To: Him that is not here with us today.

[Sparkey]

Called: "The 2nd Song of Moses" (Deut 29 -LITV)

These are the Words of the covenant which Jehovah commanded Moses to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab, besides the covenant which He made with them in Horeb.

• And Moses called to all Israel, and said to them, You have seen all that Jehovah did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants, and to all his land. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• Your eyes have seen the great trials, the signs, and those great miracles. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• Yet Jehovah has not given to you a heart to know, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, until this day. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• And I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your garments have not worn out from off you, and your sandal has not worn away off your foot. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• You have not eaten bread, and you have not drunk wine or fermented drink, so that you might know that I am Jehovah your God.[/*:m:21e4n6gl]

• And you came into this place, and Sihon the king of Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, came out to meet us, to battle. And we struck them, and took their land, and gave it for an inheritance to the Reubenites, and to the Gadites, and for the half tribe of Manasseh. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• Then pay attention to the Words of this covenant, and do them, that you may act wisely in all that you do. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• You are standing today, all of you, before Jehovah your God; your rulers, your tribes your elders, and your officers, every man of Israel; your little ones, your wives, and your alien who is in the midst of your camps, from the woodchopper to the one drawing your water; so that you should enter into the covenant of Jehovah your God, and into His oath, which Jehovah your God is making with you today; so that He may establish you today for a people to Himself, and He Himself be your God, as He has spoken to you, and as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham to Isaac, and to Jacob. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]

• And I am not making this covenant and this oath with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before Jehovah your God; and also with him that is not here with us today. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• For you know how we lived in the land of Egypt, and how we came through the nations through which you passed. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]

• And you have seen their detestable things, and their idols of wood and stone, silver and gold, which were among them; that there not be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turns away today from Jehovah our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you today a root that bears gall and wormwood; and it happens when he hears the words of this curse, that he should bless himself in his heart,[/*:m:21e4n6gl]

saying, "I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty."

• Jehovah will not be willing to forgive him, for then Jehovah's anger and His zeal shall smoke, and His zeal shall be against that man, and all the curses written in this book shall lie upon him. And Jehovah shall blot out his name from under the heavens. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• And Jehovah shall set him apart to evil, out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the Law; so that the generation to come, your sons who rise after you, and the foreigner who comes in from a distant land, shall say when they see the plagues of that land, and its sicknesses which Jehovah shall send into it, [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• The whole land shall be burned with brimstone and salt; it shall not be sown, nor shall it sprout; nor shall there be any herb in it. It shall be like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboim, which Jehovah overthrew in His anger and in His fury. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• And all the nations shall say, Why has Jehovah done this to this land? For what is the heat of this great anger? [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of Jehovah, the God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• For they went and served other gods, and worshiped them, gods which they did not know, and who had not divided to them any portion. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• And the anger of Jehovah was kindled against this land to bring on it all the curses that are written in this book. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]
• And Jehovah rooted them out of their land in anger and wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day. [/*:m:21e4n6gl]

• The secret things belong to Jehovah our God; and the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may do all the Words of this Law.

• And I am not making this covenant and this oath with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before Jehovah your God; and also with him that is not here with us today.

:amen

 

[whirlwind]

You are standing today, all of you, before Jehovah your God; your rulers, your tribes your elders, and your officers, every man of Israel; your little ones, your wives, and your alien who is in the midst of your camps, from the woodchopper to the one drawing your water; so that you should enter into the covenant of Jehovah your God, and into His oath, which Jehovah your God is making with you today; so that He may establish you today for a people to Himself, and He Himself be your God, as He has spoken to you, and as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham to Isaac, and to Jacob. [/list]

• And I am not making this covenant and this oath with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before Jehovah your God; and also with him that is not here with us today.
  

• 
  
  
  :amen We stand TODAY. We are Israel. We are His People.....and, we didn't have to be with Him that day. :yes

 

[Sparkey]

:amen We stand TODAY. We are Israel. We are His People.....and, we didn't have to be with Him that day. :yes

This too is exactly as I read it. In as much as we [Gentiles] are able to call ourselves His chosen - so also this. It's a little scary and we've heard about the "Fear of the Lord" - and that we serve a living GOD - and that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of our living God - but yet, will we seek to withhold ourselves in this?

[attachment=0:2a3tij65]image002.jpg[/attachment:2a3tij65]

Judgment comes first to the House of God, yes? My heart has cried for His Judgment, welcomed His work into my life and it is truly live-changing (and yes terrifying too). I still need this and trust our God and am learning to say "JUDGMENT TO ME FIRST (mixed with mercy - for Who can stand against Thee?)"

The only alternative scares me worse; to be found amongst those who have said in their hearts:
"I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty." <---- that sounds like the voice of an anti-christ spirit, yes?

Growing bold we declare, "I thank God to be counted & numbered amongst the saints here." (even as we continue to throw off and cast down that which so easily besets us as we RUN to Him, our LORD).

Submitted in love,
~a timid sparrow
<learning to trust>

 

[whirlwind]

:amen We stand TODAY. We are Israel. We are His People.....and, we didn't have to be with Him that day. :yes

This too is exactly as I read it. In as much as we [Gentiles] are able to call ourselves His chosen - so also this. It's a little scary and we've heard about the "Fear of the Lord" - and that we serve a living GOD - and that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hand of our living God - but yet, will we seek to withhold ourselves in this?

[attachment=0:35czzjeo]image002.jpg[/attachment:35czzjeo]

Judgment comes first to the House of God, yes? My heart has cried for His Judgment, welcomed His work into my life and it is truly live changing (and yes terrifying too). I still need this and trust our God and am learning to say "JUDGMENT TO ME FIRST (mixed with mercy - for Who can stand against Thee?)"

The only alternative scares me worse; to be found amongst those who have said in their hearts, "I shall have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my heart, to snatch away the drunken with the thirsty." <---- that sounds like the voice of an anti-christ spirit, yes?

Submitted in love,
~a timid sparrow <learning to trust>

In looking at your "Holy of Holies" drawing I saw something for the first time....thank you. The new and living veil is His flesh [Hebrews 10:20]. The veil that was torn "from top to bottom," which was the carnal way to enter, is gone and now it is through His flesh, His Word, that we find entry.

 

[Sparkey]

[youtube:325jlwzl]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wutmEjdbedE[/youtube:325jlwzl]

The Holy Spirit has joined Our Apostle's voice
to the chorus of the 2nd Song of Moses
(when he spoke of the Covenant which The LORD made with Israel in Horeb: (2Co 3:4-18 -LITV))

• "And we have such confidence through Christ toward God; not that we are sufficient of ourselves to reason out anything as being out of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God, who also made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of letter, but of Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.[/*:m:325jlwzl]

• But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, [Ex. 34:34] how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory! [/*:m:325jlwzl]

• For if the ministry of condemnation was glory, much rather the ministry of righteousness abounds in glory. [/*:m:325jlwzl]
• For even that which has been made glorious has not been made glorious in this respect, because of the surpassing glory. [/*:m:325jlwzl]
• For if the thing done away was through glory, much rather the thing remaining is in glory.[/*:m:325jlwzl]

• Then having such hope, we use much boldness. And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away. [Ex. 34:35] [/*:m:325jlwzl]

• But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ. [/*:m:325jlwzl]
• But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart. [/*:m:325jlwzl]
• But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [Ex. 34:34] [/*:m:325jlwzl]

• And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [/*:m:325jlwzl]
• But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lords Spirit." [/*:m:325jlwzl]

Paul spoke of the Covenant from Mount Horeb -- What we see here is part of how God "snuck" us in to the "Children of Israel". "The 2nd Song of Moses" is about the Covenant which Jehovah commanded him to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab. This turns us toward thinking about Ruth, the Moabitess (a GENTILE!) and the grandmother (great grandmother?) of the first to be a King-Priest: King David himself! So much richness to be dug here. Everywhere we turn --another nugget! King David was only allowed to rule over the land of Moab because he was an heir of that land. There truly is no great heritage in endless genealogies as Paul has declared so boldly. Our faith is firmly rooted in our God and Christ, Jesus our Lord.

One Body, One Spirit!
:amen

~Sparrow
Unto us is given to 'gaze unto the end...'
BEHOLD! I have shown the end from the beginning that you may know that I am God. :yes

 

[whirlwind]

[youtube:e3ofdl8y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wutmEjdbedE[/youtube:e3ofdl8y]

The Holy Spirit has joined Our Apostle's voice
to the chorus of the 2nd Song of Moses
(when he spoke of the Covenant which The LORD made with Israel in Horeb: (2Co 3:4-18 -LITV))

• "And we have such confidence through Christ toward God; not that we are sufficient of ourselves to reason out anything as being out of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God, who also made us able ministers of a new covenant, not of letter, but of Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit makes alive.[/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

I have quoted that verse so many times the past few days. The Spirit certainly does "make alive."

• But if the ministry of death having been engraved in letters in stone was with glory, so as that the sons of Israel could not gaze into "the face of Moses" because of the glory of his face, which was to cease, [Ex. 34:34] how much rather the ministry of the Spirit will be in glory! [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

• For if the ministry of condemnation was glory, much rather the ministry of righteousness abounds in glory. [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]
• For even that which has been made glorious has not been made glorious in this respect, because of the surpassing glory. [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]
• For if the thing done away was through glory, much rather the thing remaining is in glory.[/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

• Then having such hope, we use much boldness. And not as "Moses, who put a veil over his face," for the sons of Israel not to gaze at the end of the thing being done away. [Ex. 34:35] [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

"We use much boldness." It is bold, or as my KJV reads...we use great plainness of speech, (outspokenness), when the Spirit opens understanding of a verse. Many do not understand or don't wish to accept things they hear if it isn't the letter. But, I believe we must speak boldly for it is meant for someone's ears even if others "thoughts are hardened." I have learned from directly seeing new revelations on the page but I have also learned so much from others as they share what the Spirit has taught them. This is not by accident! It is part of Him whispering in our ear...go this way.

• But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ. [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]
• But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart. [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]
• But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [Ex. 34:34] [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

"It turns," confused me for a moment. A side note in my Bible explains it as "when the heart of Israel turns." I agree with that.

• And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]
• But we all with our face having been unveiled, having beheld the glory of the Lord in a mirror, are being changed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lords Spirit." [/*:m:e3ofdl8y]

Paul spoke of the Covenant from Mount Horeb -- What we see here is part of how God "snuck" us in to the "Children of Israel". "The 2nd Song of Moses" is about the Covenant which Jehovah commanded him to make with the sons of Israel in the land of Moab. This turns us toward thinking about Ruth, the Moabitess (a GENTILE!) and the grandmother (great grandmother?) of the first to be a King-Priest: King David himself! So much richness to be dug here. Everywhere we turn --another nugget! King David was only allowed to rule over the land of Moab because he was an heir of that land. There truly is no great heritage in endless genealogies as Paul has declared so boldly. Our faith is firmly rooted in our God and Christ, Jesus our Lord.

One Body, One Spirit!
:amen

~Sparrow
Unto us is given to 'gaze unto the end...'
BEHOLD! I have shown the end from the beginning that you may know that I am God. :yes

[/quote]


That is a verse I need to remember in some of the ongoing discussions concerning preterism (if they decide to keep it ongoing). Yes, He has shown the end over and over again in types and shadows.

You mentioned that Ruth was a Gentile but if she was of Moab...wouldn't that make her Hebrew? She wasn't of Israel but, being Lot's descendant she was Hebrew. I'll have to spend some time with it tomorrow.

Thank you again Sparrow...terrific post.

 

[Sparkey]

I suspect that I didn't say that right, did I?
I'll look with you because I'm sure that the spirit of what I wrote is true. Apologies in advance for my ignorance though -- and I was trying to speak so clearly too!

[*Edit after looking] Hint: Trace the Promise from Abraham, through Issac to Jacob (Israel) - not through his nephew (wasn't Lot called Abraham's nephew? - Jewish relationships can sometimes be confusing). Technically speaking Abram and Lot were both Chaldean, having been from the land of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia)*. Abraham is at the root of the world's three largest monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Over 3 billion people in the modern world cite Abraham as the "father" of their monotheist religion(s). Lot's "pedigree" isn't discussed much but it's very relevant to the discussion though (see Gen 11:27). We see the fist mention of drunkenness when we turn our eyes to Lot and the question of Ruth's origin. How great is our God? In Goodness? In Mercy? In His own Justice (for only He is Just) and in His completeness!

Thanks also for your help and I'll be grateful for your correction when it comes. Let me be quick to say that I'm sure it will --I think I've said it before, you may be like God is to me, showing my folly is okay. BTW, I am an unlearned man never having rec'd any diploma from man. I didn't get my G.E.D. until after I turned 50 years of age and I am still studying while learning. I have been to several colleges; have been ordained too, but that is only so that I can perform marriage ceremonies.

• But their thoughts were hardened, for until the present time the same veil remains on the reading of the Old Covenant, not being unveiled, that it is being done away in Christ. [/*:m:1vu46dac]
• But until today, when Moses is being read, a veil lies on their heart. [/*:m:1vu46dac]
• But whenever it turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [Ex. 34:34] [/*:m:1vu46dac]

"It turns," confused me for a moment. A side note in my Bible explains it as "when the heart of Israel turns." I agree with that.

Yes. And by extension whenever anybody (even today) reads the old Covenant without the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- that same veil is placed on hearts. When their (or our) hearts turn [to Christ] --the veil is lifted. Oftentimes the question is one of antecedents. "What turns?" Hearts turn (hopefully to Him).

I very much like the "story of Lot and Ruth" though because it reminds me of my walk with Christ. It would be a shame to me to speak fully of my drunkenness and sin but when my view shifts to Jesus through David's great-grandmother, Ruth - and what God has done, even that veil lifts up off of me and again my heart is filled with PRAISE. Sometimes (believe it or not) I am struck dumb and cannot speak except, trembling, to say His holy Name. With this view only may I sing the 2nd Song of Moses. With this view also do I sing what we can see in the book of Revelation about the saints who sing the Song of Moses & the Song of the Lamb. "GREAT and MARVELOUS:"

[youtube:1vu46dac]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyUTqr2XbeQ[/youtube:1vu46dac]

~Sparrow

There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him. And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. And he answered them, saying, 'Who is my mother, or my brethren?' And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said:
"Behold ..."*


______________
Footnotes /// Sources /// Annotations:
*LookLex Encyclopaedia http://i-cias.com/e.o/abraham.htm
*The Good News by the Holy Spirit through Mark 3:31-35 (KJV) ~as truncated by me for emphasis

Link to the Top of the Page & the text of "The 2nd Song of Moses"
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39038&p=470717#p470427

 

[whirlwind]

I suspect that I didn't say that right, did I?
I'll look with you because I'm sure that the spirit of what I wrote is true. Apologies in advance for my ignorance though -- and I was trying to speak so clearly too!

[*Edit after looking] Hint: Trace the Promise from Abraham, through Issac to Jacob (Israel) - not through his nephew (wasn't Lot called Abraham's nephew? - Jewish relationships can sometimes be confusing). Technically speaking Abram and Lot were both Chaldean, having been from the land of the Chaldees (Mesopotamia)*. Abraham is at the root of the world's three largest monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, Islam. Over 3 billion people in the modern world cite Abraham as the "father" of their monotheist religion(s). Lot's "pedigree" isn't discussed much but it's very relevant to the discussion though (see Gen 11:27). We see the fist mention of drunkenness when we turn our eyes to Lot and the question of Ruth's origin. How great is our God? In Goodness? In Mercy? In His own Justice (for only He is Just) and in His completeness!

Yes, the spirit of what you wrote is true. :yes As far as the rest, I don't know much about it Sparrow but I can tell you what I was taught and then...we can make up our minds. The promise was through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Jacob, becoming Israel, is the father of the tribes. Neither Abraham nor Isaac are Israel...although Israel is from them. They are Hebrew though.

Hebrew - This word first occurs as given to Abram by the Canaanites [Gen.14:13], because he had crossed the Euphrates. The name is also derived from 'Eber, meaning...."beyond, on the other side." Abram and his posterity being called Hebrews in order to express a distinction between the races east and west of the euphrates. The term Israelite was used by the Jews of themselves among themselves; the term Hebrew was the name by which they were known to foreigners.....Smith's Bible Dictionary

Abram and those with him were instructed by God to "get thee out of thy country unto a land that I will shew thee," and so began the journey of the Hebrews crossing over on their/our search for the promised land.

Abram, although being termed the first Hebrew was of Shem, of Noah, of direct lineage to Adam. [Genesis 11:19] Lot, being the son of Abram's brother was also not only Shemitic but, as he too crossed the Euphrates with Abram, was Hebrew. So, the promise was definitely not through Lot and his offspring (until Ruth) for...they are not Israel, but they are Hebrew and if Hebrew then they are not Gentile. Or, so I have been taught. However, as Ruth (a Moabite through her Hebrew ancestor Lot), was in the direct lineage to Christ, that Hebrew line was added to that of the "promised Seed."

Remember too, in the "drunkenness topic," that there was one mentioned before Lot. [Genesis 9:20-21] Our Father tells us that a little wine is good for us but humans seem to overdo everything. With me it's chocolate

Thanks also for your help and I'll be grateful for your correction when it comes. Let me be quick to say that I'm sure it will --I think I've said it before, you may be like God is to me, showing my folly is okay. BTW, I am an unlearned man never having rec'd any diploma from man. I didn't get my G.E.D. until after I turned 50 years of age and I am still studying while learning. I have been to several colleges; have been ordained too, but that is only so that I can perform marriage ceremonies.

I must say....that paragraph comes as a real surprise. Your talent with the written word certainly is in opposition to your background. You are to be commended and demonstrate that a diploma from man doesn't make one "unlearned." You went to colleges in order to be ordained just to perform marriage ceremonies? That sounds like a story in and of itself.

 

[Osgiliath]

When someone uses the term "anti-Semite", referring to the Jews it is a misnomer, because a "Semite" denotes a descendent of "Shem" (one of Noah's three son's) - i.e. "Shemite". When you say someone is anti-Semitic, technically it means they are "anti" many races (including Arabs through Ishmael - among others). The descendents of Abraham (and his family, Nahor, Haran - i.e. Lot) are all Semites. The word Hebrew is a derivative of the name Eber or Heber (meaning, "the region beyond"), who was the great grandson of Shem. Six generations down the line from Eber/Heber, came Abraham. Whether you believe the Jews of today are who they say they are or not, to believe they are the only Hebrews, or the only Semites is not correct. They (if you believe them) are descendents of one son (tribe) of Jacob (Israel), grandson of Abraham. Remember, Abraham and all of his siblings were Semites. Isaac and Ishmael (Arabs) were Semites, Jacob (Israel) was a Semite, and all of Jacob's sons (not just JUDAH = JEW) were Semites. Also, why do Jews (of Judah) claim they are the only chosen people (Israel) when they are just ONE TRIBE out of twelve? Are not the other 11 Tribes part of Israel also? What happened to them after the invasion of the Assyrians? Where are they now?

Here's a few cool little family trees to check out:

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1656/gen ... omises.gif

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3901/familytreed.gif

 

[Sparkey]

I have been guilty of not keeping to the topic and "wandering" around in this thread.
I should report myself so Vic C. could come in and stamp a totopic tattoo on my head.

But before I do that, I'm here saying that I very very much enjoy reading and learning and agreeing with those who have posted here.
Link to the Top of the Page & the text of "The 2nd Song of Moses"
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39038&p=470717#p470427


~Sparrow

21 He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

I like the gentle flow that is being established between. Within this my "guard" is let down and I can better receive corrections. Let all be done for the glory of our Father, yes? When I mentioned Lot being seduced my thought formed around what has been termed "The rule of first mention". It is a general principle to consider the fruits of various things from when they are first mentioned in the Bible. Another way of saying is, "God shows the end from the beginning". I love chocolate also so I don't disagree but uncovering the nakedness of man in the way that is described is ungodly. Making our hearts bare to each other though is the right of it, yes?

Okay - another thought "story" occurs to me. It's yet another "digression" but I have a point in mentinoing it and want to pay you (and by extension the Holy Spirit) a compliment. Have you seen the movie where Julia Roberts was an undercover FBI agent at a beauty pageant? William Shatner (Captain Kirk) was a guest star in it? I hope so, otherwise this won't make as much sense. There was a running joke throughout the movie about how beauty pageant contestants would always include or conclude the spoken Question and Answer section by saying they wanted "World Peace". It was trite and true and when it came time for "Miss Freebush" to say her goodbyes she also concluded with a statement about "World Peace".

The teaching here about who the Hebrews are would include Ishmael, and all the sons of Abraham. We know that Abraham had two wives Sarah and Hagar, the bond and the free. Discussions surrounding Lot and Abraham are hotly debated today and throughout history. If all were able to zoom back the view and consider ourselves "fellow Hebrews" as is suggested - could we not be considered Beauty Pageant Winners, having solved the issue of World Peace?

Asking and Knocking and Seeking together is very good in my sight. And speaking of sight, do we really need two eyes to gain proper perspective? We do. Thanks again for the blessing.

godspeed Whirlwind! (and thanks for your contribution to World Peace also, Osgiliath, honorary winner of the title Miss World! (like me) - pardon me though because we haven't formally met - but I hope to look back to this and maybe say, "Well met!" -- to briefly answer your question, "Where are they?" They are the Jewish Diaspora, yes?)

~Sparrow

Consider the flow of this conversation (I believe directed by the Holy Spirit) within the very serious topic of the 2nd Song of Moses! We are a peculiar goyim.

~Sparrow

 

[whirlwind]

When someone uses the term "anti-Semite", referring to the Jews it is a misnomer, because a "Semite" denotes a descendent of "Shem" (one of Noah's three son's) - i.e. "Shemite". When you say someone is anti-Semitic, technically it means they are "anti" many races (including Arabs through Ishmael - among others). The descendents of Abraham (and his family, Nahor, Haran - i.e. Lot) are all Semites. The word Hebrew is a derivative of the name Eber or Heber (meaning, "the region beyond"), who was the great grandson of Shem. Six generations down the line from Eber/Heber, came Abraham.

Hi Osgiliath, It is strange to me why descendants of Shem are termed Semite. It seems that it should be Shemite. In a book I read the author did use Shemite and I occasionaly will say Shemitic.

Whether you believe the Jews of today are who they say they are or not, to believe they are the only Hebrews, or the only Semites is not correct. They (if you believe them) are descendents of one son (tribe) of Jacob (Israel), grandson of Abraham. Remember, Abraham and all of his siblings were Semites. Isaac and Ishmael (Arabs) were Semites, Jacob (Israel) was a Semite, and all of Jacob's sons (not just JUDAH = JEW) were Semites. Also, why do Jews (of Judah) claim they are the only chosen people (Israel) when they are just ONE TRIBE out of twelve? Are not the other 11 Tribes part of Israel also? What happened to them after the invasion of the Assyrians? Where are they now?

The Jews (Judah and Benjamin) as well as Christians don't make the distinction God does when He tells us that the house of Judah (Jews) and the house of Israel split after the reign of Solomon and are still separate....all twelve are Israel but only two are Jewish.

The ten northern tribes, taken by the Assyrians, never returned. As Sparrow wrote...they are the diaspora. I believe they are today's Christians for.....


Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

He found us.

Here's a few cool little family trees to check out:

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/1656/gen ... omises.gif

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3901/familytreed.gif

Thank you....I'll have to check them out on my computer at work. This one just freezes up when I click on a link.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by whirlwind
I believe they are today's Christians

Hi whirlwind.

So do I (or maybe better said; Christian Nations) Of course the spiritual inheritors is a different (and far more significant) matter altogether. But a study of the migrations make for a most rewarding experience. Has occupied the bulk of my time and research for the last decade or so. Can be a controversial subject to some :o. Handle with care (I speak from experience) :D.

 

[whirlwind]

Originally posted by whirlwind
I believe they are today's Christians

Hi whirlwind.

So do I (or maybe better said; Christian Nations) Of course the spiritual inheritors is a different (and far more significant) matter altogether. But a study of the migrations make for a most rewarding experience. Has occupied the bulk of my time and research for the last decade or so. Can be a controversial subject to some :o. Handle with care (I speak from experience) :D.

:yes "Handle with care" is right. It can/has caused serious disputes and I too "speak from experience!" But, I agree in that it is a fascinating topic and...I also agree that "Christian nations" is the better way to phrase it.

 

[whirlwind]

I have been guilty of not keeping to the topic and "wandering" around in this thread.
I should report myself so Vic C. could come in and stamp a totopic tattoo on my head.

But before I do that, I'm here saying that I very very much enjoy reading and learning and agreeing with those who have posted here.
Link to the Top of the Page & the text of "The 2nd Song of Moses"
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=39038&p=470717#p470427


~Sparrow

21 He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

I like the gentle flow that is being established between. Within this my "guard" is let down and I can better receive corrections. Let all be done for the glory of our Father, yes? When I mentioned Lot being seduced my thought formed around what has been termed "The rule of first mention". It is a general principle to consider the fruits of various things from when they are first mentioned in the Bible. Another way of saying is, "God shows the end from the beginning". I love chocolate also so I don't disagree but uncovering the nakedness of man in the way that is described is ungodly. Making our hearts bare to each other though is the right of it, yes?

I'm going to veer off topic for a moment too. You may be aware of this already but many aren't and somehow believe that Noah cursed his grandson Canaan because his son Ham "uncovered" his nakedness. It never made much sense to me that Noah would become so angry and curse a family member because they saw his nude body. That phrase has another meaning as explained in [Leviticus 20:11].

Okay - another thought "story" occurs to me. It's yet another "digression" but I have a point in mentinoing it and want to pay you (and by extension the Holy Spirit) a compliment. Have you seen the movie where Julia Roberts was an undercover FBI agent at a beauty pageant? William Shatner (Captain Kirk) was a guest star in it? I hope so, otherwise this won't make as much sense. There was a running joke throughout the movie about how beauty pageant contestants would always include or conclude the spoken Question and Answer section by saying they wanted "World Peace". It was trite and true and when it came time for "Miss Freebush" to say her goodbyes she also concluded with a statement about "World Peace".

The teaching here about who the Hebrews are would include Ishmael, and all the sons of Abraham. We know that Abraham had two wives Sarah and Hagar, the bond and the free. Discussions surrounding Lot and Abraham are hotly debated today and throughout history. If all were able to zoom back the view and consider ourselves "fellow Hebrews" as is suggested - could we not be considered Beauty Pageant Winners, having solved the issue of World Peace?

Asking and Knocking and Seeking together is very good in my sight. And speaking of sight, do we really need two eyes to gain proper perspective? We do. Thanks again for the blessing.

godspeed Whirlwind! (and thanks for your contribution to World Peace also, Osgiliath, honorary winner of the title Miss World! (like me) - pardon me though because we haven't formally met - but I hope to look back to this and maybe say, "Well met!" -- to briefly answer your question, "Where are they?" They are the Jewish Diaspora, yes?)

~Sparrow

Consider the flow of this conversation (I believe directed by the Holy Spirit) within the very serious topic of the 2nd Song of Moses! We are a peculiar goyim.

~Sparrow

Yes....I saw the movie so it makes perfect sense. :yes Two pairs or four pairs or.....are much better than one pair. I believe that is why we are here. To learn what He said to others and teach what He opened to us. And then the end result is....world peace in which His peculiar people are His servants.