and all of them to the very last had fallen by the edge of the sword, all Israel returned to Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
Jos 10:28 And Joshua took Makke'dah on that day, and smote it and its king with the edge of the sword; he utterly destroyed every person in it, he left none remaining; and he did to the king of Makke'dah as he had done to the king of Jericho.
Jos 10:30 and the LORD gave it also and its king into the hand of Israel; and he smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it; he left none remaining in it; and he did to its king as he had done to the king of Jericho.
Jos 10:32 and the LORD gave Lachish into the hand of Israel, and he took it on the second day, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and every person in it, as he had done to Libnah.
Jos 10:35 and they took it on that day, and smote it with the edge of the sword; and every person in it he utterly destroyed that day, as he had done to Lachish.
Jos 10:37 and took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and its king and its towns, and every person in it; he left none remaining, as he had done to Eglon, and utterly destroyed it with every person in it.
Jos 10:39 and he took it with its king and all its towns; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left none remaining; as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king.
Jos 11:12 And all the cities of those kings, and all their kings, Joshua took, and smote them with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying them, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded.
Jos 11:14 And all the spoil of these cities and the cattle, the people of Israel took for their booty; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, and they did not leave any that breathed.

Why would God order that level of slaughter?
Gen 15:16 And they (Abraham's descendants) shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.
God was giving the Amorites about 500 years to repent of their detestable practices. They didn't.
What did they do?
Deu 12:31b ... for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

God also said to Israel: "You must purge the evil from among you." (DT 13:5; 17:7, 12; 19:19; 21:21; 22:21, 22, 24; 24:7)