jonathanbrickman0000
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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To Become Worthy?
- Thread starter jonathanbrickman0000
- Start date
- Sep 10, 2021
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Well give me the proof texts upon which you want to base this discussion on first.
Provide the main passages you believe teach on the subject.
- May 4, 2020
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There's two ways.
1) Never sin during your life span. Unfortunately, this is impossible for men.
2) Be given by God the gift of faith in Christ which will cause your sins to be imputed to Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21) and Christ's righteousness to be imputed to you thus making you "worthy" of Christ and heaven. (Philippians 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—)
RedPill
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- Nov 28, 2024
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"...the righteousness from God" is synonymous with Christian persecution, to the extreme of martyrdom - dying for one’s faith in Christ. These persecutions and afflictions make God’s people “worthy of the kingdom of God.”
"...we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:" (2 Thes. 1:4-5).
Since “worthy” (Greek axioō) is to be “deserving,” then it is clear that “persecutions and afflictions” are the avenue through which Christians are made worthy.
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come....Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Tim. 3:1, 11, 12).
Help me, Father, to become worthy of suffering...
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live2blieve
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- Oct 16, 2024
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That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness (Colossians 1:10,11).
- May 4, 2020
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You can present your works to God for your justification. As for me, I will present the righteousness of Christ for my justification. God says He is unmoved by what we do.
- Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine.
- Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]”
- Psalm 33:15 He Who fashions the hearts of them all, Who considers all their doings.
The works of martyrdom done for God are not actually initially caused by oneself, but by the Spirit living in said Christian. So, again you are not worthy (deserving) in this works salvation.
- John 15:5 I am the Vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him bears much fruit, for [otherwise] apart from Me [that is, cut off from vital union with Me] you can do nothing.
- Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not.
jonathanbrickman0000
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Well, to be as candid as I know how, that's not what I do, how I think, what I seek. I am not interested in proof texts, and I do not believe that passages teach. I am interested in what the Lord has Personally said, the very words He has Personally used. And I shall await Him, not passages, to teach.Well give me the proof texts upon which you want to base this discussion on first.
Provide the main passages you believe teach on the subject.
With this in mind, I find the following:
37 He who is cherishing father or mother above Me, is not worthy of Me, and he who is cherishing son or daughter above Me, is not worthy of Me, 38 and whoever does not receive his cross and follow after Me, is not worthy of Me.
39 He who found his life will lose it, and he who lost his life for My sake will find it.
40 He who is receiving you receives Me, and he who is receiving Me receives Him who sent Me; 41 he who is receiving a prophet in the name of a prophet, will receive a prophet’s reward, and he who is receiving a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, will receive a righteous man’s reward, 42 and whoever may give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, truly I say to you, he may not lose his reward.”
Matthew 10:37-42
34 And Jesus answering said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage, 35 but those accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection that is out of the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage; 36 for neither are they able to die anymore—for they are like messengers—and they are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36
34 And take heed to yourselves lest your hearts may be weighed down with carousing, and drunkenness, and anxieties of life, and suddenly that day may come on you, 35 for it will come as a snare on all those dwelling on the face of all the earth, 36 watch, then, in every season, praying that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
Luke 21:34-36
RedPill
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- Nov 28, 2024
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Being martyr'd is not a work. It is a persecution. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
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A work according to the dictionary is a mental or physical activity to accomplish a purpose. You said the purpose was to:
Your statement logically indicates you believe the work of getting martyred to accomplish the purpose of being worthy of heaven (salvation). It's salvation by works. Maybe you think differently, but your words in your post support salvation by what you do.
RedPill
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Being martyred is someone else's "work" carried out on me - not a work I did or asked for, for whatever reason. Such persecution is an expected albeit unpleasant reality of the believer's position - it's Scripture.
"Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured" (2 Tim. 3).
[However, I do look forward to wearing that white robe!]
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- Sep 10, 2021
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Without being directed to a specific passage, this would have been my answer right here as well. The term was most associated with enduring persecution without denying His name, i.e. "I come to send a sword, and mans enemies shall be those of his own household... He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me."
- Sep 10, 2021
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I don't think it's a work either, Freddy. I think denouncing Christ rather than continuing to identify as His follower to save one's skin or one's reputation is simply doing what it takes to not nullify the grace of God. Of course, this gets into OSAS, and whether a person can nullify the grace of God over their lives, but for me the warnings against what will happen to those who denounce Him become an exercise I futility if such a thing is not possible anyway.
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None of us are worthy of Christ, but by God's grace through faith does Jesus make us worthy to be called a child of God to all who will believe and confess Him as Lord and Savior.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
- May 4, 2020
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I see your point. But looking closer at cause and effect clarifies the matter IMO.
From the standpoint of effect as in the effect of salvation then I agree that one that is saved would/might let himself be martyred/persecuted for Christ.
But, I read the post that said: "These persecutions and afflictions make God’s people “worthy of the kingdom of God.” This statement does not address the effect of salvation; rather, it addresses the cause of salvation. The statement says suffering afflictions make one worthy (is the cause of) salvation. No one is "worthy" of heaven via their own merit. We are saved by Christ's merit and His mercy to distribute said merit. The Spirit in a saved individual causes him to obey though the flesh and Spirit are at odds.
Aside: Maybe I am misreading or maybe he didn't say what he meant to say. Maybe I'm splitting hairs.
- Apr 2, 2003
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Where does the Bible say that? There is only one instance I can find in the entire Bible that mentions "the righteousness from God," and not every version has it, including the KJV.
Php 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— (ESV)
The HCSB is the only version that has it twice, there and in Romans:
Rom 10:3 Because they disregarded the righteousness from God and attempted to establish their own righteousness, they have not submitted themselves to God's righteousness.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
In neither context is Christian persecution, much less martyrdom, in view. It's all about salvation, or "becoming worthy."
"The righteous judgment of God" is not at all the same as "the righteousness from God."
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That's kinda flipping the script again though, Freddy. I don't think the gaining of salvation is ever in view here, only the potential of losing it. For me, the concept being taught here is that we are made members of the household of God by grace (and purely by grace), but to be counted worthy to remain as such demands that we not denounce His name in the face of opposition and affliction.
Bruce.Leiter
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- Oct 12, 2024
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"The righteousness from God"--Are you saying, Free, that if a Christian isn't persecuted, he isn't a true believer and doesn't have God's righteousness? Let's look at the full context of Romans 3:21 as to who receives God's righteousness:
Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
It's not just martyrs but all true believers who receive God's righteousness through his justification (verses 22, 24, and 26). "Righteousness of God" and "martyrdom" are not synonymous. We will all suffer persecution by the devil, which God uses to mature our faith to become more and more worthy of our future inheritance, but we don't, therefore, have anything to be proud of, since God brought such good out of our struggles.
- Sep 10, 2021
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Hello again, Bruce. It looks like you were trying to address Free about that post you quoted, but you didn't actually tag him when you did so or the text with his name on it would show up in a lighter color. If you don't actually tag him he may never see it, so the way you want to do this is by typing the @ symbol, immediately followed by his site name. That should bring attention to the post you want him to see.
Blessings,
- H
- Apr 2, 2003
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No, of course not. If anything, that is what RedPill was saying. What did I say that would make you think that?
The argument was made that '"...the righteousness from God" is synonymous with Christian persecution, to the extreme of martyrdom,' but that is nowhere to be found in Scripture. My point was that the righteousness of God is what makes one worthy in the first place and it isn’t exclusive to martyrs nor synonymous with Christian persecution or martyrdom.
If "the righteousness from God" is synonymous with anything, it's salvation and being a follower of Christ, which should lead to persecution and possible martyrdom, if we're truly doing what Scripture commands.
That fully agrees with what I previously stated (unless I mistyped or forgot a word if I reworded a sentence).