Titles?

[Henry]

Matthew 23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


Jesus said not to use titles for one another, we are not to raise one of us over the other. We are all brothers, and yet we do not obey this. We call men pastor and teacher and even father.

Why?

This verse teaches that titles are wrong in the church and NEVER do we find the church ever using them, so where did they come from?

Right out of paganism, that is where. Oh I know you all get very upset when I say that, never the less it is very true and when the church finally realizes it we are all going to be much better off.

If this verse is not saying we should not use title, then what is it saying and where in the NT can we find verses that show the use of titles such as we use them today?

BEFORE you get started with Eph 4:11 that verse does not refere to any as Pastor or Teacher as a title, we have them to be sure but we do not lay a title and office on them.

You can find the words, but you can not find the modern practice.

I wonder how long this one will last, I have learned how fearfull most poeple are of modern church practice being challenge. Too bad really, it needs to be challenged. Even done away with....

 

[ChristineES]

I guess that every thing that Christians do must be pagan. :wink:

 

[Sothenes]

Matthew 23:7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.' 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.


Jesus said not to use titles for one another, we are not to raise one of us over the other. We are all brothers, and yet we do not obey this. We call men pastor and teacher and even father.

Why?

This verse teaches that titles are wrong in the church and NEVER do we find the church ever using them, so where did they come from?

Henry,

Can you show me where the word "title" or "titles" appears in a concordance? They don't appear because you added the word.

 

[ChristineES]

The words mother, father, sis, bro, mom, dad, uncle, aunt, grandma, grandpa, etc are all titles. Do I just start calling my mother "Peggy" instead of "mom"? I am sorry to be sarcastic, but sometimes I think I just have no choice. :roll: :-D

 

[stray bullet]

You mean, NT titles like, "Bishop", "Fathers", "Deacon" and "Apostle"?

 

[gingercat]

I guess that every thing that Christians do must be pagan. :wink:

Many of them are Christine. Don't be so feareful about finding out about the reality and the truth. We will be asked about our not being bold about finding out the truth.

We should be thankful for people who challenge to be more faithful and truthful to the Bible.

Cowardly is the first in the list of the sins. (Rev 21:8)

 

[Sothenes]

I guess that every thing that Christians do must be pagan. :wink:

Many of them are Christine.

Are you willing to go without your calendar?

Pagan Days

Moon's Day = Monday, Tew's Day = Tuesday, Woden's Day = Wednesday, Thor's Day = Thursday , Frei's Day = Friday , Saturn's Day = Saturday.

Does it suppose that because I have a calendar that I worship Roman gods? Correlation does not prove that I worship them no more than you worship paganism by having a calendar. The same goes with alot of alleged things.

 

[Lewis]

Pastor, bishop, elder, deacon, mother, father, sister, brother, it is ok to address these people as such. It is not right to call someone Reverend or the Right Reverend. Wich comes from the Catholics and filtered over in the Protestants.
The word Revewrend only appears one time in the Bible, and it is in the Psalms
I forgot where. But it refers to God, not man. No man is in reverence to God.

 

[Henry]

ChristineES

Yes, most of what we find in any average church is rooted in paganism.

Think about this, how quick prodestants are to accuse the catholics of pagan practices. While at the the same time they do the same thing.

Some one said the word "title" is not in the bible, well the idea is and that idea of giving leaders titles is gentile or pagan. The gentile or pagan Kings where known by titles or offices and they gave titles and offices to people who where under there charge, and so on and so on.

Jesus said that we are not be like that, and yet we have done that very thing. We make men lords of others, and give them titles and offices which have power and rule attached to them all the up to the Pope or the Denominational President.

Jesus said not to govern like the gentiles, the gentiles and pagans are the same people. We have created a gentile or pagan style of goverment making one man over others and so on right to the top guy.

So, when you hear Sr. Pastor, or Worship leader, or Denomination President, and so on. You are hearing paganism built right into our churches

For the one who said the word "title" is not in the bible, find for the words "Church Building"

 

[gingercat]

Think about this, how quick prodestants are to accuse the catholics of pagan practices. While at the the same time they do the same thing.

I am finding that out too. There are many of them.

 

[Sothenes]

So, when you hear Sr. Pastor, or Worship leader, or Denomination President, and so on. You are hearing paganism built right into our churches

Matthew 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

Matthew 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

"Sr. Pastor" (I am assuming you mean Senior Pastor) just means that there is an authority. Jesus never told the centurion that his authority structure was pagan. You are taking into your own hands something that Jesus didn't take into his own hands and that is blaming people for the authority structure.

 

[Henry]

Mark 10:41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42 Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

You will need to take your argument up with Jesus, he said this not me. He is clear that we are not lord authority over each other in the way the gentiles do. Which if you do a word study means he did not want us having heirachial systems, rather he wants us to be brothers.

Now, authority does not always mean being the ruler of another person. I have authority in my own church, but I am no ones ruler.

Even the Son of man came not to be served, but to serve others. Giving his life a randsom for many.

I am still amazed however that you would ( and others ) pick at me about a word. "Jesus did not call him pagan" and yet there is not "Church Building" by word or idea in the bible and that is OK? And there is not "Pastor of the church" or a job detail and yet that is OK? And you call men by titles and yet not one NT church leader was ever called by a title and that is OK?

 

[Guest]

Sometimes it's really fun to read posts such as these. :

 

[Sothenes]

Mark 10:41 When the ten heard about this, they became indignant with James and John. 42 Jesus called them together and said, "You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 43 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

You will need to take your argument up with Jesus, he said this not me. He is clear that we are not lord authority over each other in the way the gentiles do. Which if you do a word study means he did not want us having heirachial systems, rather he wants us to be brothers.

I'll let you explain 1 Timothy 3:5 then. "(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" You said that a pastor can't rule so if a pastor doesn't know how to rule then how can that pastor take care of the Church of God? I hope you have an answer for me but my answer is that there is a difference between Lording it over people and exercising oversight "episkopountes" from 1 Peter 5:1-2 and the word is translated

Wasn't Paul guilty of Lording it over men and women because he wrote to Titus to "set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:" Titus 1:5 If you are appointed then you have a position of authority to do something. Isn't Paul then guilty again in 1 Timothy 1:11 which says to 'command and teach'? Wouldn't it be wrong to teach 1 Timothy 3:4 because it says that a bishop must have 'his children in subjection". Explain what the verse means "Remember them which have the rule over you" (Hebrews 13:7) if we aren't supposed to have authority in the Church. You can rip a verse out of context like Mark 10:42 but you have a harder time harmonizing it with the rest of the Bible especially when overseer is translated 'Bishop'. I'm told to respect my elders because they are supposed to know better and the concept of a Senior pastor tells me that he is an overseer of other pastors. Jesus said,'follow me' and Paul said that they were an example. How many people could be an example to the Apostle Paul? Not many. That is why they have to lead with their example and you have to follow.

 

[Henry]

Pastor, bishop, elder, deacon, mother, father, sister, brother, it is ok to address these people as such. It is not right to call someone Reverend or the Right Reverend

Actually the terms pastor, bishop, and elder are interchangable and not titles but functions. Now I am fine with calling someone brother unless it used as a title, for example always refering to every man as brother so and so.

As for the rest of what you said I am with you.

 

[Henry]

1 Peter 5:1-3 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



1 Peter 5
To Elders and Young Men
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

 

[Henry]

Sothenes

I'll let you explain 1 Timothy 3:5 then. "(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" You said that a pastor can't rule so if a pastor doesn't know how to rule then how can that pastor take care of the Church of God?

Nothing in this verse about a Pastor.

there is a difference between Lording it over people and exercising oversight

I agree there is a difference.

Wasn't Paul guilty of Lording it over men and women

Nope he wasn’t, but so what. You don’t think that our modern “pastors†are like Paul do you? Oh and the verses you posted with this sentence, nothing about the “pastor†still not a single person called by a title at all.

Do a word study Hebrews 13:7 you will find that “rule over you†does not mean what you think it does.

the concept of a Senior pastor tells me that he is an overseer of other pastors

No one in the bible is called pastor, much less Sr. Pastor. This implies the ladder up leadership Jesus said not to have. We are all brothers said Jesus and he alone is the master.

But never the less you keep implying the word pastor where is not found.


1 Peter 5
To Elders and Young Men
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.


Ever notice that letter Paul wrote are addressed to the brothers, and not the leaders? And look at what he says “elders among you†still talking to the brethren of whom some where elders, included among the rest of the people and not above, over or somehow separate. Also note that the word elder is not used as an office or title.

Even Paul himself says he is a fellow elder, he did not say “Elder Paulâ€Â, wait wasn’t he an apostle, does that mean he had two offices. No, it means he served different functions.

Just like all the other elders did “be shepherds†and “serve as overseers†notice these are functions not titles, and it is the same guys doing them all. An elder was to be a shepherd and serve as an overseerer. But not lording it over them, which refers to a ladder up leadership system, but as example and so that is why we read the requirements of such people deal with the way they live their lives.

And I would also point out that they are to manage their homes well, because Gods plan for the church is that of a family and to meet in homes as a family would, and to relate as family does.

If you where actually understanding my argument, you would know that all those verses you posted support what I am saying. You are putting a pastor in them where there is none, and reading into them a form of governing that was nothing at all like the one they had.

 

[Sothenes]

Sothenes

I'll let you explain 1 Timothy 3:5 then. "(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" You said that a pastor can't rule so if a pastor doesn't know how to rule then how can that pastor take care of the Church of God?

Nothing in this verse about a Pastor.

[quote:575db] there is a difference between Lording it over people and exercising oversight

I agree there is a difference.

Wasn't Paul guilty of Lording it over men and women

Nope he wasn’t, but so what. You don’t think that our modern “pastors†are like Paul do you? Oh and the verses you posted with this sentence, nothing about the “pastor†still not a single person called by a title at all.

Do a word study Hebrews 13:7 you will find that “rule over you†does not mean what you think it does.

the concept of a Senior pastor tells me that he is an overseer of other pastors

No one in the bible is called pastor, much less Sr. Pastor. This implies the ladder up leadership Jesus said not to have. We are all brothers said Jesus and he alone is the master.

But never the less you keep implying the word pastor where is not found.


1 Peter 5
To Elders and Young Men
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseersâ€â€not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.


Ever notice that letter Paul wrote are addressed to the brothers, and not the leaders? And look at what he says “elders among you†still talking to the brethren of whom some where elders, included among the rest of the people and not above, over or somehow separate. Also note that the word elder is not used as an office or title.

Even Paul himself says he is a fellow elder, he did not say “Elder Paulâ€Â, wait wasn’t he an apostle, does that mean he had two offices. No, it means he served different functions.

Just like all the other elders did “be shepherds†and “serve as overseers†notice these are functions not titles, and it is the same guys doing them all. An elder was to be a shepherd and serve as an overseerer. But not lording it over them, which refers to a ladder up leadership system, but as example and so that is why we read the requirements of such people deal with the way they live their lives.

And I would also point out that they are to manage their homes well, because Gods plan for the church is that of a family and to meet in homes as a family would, and to relate as family does.

If you where actually understanding my argument, you would know that all those verses you posted support what I am saying. You are putting a pastor in them where there is none, and reading into them a form of governing that was nothing at all like the one they had.[/quote:575db]

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;"-Ephesians 4:11

Where exactly are "overseers" in this list? Where exactly are "pastors" in your church?

"BISHOP (Overseer)

1. episkopos (,1985), lit., 'an overseer' (epi, 'over,' skopeo, 'to look or watch'), whence Eng. 'bishop,' which whas precisely the same meaning, is found in Acts 20:28; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:7; 1 Pet. 2:25. See OVERSEER."-p.67, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words

"Interestingly, Peter cals Christ the 'Guardian' of the Christians in Asia Minor (1 Pet. 2:25; KJV 'bishop';NIV 'Overseer'). Elders may be involved in church administration (5:1), but Christ's church is really governed and supported by Christ himself (2:4-8). At Acts 1:20 'office' (Gk. episkope; KJV 'bishopric'; NIV 'place of leadership') refers to the legitimate apostolic succession of the deceased Judas"-The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary, Edited by Allen C. Myers

Again I ask the question as to where this office appears in Ephesians 4:11.

"Visitation.... The radical idea of the word is that of observing or inspecting. Hence..., an overseer or bishop. Visiting grows naturally out of this, as visitare from visere, to look at attentively. See Introduction, on Peter's emphasis upon sight; and compare behold, in this verse. The 'day of visitation' is the day of looking upon: 'When God shall look upon these wanderers, as a pastor over his flock, and shall become the overlooker or bishop of their souls' (ver. 25, Lumby)."-p.645-646 Vincent's Word Studies In The New Testament

The fact that a Greek Scholar like Vincent would understand that the verse means 'pastor' means that the Greek scholar is more qualified at understanding the verse than unqualified teaching from house churches since Pastor is the office in Ephesians 4:11.

 

[Henry]

Ephesians 4
Unity in the Body of Christ
1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spiritâ€â€just as you were called to one hope when you were called 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
7 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8 This is why it[a] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men." 9( What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[c]? 10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

These are gifts to the church, not offices and titled possitions and God has given them to us for the building up the body for works of service and to know Jesus.

The problem you are having is thinking that I am saying that we should not have such things, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that the modern church has twisted and pervereted them into things they are not. Namely church offices and titled posstions in an institution.

These gifts are functions men do naturally and not an office they hold. These men where not Called Evanglist so and so, or Teacher so and so. Oh, and they wheren't even in one place, these particular guys where travelors going all about, especially the first two.

Bottom line is that the IC has twisted this into something the bible knows nothing about, the IC has used the words but changed the meaning to justify the system men have built.

 

[Sothenes]

These are gifts to the church, not offices and titled possitions and God has given them to us for the building up the body for works of service and to know Jesus.

The problem you are having is thinking that I am saying that we should not have such things, I am not saying that at all.

I am saying that the modern church has twisted and pervereted them into things they are not. Namely church offices and titled posstions in an institution.

These gifts are functions men do naturally and not an office they hold. These men where not Called Evanglist so and so, or Teacher so and so. Oh, and they wheren't even in one place, these particular guys where travelors going all about, especially the first two.

Bottom line is that the IC has twisted this into something the bible knows nothing about, the IC has used the words but changed the meaning to justify the system men have built.

Some people believe that God is still giving these "pastors" as gifts. I've studied the verse (Ephesians 4:11) for a few years and I'm still learning about the verse. I emailed a scholar a while back and I learned a few more things about the verse. If you think it is simple, you haven't seen what I have seen.